Originally posted by KilgoreTrout
Individuals suffered not numbers.

That is a very important point that isn't emphasised at all, it is such a simple but so significant point but it is lost in the reasoning so often. The media and the manipulators want to reduce everything to oversimplified arguements, more people suffered here than there, so this is more significant etc, but of course it isn't more significant, it is equally significant for the individuals suffering, the suffering and deaths of certain individuals shouldn't be more important than any other innocent individuals suffering, but the media are used to paint everything in black and white. The issue of holocaust denial being criminalised in europe is being raised again. In any society of free-speech questioning the holocaust or even denying it shouldn't be criminalised, it should merely be regarded as misguided or even foolish, if you are to accept official account. If you question or deny the deaths of races other than the jewish deaths in WW2 it isn't criminalised, what message is that trying to give?

Originally posted by golddragnet
[If you question or deny the deaths of races other than the jewish deaths in WW2 it isn't criminalised, what message is that trying to give?

The message is: "We are Zionists. Mess with us and we will hurt you."

Originally posted by golddragnet
In any society of free-speech questioning the holocaust or even denying it shouldn't be criminalised, it should merely be regarded as misguided or even foolish, if you are to accept official account. If you question or deny the deaths of races other than the jewish deaths in WW2 it isn't criminalised, what message is that trying to give?

You are so right and this is one of the reasons I have had to change my opinion. By criminalising denial it gives the ill-informed and as you say 'foolish' credence that they do not deserve. It implies that there is something wrong, that there is something to hide. If I was to say that the homosexuals deserved to die - as some people have - will I get arrested - I don't think so, I would get attacked and debate may ensue, but I would not be criminalised just treated with the contempt such remarks deserve.

By focusing the attention on the numbers we detract from the real suffering that was experienced - by calling it the holocaust, an act of ethnic cleansing we have detracted from the crimes. Yes the Jew was painted as sub-human in the aryan ideology but so were the slavic races. All good honest, hardworking people, villified and annihilated in the expansion of the Reich. They needed their land, houses, belongings for the aryans to realise themselves as the super-race - this was the very basis of the volkische religion. They even stole children to nazify them and enrich the gene-pool.

We see the same principle today with the 'muslim terrorists' - all muslims tarred with the same brush, Turkey desperate to remain neutral, understanding what is going on, Pakistan toadying US and UK favour - each in their own way trying to survive the inevitable. We want control of the Persian Gulf and we will stop at nothing until we have it. Through these eyes their are no non-combatants - Women are the wives and mothers of terrorists, children are future terrorists - the same tactics that have been used in ideological warfare since Herod and probably before. And everytime we help out by falling into the trap of generalising, looking for a focus of hate to stop us questioning what is really going on.

Nice clip - even Liz Taylor it must have been the Burton/Taylor diamond that sent her over to the dark side. Seriously though....I read something interesting the other day that seem to fit in with this line of discussion.

It is from The Gnostics by Sean Martin, the following passage relates to the Carpocration School, which were active in Alexandria aroung the 1st century,

"(They) taught reincarnation and believed that, in order to be liberated from the material world and its archons, a person had to experience all that life has to offer; saturated by experience, the person eventually tires of earthly existence....This process could happen over the course of many lifetimes."

Similarly the Cainites had to "pass through all experiences in order to be liberated from them."

These beliefs are in someway similar to the Amish, who when they are of age are sent out to experience the world and can choose whether to return to the fold or not, not my point though...

The Church Fathers at the time translated this to mean that they practiced vice and debauchery, which there is absolutely no evidence to suggest that they did, it wasmerely figurative. Another such group the Borborites were accused of ritual homosexuality and smearing themselves with menstrual blood and semen and eating foetuses. (where do I sign up, sounds marvellous!!!).

Do I think that George Bush and Tony Blair think that they will get their reward in heaven for their acts against the infidel? Well not believing in the concept in the first place puts me in the wrong place to judge this. The Bush family have certainly demonstrated their materialism haven't they? Blair, I just don't know, but I can't help but wonder what on earth has happened to Cherie....this does tell me something is not right in the house of Blair.

I have tried to imagine whether they think they will be reincarnated and that they will be born over and over again for as long as they abuse power and worship the material. I find that difficult to believe, doesn't mean they don't believe it. It doesn't mean that is not true either. I could be wrong, there may be life everlasting other than on a molecular level, which is the only afterlife that I truly believe in. Too philosophical.

