Originally posted by Doc Velocity

Originally posted by carslake
Are you denying there was holocaust because if your not theres nothing to debate about is there! OOh was it 3.5 million or maybe 6 million. Well if its 3.5 million lets give back Israel to the Arabs and if its 6 million then give them some more weaponry. Well as it happens the Nazi's didn't murder as many people as we thought. TBH it looks like the Nazi's were the good guys! THERE WAS A HOLOCAUST. THE END Oh yeah btw is that self portrait in your avatar. I've never seen you but I can imagine it's quite a good likeness.

Here we go.

As I was saying, all you have to do is pose a question about The Holocaust — WHICH I DIDN'T DO — and these stinking, slimy little Thought Police wanna-bees come tunneling up from their pits of sewage to take a shot at you. In the case of carslake here, he doesn't actually qualify as a Thought Police wanna-bee, because even that activity involves more thought than carslake can independently generate.

— Doc Velocity

Good i'm glad you got down to my level it makes it alot easier to talk to an equal.

Your nature isn't lost on me friend. The question was good natured and I'm still waiting for an answer to it, you chose to be exclusive with your 'Well, I don't know what you think the debate is about' sounds like pomposity to me.

I take it from your drivel that your issue is not being allowed to question the whole Holocaust event, go cry on a anti-masons shoulder they aren't allowed to question either. And anyway what the hell has that to do with the actual Holocaust, so why don't you start another thread on the 'thought police'.

Always with the constant derailing, hardly ever do we find concensus or a persons opinion is changed through reasoned argument, far too much does ego get in the way of what is really important here.

There is F**K ALL to debate here the Holocaust is fact, like I said is this about numbers or that more improtantly people aren't willing to have this subject used for intellectual masturbation.

There are far more important subjects for us to find concensus on than rehashing the holocaust. So why do people bring it up.

And again your pomposity draws me into some serious issue, your not well intentioned from the start are you? Don't ever 'you' me again with the intention of being dismissive, you'll only get purile comments.


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[edit on 5-3-2007 by carslake]

Originally posted by carslake
And again your pomposity draws me into some serious issue, your not well intentioned from the start are you? Don't ever 'you' me again with the intention of being dismissive, you'll only get purile comments.

I'll give you this, you have the market cornered on puerile remarks. You blew your entire credibility when you launched into unwarranted personal attacks in your very first reply to my post. So you can save your ultimatums for your spineless and illiterate peers. Now shove off, mate.

— Doc Velocity

Originally posted by golddragnet

Originally posted by carslake
@DocVelocity
THERE WAS A HOLOCAUST. THE END

Oh yeah btw is that self portrait in your avatar. I've never seen you but I can imagine it's quite a good likeness.

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What is your problem??? There is no need for that. And as for saying there was a Holocaust, the end, what sort of crap is that. The End.
No it wasn't the end. The world had to learn the lessons, Israel was paritally a result, europe and the rest of the world had to pick up the pieces. If you have read this thread it is about the causes and effects of the holocaust as much as anything. If THE END is all you can add then why did you bother, and no need for insulting other posters.

Both Doc Velocity and Kilgore have made good points. If you don't like the thread then you don't have to contribute.

One thing I would disagree with is that there isn't even nearly as much anti-semitism in western europe as the press make out, these things are all over-hyped. Parts of the world have progressed alot, and the media do try to sensationalise everything. There are anti-israel feelings but that is political, its not the same as being anti-jewish. There are many jews who don't support israeli policies.
There are probably more anti-arab feelings in the world now than anti-jewish, GW Bush, Blair and the gang are doing their best to fuel distrust of muslims to promote support for their bogus war on terror.
And if someone questions what happened in WW2, asks for confirmation as to how many jews were killed doesn't mean they are anti-jewish. Racist accusations are being flung around far too easy, if someone is asking questions don't jump to the conlusion that they are racist. It is good to ask questions and get verification from sources other than the mainstream media.

Your my problem now!!! what the hell are you DocVelocity's mother, he can fight his own battles, what axe have you got to grind with me, can you be honest I doubt it. And I'll contribute where i like.

