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Do only the Ignorant and Gullible believe Holocaust Denial Propaganda?

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posted on Mar, 5 2007 @ 04:36 AM
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Nygdan

www.rense.com...

Can you explain those statistics please ?




posted on Mar, 5 2007 @ 10:46 AM
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Mazzroth re. post on Jewish Population Figues

There is nothing like a blatant display of ignorance to put a bounce in my step - What is your point exactly? That because the there are significantly more Jews in the World today that 5-6 million can't have died. Check the stats mate, the world population in 1939 was just over 1.9billion, today it is about six and half-billion. All populations Jews, Catholics etc have grown massively. Duh.

The figures you supply actually support the figures put forward post war of Jewish deaths.

The World population in 1939 was 1.9 billion. 62.5 million people died in the course of the war. And yet by 1950 it was 2.5billion. Do you know why? Because the living continue to reproduce.

To all concerned who have posted to this thread I state my case clearly. The Nazis systematically Murdered approximately 11 million people including approximately 6 million Jews, but also including gypsies, poles, homosexuals, freemason, intelligensia among many others. This is indisputable. Do I think that the figures of Jewish deaths have been exaggerated? Possibly, but unlikely, if you are going to exaggerate, do a good job, at the most the figure may be out by about 10-15%. The civilian (and POW) deaths at the hands of the Nazis, in total represent approximately 10% of the overall deaths of World War 2, including civilian deaths. Look at the figures, 15 million in China, 15-20 Million in Russia. I don't mean to be disrespectful to the Jews but 6 million is a drop in the Ocean.

Now the Jews lost about 38% of their population - as most of these Jews were in the areas hardest hit by the Nazi machine then this makes perfect sense. The Poles lost 2.2 million civilians and 3 million Jews - just over 16% of the population. Look at the history of this region and you will understand why it was racially decimated. Similarly the Societ Union lost 11.5 Million civilans and 1 million Jews. Two localities and that is 4 million. Understand the ethnicty of these areas and why there was a concentration of Jews in those areas and you will understand why they stood in the way of the Nazis and needed to be removed.


NB - Goldendragnet - still working with the information that you sent. Thank you for your help. It is both supporting the conclusions that I had already come to and raising even more questions. I had not contemplated the 'class' issues in Judaism before, the Zionists and the non-Zionists etc. I have been trying to marry what I have learned about the Rothschilds and what I know about WW2. The Zionism angle opens things up and things are starting to make sense. I'm up to my neck in the Middle-East right now, this quest for truth sure is hard work. Cheers.



posted on Mar, 5 2007 @ 11:11 AM
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Originally posted by KilgoreTrout
Mazzroth re. post on Jewish Population Figues

There is nothing like a blatant display of ignorance to put a bounce in my step - What is your point exactly?


Good luck with your research. I do think you are being very harsh in your words to mazz, it doesn't seem like ignorance at all to me and is a fair question for someone to wonder why only 3 years after the war the jewish population in europe had increased to pre-war figures, assuming that poll is correct the figures show that 8 million jews were in europe, many fled, before and after the war, 6 million murdered, which left only 2 million, and 3 years later the figures are close on 5 times higher. It is a fair question to ask of how such a dramatic increase in 3 years. There maybe a perfectly logical answer, but it isn't ignorance to think those figures odd. The baby-boom years followed the war. It does suggest there was quite an enormous boom if those figures are accurate.

[edit on 5-3-2007 by golddragnet]



posted on Mar, 5 2007 @ 11:41 AM
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I don't deny the reality of The Holocaust, but I believe that current education on the subject is seriously misleading, focusing narrowly on the deaths of "six million Jews," while nearly four times that many Russians (over 20 million) were obliterated between Hitler's advances and Stalin's death before retreat.

