There have been a couple of threads recently regarding the denial of the holocaust. The most profound thing about these threads is the amazing lack of what I consider the most basic education - it was only 70 odd years ago - not very long ago in the scheme of things - and yet the majority of people spouting revisionist theories seem to have absolutely no understanding of modern history.

What I would really like to know is if it is just ignorance of the history, poor education or whether anyone has any real evidence that the death camps are a fabrication.

By real evidence I mean primary sources, first hand witness accounts etc.

So to all members of ATS, who understand that research isn't just picking out the first thing that Google throws out at you, please provide me with real evidence that the death camps are a myth.

I will consider a lack of any replies as a response in itself.

Oh come on - there's got to be someone out there willing to take up the gauntlet.

Is that tumble weed?

I'll give it a try...

There are many deniers out there who are very well educated indeed, at least perpourt to be...

It's not so much ignorance driven, as it is agenda driven. These men and women have an agenda of hatred or politics. As we all know, blaming the Jew usually works...and denying some or all of the Holocaust is part and partial to their agenda of blaming the Jew for all the ills of the world.

I don't know if this is what you were looking for, but its a start...

First of all, the term 'holocaust denial' is a misnomer.
Very few, if any, actually 'deny' that the holocaust happened.
The problems arise when you look at the numbers and the logistics of
1. Gathering 6 million Jews. How many jews werent gathered up?
How big was the Jewish population? Wouldnt 6 million be about 110% of the European Jewish population?
2. Destroying 6 million bodies. Do you have any idea how much fuel it would take to burn 6 million bodies? Why would they waste precious fuel during a war?
3. Decimating the work force. The Germans used the prisoners as a source of slave labor. Why would they want to destroy a slave work force of 6 million?

Its all out there, the facts and myths alike.
If you blindly accept what has been taught to you without looking into the feasability of something, very often you will find yourself ill-informed and biased.

That being said I should probably state my views for the record.
Yes, the Holocaust happened.
No, I dont believe the numbers are accurate.
Yes, the holocaust was horrible.
No, I dont believe the Jewish holocaust is any worse then the Native American Holocaust, or the Soviet holocaust, or any number of other mass slaughters thoughout history.

Originally posted by 11Bravo
2. Destroying 6 million bodies. Do you have any idea how much fuel it would take to burn 6 million bodies? Why would they waste precious fuel during a war?

I guess you've never seen the video and photo evidence of the bodies being dumped in mass graves.

Originally posted by 11Bravo
No, I dont believe the Jewish holocaust is any worse then the Native American Holocaust, or the Soviet holocaust, or any number of other mass slaughters thoughout history.

A holocaust is bad, no matter who is on the receiving end. The one difference here is that the Nazis set out to eliminate a group of people because they were different. While I won't argue that the concept is the same, the Nazi's took it to a whole new level, using their prisoners (not just jews) for slave labor, using them for medical testing and other such atrocities. The systematic killing of a person or group of people is an awful thing.

Were 6 million killed? would it make it the deniers happy if the number were reduced? I would think that the more aggressive deniers would be happier if the number were higher as in their eyes, not enough were killed.

ignorant?

I think so

uneducated?

I think so.

How anyone can deny it happened, with all the evidence that the meticulous record keeping nazis left behind (including survivors) is beyond me. that's like staring at the sun and denying it exists. it is frightening to me that anyone could be so filled with hatred for a group of people that they can simply ignore the facts.

Originally posted by 11Bravo
1. Gathering 6 million Jews. How many jews werent gathered up?
How big was the Jewish population? Wouldnt 6 million be about 110% of the European Jewish population?

This is a good example of the ignorant side of the equation.
2. Destroying 6 million bodies. Do you have any idea how much fuel it would take to burn 6 million bodies? Why would they waste precious fuel during a war?
THis is a good example of the gullible side of holocaust denial.

3. Decimating the work force. The Germans used the prisoners as a source of slave labor. Why would they want to destroy a slave work force of 6 million?

Because they hated the jews and wanted to destroy them. They made them into slave labourers so that they could slowly kill them through it.

That being said I should probably state my views for the record.
Yes, the Holocaust happened.
No, I dont believe the numbers are accurate.

Based on what? What numbers are you saying it was? 1 million? 200,000? 4 million? Who is purposely 'pushing' six million as baseless propaganda, and for what effect? Is it the 'evil joos'?

Yes, the holocaust was horrible.
No, I dont believe the Jewish holocaust is any worse then the Native American Holocaust, or the Soviet holocaust, or any number of other mass slaughters thoughout history.