When I read the passage that I quote above, I was reminded of the film you posted of the priest fresh out of the seminary so easily converted to satanism. It made me think, it is so easy to twist and be twisted. No wonder the pastor is called the shepherd and the congregation his flock.

Some of those clips are good, and relevant, and there are parts that are OTT , not sure why they felt it necessary to put Liz Taylor in that clip, but still the message of the clip is still relevant, just have to use our own judgement as to which parts we "filter" out and which are correct. There is a thread (probably many threads) on this website about whether Bush made that handsign with the Queen intentionally or not, well that other clip shows that it certainly was no accident, regardless of the motives behind it. But what motives would you expect from a member of the Jesuit-created Skull and Bones Club, formerly known as the BrotherHood of Death!!! The US president is a member of the BrotherHood of Death< what must the Iraqis think of the American invaders if they know the President of the invading country is joined a Brotherhood of Death club. He has certainly inflicted alot of death on the Iraqis.

You will find the the Church fathers didn't want the truth to get in the way of whichever interpretation they chose to put on a story.

Who knows what is going through Blairs mind, apparently he is predicted to make up to $40million in the near future from various promotions after he officially resigns. The people of Afganistan and Iraq will be very pleased for him, I am sure after the stresses he endured while helping to turn those countries into bloodbaths he will need a comfortable retirement!

I think you are refering to Bill Schnoebelen. I liked his presentation, seemed a likeable chap, and his story is very interesting.

uberarcanist:

Crakeur, your wiki article hurts you more than it helps you. It's clear as day in there that both Lenin and Stalin condemned anti-Semitism. It's also clear as day that the Great Purges were not about anti-Semitism but rather about killing the enemies of Stalin.

If Stalin hated Jews so much, he could have done a much better job of reducing their numbers.

Did you ever read the Anti Soviet "Bloc of Rights and Trotskyites" 1938 or what is better known here as the Purge Trials?

I wonder why is it only the Holocaust that has the number questioned.
Does it matter? as if the world would have gone in a different direction if it was only 1 million Jews instead of 6 million. Just look at the shock and anger when we found out 3000+ people were killed in 9/11.

I wonder why don't we see debates over number of Japanese citizens who died in Hiroshima and Nagasaki? What about the civilian deaths in Vietnam?

An atrocity is an atrocity.

How can a group of human beings carried out these heinous crimes against other human beings is the question that we should be asking.

The discovery of the mass atrocities in WW2 was the first time in history that events were recorded and distributed widely. That is the reason for the outrage; scenes that would never have been allowed by censors in the early days of TV and in print were shown as righteous indignation overcame the nausea generated by their viewing. People of all walks of life were able to see the proof of mass burials, starving prisoners, human indignities on a huge scale, total indifference to sensibilties of mankind.

It caused a universal condemnation and outrage, naturally , and added to the mix was the fact that Jews, and many Zionists, were of course behind efforts to perpetualize the memories of the cruelties so that not only would they ' never happen again ' but the issue could get the jews a homeland as well: Palestine. They wanted a unified homeland after being vilfied and chased all over Europe as scapegoats for the Nazi's.

You have to understand the mindset of the average Jew, and I say this with NO rancor; The average Jew counts on his or her ' salvation ' or whatever term one wants to use for a positive result when one enters the spirit realm , from the fact that they are a Jew. In other words, being a Jew is enough and as long as they identify with their heritage and maybe observe some rituals, then they will have Gods favor. That leaves them free from any qualms about matters of business and personal habits, etc.

I am generalizing, of course, but after knowing many Jews for many years I can say that they are usually shrewd, intelligent and sincere, but cagy and sly also..willing to ignore suffering or ruin for another if profit is made, no guilt about indulging sinful personal pleasures. Naturally, the more observant the Jew, the more moral and upright. Hasidic jews are strict and follow countless rituals to try and be worthy of Gods favor; they believe in the LAW.

But, the average Jew who doesn't go to Temple but once in a while, if ever, seem to alienate people who do not share their instincts; its like a pack of jackals , they tend not to attract many other animals as friends. I really hope this doesnt sound bad; I am NOT a bigot and I like the majority of my jewish friends very much; they are loyal and caring; just don't date their sisters and don't get your feelings hurt when you are excluded from their events to a degree; it is not personal, it is just the way things are.