Add to that the 200,000+ "good German" citizens who were silenced in Hitler's rise to power, as well as the tidal wave of Allied casualties, and The Holocaust takes on vastly larger proportions. Unquestionably, there has been much historical revision regarding The Holocaust, both by those who deny it and by those who embrace it (blissfully ignoring the tens of millions of other deaths).

If the truth of The Holocaust be told, then let the whole truth be told: It was a holocaust of 51 million people. It was a Holocaust of all humanity, not merely of the Jews.

Nevertheless, some Holocaust embracers contend that the Jewish story is even more horrible than that of the other 45 million. In educating the successive generations, we have focused on these sensational deaths — that is precisely the revisionist approach that our educational systems have taken for decades. Pardon, but this sort of exclusive focus warps the human tragedy of World War, characterizing one group of victims as more deserving of pity and compassion than another.

We should teach the lessons of total human suffering — give the European Jews their chapter in the history of Hitler's assault on humanity, but let's not exclude the other 8 chapters of human suffering that resulted from that same reign of terror.

Actually, in the case of the 20+ million Russians, I really do believe that the death toll was played down in post-WWII years — during the Cold War (the revisionist effects of which can still be seen in history texts and courses right up to the present), expressing any sort of sympathy toward Russia, or acknowledging their losses, could get you branded a "pinko" or a "commie" or a "traitor," particularly during the 50s and 60s.

So, yes, I think that large portions of history are suppressed for political reasons. And other portions of "accepted history" (such as The Holocaust) are declared sacred ground, such that anyone who treads there had better tread lightly and had better ask no questions.

— Doc Velocity



posted on Mar, 5 2007 @ 12:08 PM
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The figures posted by mazzroth show that there were 15.7 million Jews world wide.(1939)

The figures post war show that there was 15.7 million Jews world wide after the War.(1948)?

If there was 15.7 million Jews before the war. With an increase in the population at that time of about 2% a year then from 1939 and 1949 there should have been 19 million Jews in 1949

Approx 4.5 million Jews killed by the Nazi's is prolly its lowest figure.

Yeah I don't see anything really wrong with these figures the Jews suffered stagnant population growth in these years due to a proportion of them being killed.

.



posted on Mar, 5 2007 @ 12:36 PM
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What exactly is this debate about huh?

Do people have an issue with the numbers of people killed, or is it the blatant maneveuring/profiteering and the ensuing political mileage of these figures by one of the lowest forms of life on Earth the Zionists who are as likely to be Christian as Jew.

To those who refuse to understand there was a holocaust STOP! and think about the title of this thread and keep thinking about it till your willpower weakens it shouldn't take too long.

.



posted on Mar, 5 2007 @ 01:08 PM
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Originally posted by carslake
What exactly is this debate about huh?

Well, I don't know what you think the debate is about, but I believe that elevating The Holocaust beyond the reach of modern historical inquiry is a crime against humanity. What we have seen, time and time again, is that when anyone questions or expresses doubt in any detail of The Holocaust, that inquiry is driven to the ground as "Holocaust Denial"...

If it was just a matter of pointing fingers and calling names — like calling George Bush or Hillary Clinton a Nazi — then I wouldn't pay it much heed. That's just angry, immature babble.

But today, right now, if you publically question The Holocaust, even from a scholarly, academic standpoint, then your career and reputation can be utterly ruined and your ass can even be imprisoned by the Thought Police who guard the "official story." It's bad enough to make me wonder who the real revisionists really are.

— Doc Velocity



posted on Mar, 5 2007 @ 02:20 PM
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Originally posted by Doc Velocity
But today, right now, if you publically question The Holocaust, even from a scholarly, academic standpoint, then your career and reputation can be utterly ruined and your ass can even be imprisoned by the Thought Police who guard the "official story." It's bad enough to make me wonder who the real revisionists really are.


it isn't a crime to deny the holocaust in the states so you can rest at night knowing the thought police won't be coming to take you away for ignoring the evidence and denying the facts.