The destruction of the native americans was not an intentional systematic plan of extermination. Most native americans died from disease that was inevitably picked up from contact with europeans unitentionally, despite the fact that they DID purposely try to infect some tribes at some times.
Stalin killed more than 6 million people, but he wasn't intentionally trying to exterminate a people. The Turks tried to ethnically cleanse the armenians, but they werent' anywhere as nearly successful.

That is why the holocaust was unique. It was a single event, it was intentional, it killed millions, and the purpose was to exterminate a people.

It is different, in those respects, from every other episode of mass muder amoung the many such episodes in man's history.

Thanks to everyone for replying to my thread.

To respond firstly to 11bravo.

I apologise for the misnomer, I will refer to it from now on as Holocaust Revisionism, which is the correct term.

However I think you misunderstood my question. I was asking for your sources. If as you state there is a discrepancy with the numbers could you provide me with references so that I too can research the 'error'. The source of your statistical data for one would be handy.

I have never blindly accepted any version of the subject that was taught to me. I was never formally taught anything about the Holocaust. I actually went out and did extensive research myself, not only about the holocaust but about the entire period of history.

I also researched the revisionist movement, including works by Dr David Irving (who up until his death was the leading protagonist of the revisionist movement in Europe). I have met and interviewed Lady Jane Birdwell, who was convicted of disseminating Racist literature which contained references to holocaust revisionism. I have investigated the information they supply and have to date not found any evidence of hard facts, just racism and a desire for a resurrection of national socialism.

So again 11Bravo. could you provide me with the sources of your information. Wow me with your knowledge not your conjecture.

Seagull

I think that you are right there is an agenda going on. I am attempting to explore that on a variety of levels, I recently found an article that I had never seen before and to say it rocked my world is an understatement, a number of things fell into place for me.

I was really shocked to find people on this site supporting revisionism. Don't get me wrong I fully support the questioning of historical record but I noticed that those involved in the discussions had little or no knowledge of the entire period of history - political, social and economic dimensions. This surprised me. Why? because to understand what is going on in Europe and USA today an understanding of this period is, in my opinion essential.

This is why I have set this question to members. I don't want to hear that the numbers don't match etc, I want the sources of that information. And, I want to hear from members who have a basic knowledge of this history and garner their opinions as to why some members seem to believe the revisionists and what they think is at work.

Crakeur and Nygdan

Thanks to both of you for responding. I realise that you have been through these debates before and I am sorry to raise the subject again and force you both to reapeat yourself.

Crakeur - Your right how can people ignore the documented facts, they come from all sources - every nation in Europe has published their own reports and data, the Nazis destroyed much but still left an astounding amount of data. The photographic evidence alone is unequivocable - most SS and Military Units were not only issed with cameras (still and moving)but the new technology of colour film and encouraged to photograph everything and anything.

If the motto is deny ignorance why these members simply expounding it?

Nygdan - right again. The Holocaust is somewhat unique. The only other instance in recent history is the situation that occured against the musilms in former Yugoslavia and the continued victimisation of Muslim on a now international level.

Going further back - the Jews have been victimised and 'purged' since the latinisation of Europe. Thousands were killed as heretics.

I worry about the motivations going on here and who is behind the current revisionist movement.

Thanks

Thanks for the link to that thread - I hadn't seen that one and it gives me a point to start examining the movement.

I wasn't wishing to drag you into a debate on numbers, i was asking for your sources. If the Iranian movement is it, that's great by me. All i was pointing out was that I had read a variety of views regarding revisionism but not one had been able to supply any hard evidence or primary sources that could not with the minimal amount of research be discredited. This led me to wonder who the revisionist propaganda is aimed at and to get an idea of how hard it is being pushed.

Many thanks again for the Iranian thread link.

YOur title is hate-bait, nothing more.
Your thread is intended to create discourse.
How about this....
DO only the ignorant and gullible make holocaust threads when there is a plethora of them here at ATS alone?
Do only the ignorant and gullible believe the Native American Holocaust didnt happen?

Its garbage of the first degree.
Now you appear to be shifting gears...asking different questions...

This led me to wonder who the revisionist propaganda is aimed at

Well, I think you already answered that didnt ya? The 'revisionist propaganda' is aimed at the 'ignorant and gullible' isnt it?

I suppose you support the impisonment of Earnst Zundl as well.

golddragnet, you'd be better served using the original site for your link as the one you provide has articles with such wonderful titles as:
Jewish Lies & Frauds
Revisionists - 6,000,000 Jews DID NOT Die
Holocaustism - 6,000,000 Jews DID Die
Holocaust Numbers, Facts, Frauds Archive
Legend of Dr. Josef Mengele


Does it matter if 1 million or 6 million were systematically destroyed by the nazis? a plan to rid the planet of a group of people, no matter how many are actually killed, is still an evil plan.