The Holocaust stands alone nothing can be changed about it apart from the numbers, but no you want to give us a history lesson and point out I've got an agenda that is some kind of anti-racist slant that everybody I find cause with must be so and i'm a politically correct do gooder. No you found issue with me, my initial comments were angled at the Holocaust revisionists, it was DocVelocity who showed his smart assed nature at me or this would still be sweetness and light.

If it were'nt for the T&C we could have a proper conversation about it, the way I like insults and evrything. And if your looking for why I'm being like that look at my reply to DocVelocity your using it for intellectual football its sad, if KilgoreTrout wants some knowledge tell her to go read a book.



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Originally posted by Doc Velocity

Originally posted by carslake
And again your pomposity draws me into some serious issue, your not well intentioned from the start are you? Don't ever 'you' me again with the intention of being dismissive, you'll only get purile comments.

I'll give you this, you have the market cornered on puerile remarks. You blew your entire credibility when you launched into unwarranted personal attacks in your very first reply to my post. So you can save your ultimatums for your spineless and illiterate peers. Now shove off, mate.

— Doc Velocity

Are you a complete f**kin loon what initiated it was your high handed pompous manner in the first place. I'm not arguing precedence when its balck and white in front of you.

Reread the thread.

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[edit on 5-3-2007 by carslake]

Originally posted by Doc Velocity
It's bad enough to make me wonder who the real revisionists really are.

How does that work as reasoning you reverse the logic of it, who the are the revisionists then?

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[edit on 5-3-2007 by carslake]

[edit on 5-3-2007 by carslake]

Answer my question what is this debate about?

C'mon you've got me interested now.

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Originally posted by ConspiracyNut23
So let me get this right… Holocaust Deniers are not denying that the Holocaust took place? They are simply claiming that not as many as 6 million were killed? Is this correct?

If so, this is very telling in itself.

If, I was to do research into the Holocaust and somehow figure out that 4 million Jews, rather than 6 million died in WW2, would I be branded a Holocaust denier?

If so, there’s definitely something wrong here…

There’s a difference between saying something didn’t happen (Denying) and saying the figures might be off, or exaggerated. Why the newspeak?

I know, I know for all the PC readers out there, the actual numbers killed doesn’t really matter it’s the actual atrocity of the crimes that matters, etc. etc. However it does matter when the actual numbers cannot be examined by anyone without losing their tenure or reputation.


[edit on 2/3/07 by ConspiracyNut23]

I think you are seeing this topic for what it is.
It is technicaly forbidden to research if the numbers that where stated are correct.
There are people in jail for this fact.
They dont deny there was a holocaust, that is just 3rd party wordplay i think, they want to research the matter from their own point of view.

I believe we all have the right to do this and i find it very strange that is forbidden in a growing amount of countries in the world.
The subject itself never realy interested me but somehow it keeps popping back up.

Is there something to hide ?
We can research most other genocides so why not this one.
I find it very strange and the more i see these things comming by the more i like to see what is going on.

Before people flame me away.

I do not deny the holocaust !

But i like to see both sides of most stories.

Originally posted by carslake
Answer my question what is this debate about? C'mon you've got me interested now.

As I have already stated — which you would know, if you were capable of assimilating the information — the "debate" is about who is the revisionist? Earlier I wrote: It's bad enough to make me wonder who the real revisionists really are. Unquestionably, there has been much historical revision regarding The Holocaust, both by those who deny it and by those who embrace it (blissfully ignoring the tens of millions of other deaths).

And that's what I've been saying all along. And, no, you're not setting the course of the "debate"... I'll decide what part you play in this discussion.

— Doc Velocity

Originally posted by jaamaan

Originally posted by ConspiracyNut23
So let me get this right… Holocaust Deniers are not denying that the Holocaust took place? They are simply claiming that not as many as 6 million were killed? Is this correct?

If so, this is very telling in itself.