questioning the number of jews killed is also not a crime and there's nothing wrong with it if you question it reasonably. What I mean is that saying 4 million jews died, not 6 is fine. I don't agree with it, nor does the actual evidence but to say it might be overstated is something that anyone can do. It's when you say the number is overstated by the jews to gain sympathy and it is part of a plot to yada yada yada that you touch nerves.

what I always find odd with revisionists (not you in particular) is that they claim the number is much lower, that it is a plot of some sort etc and then, when faced with the evidence they bring up the other numbers of people killed and they accept that, without question, and then they ask why nobody cares about the Roma or the Russia etc.



posted on Mar, 5 2007 @ 02:37 PM
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@DocVelocity

NO WHAT IS THE ISSUE REALLY ABOUT!!!

Are you denying there was holocaust because if your not theres nothing to debate about is there!

OOh was it 3.5 million or maybe 6 million. Well if its 3.5 million lets give back Israel to the Arabs and if its 6 million then give them some more weaponry.

Well as it happens the Nazi's didn't murder as many people as we thought. TBH it looks like the Nazi's were the good guys!

THERE WAS A HOLOCAUST. THE END

Oh yeah btw is that self portrait in your avatar. I've never seen you but I can imagine it's quite a good likeness.

.



posted on Mar, 5 2007 @ 02:59 PM
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Originally posted by carslake
Are you denying there was holocaust because if your not theres nothing to debate about is there! OOh was it 3.5 million or maybe 6 million. Well if its 3.5 million lets give back Israel to the Arabs and if its 6 million then give them some more weaponry. Well as it happens the Nazi's didn't murder as many people as we thought. TBH it looks like the Nazi's were the good guys! THERE WAS A HOLOCAUST. THE END Oh yeah btw is that self portrait in your avatar. I've never seen you but I can imagine it's quite a good likeness.

Here we go.

As I was saying, all you have to do is pose a question about The Holocaust — WHICH I DIDN'T DO — and these stinking, slimy little Thought Police wanna-bees come tunneling up from their pits of sewage to take a shot at you. In the case of carslake here, he doesn't actually qualify as a Thought Police wanna-bee, because even that activity involves more thought than carslake can independently generate.

— Doc Velocity



posted on Mar, 5 2007 @ 03:10 PM
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Originally posted by Crakeur
it isn't a crime to deny the holocaust in the states so you can rest at night knowing the thought police won't be coming to take you away for ignoring the evidence and denying the facts.

Believe me, the United States is one of the worst places to question The Holocaust, because the Holocaust-embracers here are far less educated on the subject than the Europeans. In the USA, the Holocaust-embracers are largely hate-filled ignoramuses who attack blindly anything that even treads the perimeter of The Holocaust, as is evidenced by the venomous garbage spewed forth by such prodigies as carslake.

In Europe, however, Holocaust deniers and those accused of being deniers can be brought up on charges and, in some countries, imprisoned. Gives us something to look forward to, doesn't it, as the USA is sapped of its sovereignty and turned over to One-World Government control.

— Doc Velocity

[edit on 3/5/2007 by Doc Velocity]



posted on Mar, 5 2007 @ 03:18 PM
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Originally posted by Doc VelocityBelieve me, the United States is one of the worst places to question The Holocaust, because the Holocaust-embracers here are far less educated on the subject than the Europeans. In the USA, a great number of the Holocaust embracers are simply hate-filled ignoramuses who attack blindly, as is evidenced by the venom-filled garbage spewed by such prodigies as carslake.

In Europe, however, Holocaust deniers and those accused of being deniers can be brought up on charges and, in some countries, imprisoned. Gives us something to look forward to, doesn't it, as the USA is sapped of its sovereignty and turned over to One-World Government control.


Perhaps the reason it is illegal to deny it in european countries is because they are more knowledgeable than their US counterparts and, as a result, their ignoring of the facts and their denial of the truth makes them seem that much more ridiculous in the eyes of those that cannot look past the mountains of evidence.



posted on Mar, 5 2007 @ 03:23 PM
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There is some question in my mind as to who the revisionists are.