If I were to go out and round up all the nazi lovin', white sheet wearing bigots in the US and then put them to work until they dropped dead, would it matter if the numbers were 1 or a 1 million? it would still be wrong, even if they are a misguided, uneducated, ignorant group.

Originally posted by 11Bravo
I suppose you support the impisonment of Earnst Zundl as well.

It's Ernst Zundel (with a pair of dots over the u).

Does he, or any other holocaust denier/revisionist, deserve to be imprisoned? Not in my eyes. While I understand the european gov'ts thoughts behind the law, it removes freedom of speech which is essential to society. If that means every hate mongering moron can have a say, so be it. The intelligent can simply not listen.

If the revisionist/deniers break laws by drawing swastikas or vandalizing synagogues, lock em up but for saying what's in their little minds? let em speak.

Originally posted by seagull
It's not so much ignorance driven, as it is agenda driven. These men and women have an agenda of hatred or politics. As we all know, blaming the Jew usually works...and denying some or all of the Holocaust is part and partial to their agenda of blaming the Jew for all the ills of the world.

I think you hit the nail on the head here seagull. It seems that "revisionist" tend to ignore all the evidence that has been gathered since the holocaust happened, eye witness reports, German reports, German soldier testimony. Instead they choose to go along with Nazi propoganda because it fits their preconcieved ideas that Jews are behind everything, controlling the world yadda yadda yadda...

Yep, its no big surprize that revisionists blame the Jews for the holocaust or try to dawn play the numbers. Throughout history it has been the same thing over and over, kill the evil Jews and then blame them for making you kill them.

How many Nazi speeches, pamphlets, letters, and movies talked about "racial purity" and how the Jews were the "scourge of Germany". Do you really think that was all talk? Do not be so foolish to think that Hitler and his go to guys lacked the resolve to go all the way with it. They could have removed the Jewish population by deporting them all but they didnt do that. Instead, they did exactly what they said they would do, they eliminated what they saw as the "jewish threat" by isolating, starving, and yes, gassing them to death. it happened, period, I know people who were there, and their stories would make your skin crawl.

Many non jews were included in the holocaust. Do the Romany people take as much advantage of the holocaust as the Jews do?

I do not deny that there was a systematic program to rid Europe of jews by the Nazis, but to still use the holocaust as the means to influence and determine policy around the world is wrong.

In some European countries, it is illegal to publically deny the holocaust. If we live in a free society, every view must be tolerated.

I question the numbers, not that this event took place. Does this mean I am ignorant and gullible because I refuse to accept the numbers?

Golddragnet - Thank you for the excellent link.

This is exactly what I was looking for.

Indeed the research carried out appears thorough, I was aware of the reduction in the Auchswitz numbers, that study was quite a time ago and the 1.5mil interred, 1.3 exterminated is quoted in the majority of histories that I have read and is widely accepted to be accurate.

I wasn't aware of the Madjanek numbers which is quite a significant drop. As it is currently being studied to ensure that the researcher has examined the sources correctly I'll watch that one with interest.

If the study is indeed genuine and without agenda it goes towards us gaining a more historically accurate picture of the numbers involved. Empirical research is nothing to be feared and can only clarify the debate.

The numbers post-war were obviously a guess-timate but I would expect to see some figures reduced and some go up as well. I would have thought there would have been an inclination towards the knee jerk reaction of over-estimating rather than under-estimating post-war, especially given the Allies knowledge that the death camps existed and there inability/unwillingness to actively intervene - collective guilt and all that.

Thanks again.

Originally posted by Crakeur
golddragnet, you'd be better served using the original site for your link as the one you provide has articles with such wonderful titles as:
Jewish Lies & Frauds
Revisionists - 6,000,000 Jews DID NOT Die
Holocaustism - 6,000,000 Jews DID Die
Holocaust Numbers, Facts, Frauds Archive
Legend of Dr. Josef Mengele


Does it matter if 1 million or 6 million were systematically destroyed by the nazis? a plan to rid the planet of a group of people, no matter how many are actually killed, is still an evil plan.

Yes, but a plan to exploit the 1 million that were killed by adjusting the story and making use of it to garner public support is also evil - in my opinion. If it got from 1 million to 6 million, it did so with help - I doubt very much it was the result of a typo.

And my position on this exactly echoes bravo's:

That being said I should probably state my views for the record.
Yes, the Holocaust happened.
No, I dont believe the numbers are accurate.
Yes, the holocaust was horrible.
No, I dont believe the Jewish holocaust is any worse then the Native American Holocaust, or the Soviet holocaust, or any number of other mass slaughters thoughout history.

It's very easy to paint all holocaust revisionists with the anti-semitic brush, and a lot more difficult to entertain the possibility that this horribly tragedy was made worse because it has been exploited and manipulated for political gain.