If, I was to do research into the Holocaust and somehow figure out that 4 million Jews, rather than 6 million died in WW2, would I be branded a Holocaust denier?

If so, there’s definitely something wrong here…

There’s a difference between saying something didn’t happen (Denying) and saying the figures might be off, or exaggerated. Why the newspeak?

I know, I know for all the PC readers out there, the actual numbers killed doesn’t really matter it’s the actual atrocity of the crimes that matters, etc. etc. However it does matter when the actual numbers cannot be examined by anyone without losing their tenure or reputation.


[edit on 2/3/07 by ConspiracyNut23]

I think you are seeing this topic for what it is.
It is technicaly forbidden to research if the numbers that where stated are correct.
There are people in jail for this fact.
They dont deny there was a holocaust, that is just 3rd party wordplay i think, they want to research the matter from their own point of view.

I believe we all have the right to do this and i find it very strange that is forbidden in a growing amount of countries in the world.
The subject itself never realy interested me but somehow it keeps popping back up.

Is there something to hide ?
We can research most other genocides so why not this one.
I find it very strange and the more i see these things comming by the more i like to see what is going on.

Before people flame me away.

I do not deny the holocaust !

But i like to see both sides of most stories.

This is simply not true. See the link provided by Golddragnet. The Auschwitz museum has acknowledged research that is contrary to the original numbers and those amended numbers have become a matter of historiacal record (since 1992 most publications use the later figures). There is nothing to fear from properly conducted empirical research, what is in question is people who frequent what are essentially racist web-sites and draw their conclusions from what is simply opinion and conjecture. As in there are plenty of people out there who want to see a conspiracy in everything, but are unwilling to get off their butts and do any research for themselves. Those who oppose everything for the sake of opposing something.

There is ignorance all around us. And opposition for its own sake is not helpful.

@DocVelocity

I don't think people who accept the official history need to alter, correct or amend anything to do with the actual numbers of lives lost. So reversing the logic in the term Holocaust Revisionism is a non starter with me.

The charge is from what I gather that the total number of Jews killed by the Nazi's has been distorted so to create sympathy for the Jewish plight.

True Zionists have manipulated such a situation for their own end, the creation of the state of Israel.

The Jews have some just cause, they have been persecuted badly.

What upsets me and I think alot of people is that this whole subject yet again appears as an example of how the basis of democracy is circumvented. Parts of the Western political/financial establishment whether it be Jewish or Christian have taken it upon themselves over the last 150 years to make decisions about the Jewish Question ie Zionism and the Jewish homeland.

Yet agin we see the establishment make decisions for us which have proved to be wrong for humanity. The Christians have been drawn into open conflict with Muslims who are rightfully the aggrieved party.

What is our motivation to question the whole Jewish situation is it the fact we are being manipulated so we consent to a Jewish homeland. Or are we just plain anti-semites.

My motivation is to move on from 'how many Jews killed' to the newer and better questions which this situation has created. In the larger contemporary context, Who created this situation, Why does it persist and the most important how we rub out the undemocratic parasitic element that plagues humanity.

I know this is outside the scope of the debate, but I resist the need to regurgitate the minutae of how many Jews were killed.


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Originally posted by carslake
I only came on here to offer Nygdan some support

That was already more than obvious, you didn't have to spell it out at all.

Originally posted by golddragnet

Originally posted by carslake
I only came on here to offer Nygdan some support

That was already more than obvious, you didn't have to spell it out at all.

I thought Nygdan was doing a good job all on his own. And if Nygdan and I share some opinions then he gets my support. I'm not prepared to see the guy get swept away in an avalanche of crap that i'm opposed to as well.

Are we going to let it go, did my comments bother you that much? it's difficult sometimes in not gaining satisfaction from an exchange like this.

As is often the case GoldDragnet I take more umbrage with people's attitude than the content of their post and thats my fault. Did I tarnish your ego well I'm sorry about that(truly I am).

Now are you going to be the better man and make and keep the peace with me for now.

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Yeah your damn right Mazzroth. They will eventually reap what they sow.