As this thread points out, anti-semitism and racism feature heavily in the debate, it seems to me to be ingrained in us. Anti-semitism had been a part of white-european culture for as long as the Holy Roman Empire has existed.

Indeed there is much circumstantial evidence to suggest collusion of the Catholics with the Nazis in the extermination of the Jews. Arab Muslims also worked with the Nazis to prevent further Jewish settlement in Palestine. Both these groups had a vested interest in the destruction of Judaism. While the Palestinians just wanted to preserve their way of life, the Catholics wanted (and still want) the eradication or conversion of all Jewry.

Is it possible that the Catholics would encourage conflict between Arabs and Jews?

Is it possible that the Catholics would encourage the questioning of the validity of the data of the Holocaust to promote distrust and a sense of difference?

How about the Zionists and those who worked towards the creation of a Jewish Homeland in Palestine?

The Zionists refused to accept ransom exchanges for Hungarian Jews unless they could have passage to Palestine. The Nazis said no to Palestine. So the Hungarian jews died.

Is it possible to conceive that the Zionists didn't care about their own people, that they only cared about the acheivement of majority rule in Palestine?

Did the Zionists use the events of the second world war to encourage the establishment of Israel as their own state, which they had been engineering since 1915 when it passed to British governance?

The involvement of the Rothschild's in these machinations suggests to me that the possession of Israel had less to do with Judaism than it had to do with control of the Middle-East and the maintenance of free trade. That the Rothschild's are of jewish descent is in this case, more of a happy coincidence for them, and I would imagine, of much lament to the 'common-jew'.



posted on Mar, 5 2007 @ 03:30 PM
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Originally posted by Crakeur
Perhaps the reason it is illegal to deny it in european countries is because they are more knowledgeable than their US counterparts and, as a result, their ignoring of the facts and their denial of the truth makes them seem that much more ridiculous in the eyes of those that cannot look past the mountains of evidence.

Oh, well there's no question that the Europeans take a very dim and stern view of Holocaust-deniers. In Germany, for instance, you can be arrested for giving the Nazi salute, even mockingly. Austria keeps records of known Holocaust deniers in the world, and they'll meet you at the airport if you try to fly in for even a day — offering to send you back where you came from, in the best circumstances, and taking you to jail in the worst.

My point is, at least the Europeans are knowledgeable of the Holocaust and know the value of it, at least they charge you and bring you to trial for being a Holocaust-denier and have established specific penalties, which is far more fair than the public crucifixion you get in America at the hands of an ignorant, hate-filled mob.

— Doc Velocity



posted on Mar, 5 2007 @ 03:54 PM
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I wouldn't call people who see the evidence as anything but reasonable. the folks that see the documented proof of the holocaust and then, inexplicably, deny it's existence do so with an agenda backed usually by hate.



posted on Mar, 5 2007 @ 04:05 PM
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Originally posted by carslake
@DocVelocity
THERE WAS A HOLOCAUST. THE END

Oh yeah btw is that self portrait in your avatar. I've never seen you but I can imagine it's quite a good likeness.

.


What is your problem??? There is no need for that. And as for saying there was a Holocaust, the end, what sort of crap is that. The End.
No it wasn't the end. The world had to learn the lessons, Israel was paritally a result, europe and the rest of the world had to pick up the pieces. If you have read this thread it is about the causes and effects of the holocaust as much as anything. If THE END is all you can add then why did you bother, and no need for insulting other posters.

Both Doc Velocity and Kilgore have made good points. If you don't like the thread then you don't have to contribute.