Having said all that, here is a true story that my dear Dad told me several times, warning me to never forget it and to never believe the people who deny the Holocaust or at least massive and brutal death camps and atrocities on a huge scale. Here is his story:

Dad was a combat medic, front lines, Army, 3rd, Patton commanding. In Germany. The Russians had taken Buchenwald concentration camp and secured it the first day; the next day dad and a team of others enetered Buchenwald to try and asist in emergency medicine and assess the scene.

dad described to me the horror of seeing the human skin lampshades with his own eyes, in addition to other furnishings. He told me of mass mounds of bodies and starving men laying everywhere. He had seen a lot up til that time, but that really got him. The commandant of the camp, the notorious " Bitch of Buchenwald ", Ilse Koch, had fled before their arrivel.

Dad would not or could not go into details and never talked about the war at all, but he let me know in no uncertain terms to never believe those who say that the horros, the really bad stuff, never existed because he was an eyewitness to it. He did not mention gas chambers or ovens, but I will ask him next time I see him; he is still alive, thankfully, and sharp at 84.

I have no idea how many Jews were killed, but it was a lot. And there was no justification for it.Jews may seem a bit different to those who are outside of their customs, and this doesn't help in keeping people from making assumptions and mistaking natural tendencies for evil intent.

Anytime a group gets chosen as the new threat, they suffer the consequences of ignorance and fear. Just because there are many unsavory characters of Jewsih origins and beliefs, does not mean that most are of like manner; most are great folks with big hearts for family and a great deal to offer the world. We must all make sure that no group is ever again chosen for deletion, learn from the lessons of the past and always say NEVER AGAIN anytime that bigotry rears its head.

I am suspicious about anything I hear, see and read lol. I'm not a denier but I have suspicions on the Holocaust story and how it is being used by Zionists to this day to silence critics of Israel. I cant trust a Zionist no matter what, they're notorious liars and are an enemy of the Jews and the rest of us as far as I am concerned.

Originally posted by somethingaintright
I am suspicious about anything I hear, see and read lol.

Its politically incorrect to be skeptical of the "Holocaust" ( Burnt Offering ) so I guess it would be ok to take a position of it happened but you are merely querying the numbers involved ?.

The answer to that is a big phat NO!!! that number is 6 million and if you disagree we will also throw you in jail. Ok so its safe to say 6 million would be acceptable but some of the accounts of witnesses painted the Germans in an evil light, perhaps we could be skeptical of a German Gaurd tearing a Jew in half with his bare hands ??? see were Im going with this ?

Originally posted by hexagram23
Greetings,

To the OP, I would like to suggest an excellent documentary by Errol Morris called Mr. Death: The Rise and fall of Fred A. Leuchter Jr.

Thank you Hex23. I've read the synopsis and it looks interesting on a number of levels. Not sure about Errol Morris' credibility judging by his filmography - but open mind and all that, it has interviews with David Irving I believe, whose career has certainly been blighted for his WW2 revisionism. And that was before he even said that there were no gas chambers, it was telling the truth, not lies that first landed him in trouble with the historical establishment.

Anyway thanks for the recommendation I will keep a look out for it.

I believe that it is not only ignorant and gullible people that are taken in by those who either deny the holocaust outright or claim that it wasn't as bad as it actually was. I also believe that even the best of us can be taken in by such false claims simply because thses people simply do not like the minority group that was persecuted like the Jews were in WWII. That even goes for all the other cases in history where genocide has taken place, from ancient Babylonia to current day Darfur! It is true that in a case like this that a crime against one is a crime against all because it never seems to end.

i dont know id any one said this because i only got half way and was so appauled by people saying that the hollocaust was a fake.

may i point out that the nazis didnt just put jews in the death camps they also but, homosexuals, blacks, the mentally ill and the disabledbasically anyone that wasnt perfect or arrian(not sure how to spell it
) any one that wasnt blonde haired and blue eyed was classed as inferrior.

such as a german woman would not be allowed to marry a nazi soldier with out checks to see if there was any jewish history in there family and such.

it was only until the nazis were starting to lose the war and most ofthe 'arien' men were killed that they started to use soldier with traits not assoiated with arien ideals.

god it gets my hackles up when i hear this stuff.

[edit on 1/01/2007 by kerrichin]