Man did you read the first comment from that ex-paratrooper IMO thats good evidence for an indictment at a war crimes tribunal.

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History has always been written by the victors aimed at justifying their agenda and putting the losers in the worst light possible. Much of what is accepted as "official version" is based on distortion, half truths even propaganda So only a revisionist's who debunks the Holocaust exclusively to cast suspicion upon Jewish integrity, can be labeled as hate motivated. But even a few bad guys hardly renders all Holocaust revisionists as suspect. Maybe the anti-Semitic revisionists were deliberately planted to divert creditability from serious researchers?

Investigative reporter Michael A. Hoffman wrote revisionist histories on both the Holocaust and the buried history of America's White slave trade. Does this mean he must hate Blacks as well as Jews? Or could it be his only agenda is to uncover truth? What else could he hope to gain by this except the wrath, criticism and skepticism of his peers and the mainstream consciousness? As I see it, It takes a real hero to sacrifice himself in the name of truth. Being an ethically motivated vegetarian I too know what it's like to be attacked for challenging the status quo.

Why did it take a hundred years for people to accept the sun and not the earth was the center of the universe? Fear! And the spawn of fear, hatred.

Dollmonster

You hit the nail on the head I think, the people here shouting Anti-Semite aren't interested in "the" actual truth but only in "a" version that suits their agenda. That agenda is multi faceted but mostly wants us to feel sorrow and pity for the sufferings of a singular race of WW2 victims and not the whole human race that suffered losses ( Poles, Russians and eventually Germans ).

To claim exclusivity in the suffering stakes sends alarm bells ringing as to what can be achieved by this grandstanding and finger pointing. If it were to be used only for war crimes convictions then it would be noble, but alas its been used to propagate financial restitutions and the displacement of Palestinians from their Country. Not to mention never ending conflicts in the region and attrocities on minority groups just like they claimed were done unto them in WW2.

This is the ultimate of ironies and the deeper you look into this act of hypocracy the more you question the official story of the holocaust. Why would people who claim to be singled out and persecuted against then go and do exactly the same thing to the Palestinians ???? that is question I ask anyone here who claims I am a racist.

If someone raped your sister would you more than likely start raping women or stand up against the very act ? to ensure it never happend again!.

OK, now I think what exactly happened to the Jews during the Holocaust will probably never be known. Yes, there was a holocaust, Yes, lots of people died, how many died or whether or not the Germans really really really thought they could kill all Jews probably can't be proven.

I disagree with this Jews were killed merely for being Jews theory. Personally I think extreme distrust of the Jews who were blamed for Germany getting the shaft at Versailles was to blame. It should also be noted that the Jewish people were the foremost communist at the time, and communism was a viewed as an excuse to destroy Christianity and enslave mankind, with the Jews as masters. Crazy theory, I know, but this is what people thought. Also, Karl Marx-Jew. Joe Stalin-Jew. Lenin-I'm pretty sure he was a Jew too, but I've been told he's not.

I'm only trying to explain what happened in WWII and not trying to justify it, because it can't be justified.

Lenin was half-jewish. You have missed the most important name of the russian revolution, Trotsky, also jewish. Trotsky was intended to lead Communist Russia, he was funded by the NWO, he was their man to lead the NWO Russia. You are correct when you say communism was intended to enslave mankind, in fact that is exactly what it did in eastern europe. And almost everyone who benefited of the russian revolution in the early days was jewish. The plan almost worked perfectly, but not everything can go according to plan, especially not something on the scale of the russian revolution, the result of that revolution was totally manipulated by the west. The communists were actually losing that revolution until the "whites" efforts to win the war were sabotaged by the west. To the amazement and bewilderment of the leaders of the "whites" the west destroyed their efforts to win. The west was fighting Germany at the time, and obviously it should have been in the wests interests to keep Russia in the war.
Trotsky had been intended to lead, but first Lenin was able to seize control but Trotsky was being lined up to take over after Lenin. Trotsky later became ill and was recovering at the Black Sea at a critical time and Stalin was able to take over the new russia.