One thing I would disagree with is that there isn't even nearly as much anti-semitism in western europe as the press make out, these things are all over-hyped. Parts of the world have progressed alot, and the media do try to sensationalise everything. There are anti-israel feelings but that is political, its not the same as being anti-jewish. There are many jews who don't support israeli policies.
There are probably more anti-arab feelings in the world now than anti-jewish, GW Bush, Blair and the gang are doing their best to fuel distrust of muslims to promote support for their bogus war on terror.
And if someone questions what happened in WW2, asks for confirmation as to how many jews were killed doesn't mean they are anti-jewish. Racist accusations are being flung around far too easy, if someone is asking questions don't jump to the conlusion that they are racist. It is good to ask questions and get verification from sources other than the mainstream media.



posted on Mar, 5 2007 @ 05:04 PM
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Originally posted by Crakeur
I wouldn't call people who see the evidence as anything but reasonable. the folks that see the documented proof of the holocaust and then, inexplicably, deny it's existence do so with an agenda backed usually by hate.

Let's just clear the air right now, so we're all on the same page. The Europeans were there at Ground Zero as Nazi Germany engulfed the Old World. More than anyone else can even begin to imagine, Europeans know the rotten truth of The Holocaust — it happened because most of the European citizenry let it happen. They didn't act when the flags started going up in the mid-1930s, and they paid the price.

What value did Europe derive from The Holocaust? They now know, perhaps better than anyone else, that you can't just let a hate-filled mob run the show. That's why the Nuremberg Trials took place, instead of publically impaling those Nazi sons of bitches on splintered pikes for their war crimes. After all the horror the Nazis inflicted, they still received a trial. That is what distinguished the Allies from the Axis — no matter how horrendous the crime, the Allies had to rise above their fury and apply a fair review of evidence before rendering a verdict.

If we had started burning the Nazi war criminals alive in ovens without a hearing, the Allies would have been no better than the Nazis, you see.

Now, today in America, aside from the few thousand Holocaust survivors who yet live here, our population largely knows nothing of The Holocaust. We don't appreciate the value of that grisly lesson — and you can see it every day in America, our Justice system is collapsing, replaced with very public and very prejudiced trials in the press. People are condemned for alleged crimes before they ever come to trial. Forget the Rule of Law, we're becoming a nation of Mob Rule.... Which is very much how the socialist Nazis came to power in Germany.

And that's why I say it's more dangerous to be a Holocaust-denier in America today — because we're already on a slippery slope to throwing people into ovens for their thoughts and words alone.

— Doc Velocity

[edit on 3/5/2007 by Doc Velocity]



posted on Mar, 5 2007 @ 05:04 PM
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Your my problem!!!



posted on Mar, 5 2007 @ 05:29 PM
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Originally posted by carslake


Your my problem!!!


Your post doesn't do you any credit, the moderators have been asking posters to cut the totally pointless one-liners. If you weren't going to try to make any sense why did you bother trying to add to this thread.

www.abovetopsecret.com...



posted on Mar, 5 2007 @ 05:49 PM
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Originally posted by Doc Velocity
More than anyone else can even begin to imagine, Europeans know the rotten truth of The Holocaust — that most of the European citizenry let it happen. They didn't act when the flags started going up in the mid-1930s, and they paid the price.

What value did Europe derive from The Holocaust?


while I agree with this, I will add that there was many a case of citizens capitalizing on the removal of jewish homeowners and jewish business so there was some motivation to toe the proverbial line when it came to the nazis. Not all of europe was complicit and there were some who did try and fight back or, at the very least, try and aid the jews and other "undersireables" but there were those that seemingly had no problems aiding the Nazis in their quest for a pure race. As I stated earlier, my brother in law's mother was shot by polish neighbors who were not nazis. They raided her home and simply didn't want to give up the house.

Of course they understand it better and yet there still seems to be more outspoken anti-semitism in europe and it seems to be on the rise of late. Could it be an issue of blaming the jews for the ills that befell them as a result of the war? Sure. Could it simply be the same old scapegoat works better than a new one? sure.

I do also agree that the US judicial system is not a perfect machine and it does have it's failings but, as a whole, it is far better than most.



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