Do only the Ignorant and Gullible believe Holocaust Denial Propaganda?

why yes , yes indeed .

Dear me Nygdan, where to begin? Ironically, the ending seems the most logical place.

So bascially you are accusing 'the evil jews' of lying about the holocaust and taking advtange of their own people in order to get more 'public sympathy' than they would have gotten if only 1 million of them were killed?
Thats complete nonsense.

Firstly, you're putting words in my mouth. Please stop it. I never said anything about 'the evil jews', out of curiosity though - do you mean that phrase as 'those among the jewish race who are evil', or 'those jews - who are all evil'? If the former it might have some accuracy, but somehow I think it's more likely the latter - not only inaccurate of my views, but counter-productive, alarmist and propagandist. Until someone here talks about how the jews are evil, please refrain from claiming that any of us are talking about 'the evil jews'.

Now, on to the point at hand. Your inference here is that sympathy would be the same regardless of whether the figure was 1 or 6 million. And yet, at the beginning of your post you perform a wonderful song and dance about how the holocaust was a unique event because of the numbers. If sympathy is deserved regardless of how many were killed, then what does it matter if there were more Jews killed in the Holocaust than there were in the similar Eastern European holocausts?

Its really semantics anyway.

If it's only semantics that separates the two, then why are you still beating the 'The American Indians didn't have it as bad as the Jews' drum?

and he specifically states that there could be many more deaths that haven't been recorded by the germans.

I haven't gone through all of the thread, but weren't you one of the people talking about the immaculate record-keeping abilities of the Germans? Wasn't that part of the biggest reason why the Holocaust was undeniable?

It wasn't 1 million, it was around 6 million.

Unlike some, I'm not making claims that I know what the figure was. If you'll see in my original post: the quoted section I was responding to. I drew the 1 million number from that post. But congrats on the straw-man take-down.

Denying that millions were killed is denying the atrocity.

By this same logic, could your minimisation of the suffering of the American Indians not be considered denying that atrocity? And at what point does it become denial. For example, if I claim that 5.5 million Jews were killed instead of 6, is this denial of the atrocity? What about 4 million? Where's the cutoff point where one begins to deny the atrocity?

And back to your last 'point'

So bascially you are accusing 'the evil jews' of lying about the holocaust and taking advtange of their own people in order to get more 'public sympathy' than they would have gotten if only 1 million of them were killed?
Thats complete nonsense.

Do you think I would consider the way the deaths of the people who did die to be exploitation if I considered 'the jews' to be 'evil'? Nevermind that, would I really share a house with one for 7 years? My flatmate, and best-mate of 7 years now, is Jewish. We get into some heated debates about Israel and other issues, but I love him dearly and don't think him 'evil'.

I think there are some awful people in the American administration, even perhaps evil. Does this automatically extend to mean that I think all Americans are evil? It's a question asked time and time again, but why does questioning or disagreeing with the actions of some people within the Jewish community instantly get translated into 'hating all Jews'?

Frankly, I think even if the 6 million figure is completely accurate, the event has still been abused and exploited by many. There's 'lest we forget', then there's trivialising the event.

Originally posted by helium3
i cannot watch a TV show without a mention of the "H" word. If its not Will and Grace trying to find "nice jewish boys" its The OC with there relentless schedules of bar mitzvahs.

What does any of that have to do with the holocaust? What does it matter if a character on some show has a bar mitzah?

Who the hell watches the OC anyway?

Its just a simple fact of life the Holocaust is heavily used for public sympathy.

It clearly isn't being 'used', people are aware of it, and they recognize that it was disgusting. Thats hardly a bad thing. I've never seen the israelis bomb the crap out of a palestinian town and say 'but the nazis tried to kill us'. I've never seen a jew convicted of murder and then released 'because of the holocaust'.

Originally posted by mazzroth
6000 Jews Killed a day is a figure quoted by historians to equal the 6 million by the wars end

What historians are using such poor logic to arrive at a death estimate? Specifically, who, and where are they claiming it?

Come on, after a week there would be no place left to put the corpses let alone a month.

We have photos of large outdoor cremation pyres, and that'd be in addition to burials and cremation ovens. If you are going to claim that the germans couldn't do it, you need to be able to show reasoning for why they couldn't, show that the gas chambers can't work that effectively, or the mass shootings outside the 6 death camps didn't happen, etc.

It wasn't all done at 6 camps and all with gas chambers.

Thestev
. I never said anything about 'the evil jews'

Oh sure, you never said anything, your just implying that the jews are evil peopel who are lying about the holocaust in order to defraud all of humanity for their own personal and economic gain.

If sympathy is deserved regardless of how many were killed, then what does it matter if there were more Jews killed in the Holocaust than there were in the similar Eastern European holocausts?

It doesn't. What isn't clear about that? The holocaust WAS a unique event in history. Even if it wasn't, it'd still be horrible. That doesn't change that it WAS a unique event.

If it's only semantics that separates the two, then why are you still beating the 'The American Indians didn't have it as bad as the Jews' drum?

I'm not even the one that brought it up.

but weren't you one of the people talking about the immaculate record-keeping abilities of the Germans? Wasn't that part of the biggest reason why the Holocaust was undeniable?

The germans weren't keeping lists of every jew they murdered, they KNEW it was wrong. I didn't claim that the germans are like some sterotype, recording everything they come across. I said that there was a large body of evidence composed of nazi documents that supports that the holocaust occured, not that the germans were fanatical record keepers.

I drew the 1 million number from that post. But congrats on the straw-man take-down.

Since you're admiting that you 'drew that number' as an estimate, refuting it is hardly 'attacking a straw man'.

By this same logic, could your minimisation of the suffering of the American Indians not be considered denying that atrocity?

No, it can't, because I never minimized what happened to the american indians, I said it was different from what happened to the jews. It pretty clearly was a different event.

For example, if I claim that 5.5 million Jews were killed instead of 6, is this denial of the atrocity? What about 4 million? Where's the cutoff point where one begins to deny the atrocity?

I would say that the core of the crime of holocaust denial is the claim that its 'the evil jews' who faked the evidence to defraud the whole world. As far as disagreements on the death count, its all really a matter of why a person is giving the number. If they say its only 1 million jews, but have no reason or evidence for it, it begs the question, why is this person citing that number for no reason?
If its 4 million, but the person has good evidence for that being the acceptable number, then who cares?

The fact of the matter is that the death count is at around 6 million. Thats what the historical studies bear out.

Nevermind that, would I really share a house with one for 7 years?

I really don't care if you 'have jewish friends'. Go tell your jewish freinds that you think the jews are lying about the holocaust and commiting the greatest act of fraud in history in order to advance themselves. If they're still your friends then thats their fault.

Frankly, I think even if the 6 million figure is completely accurate, the event has still been abused and exploited by many. There's 'lest we forget', then there's trivialising the event.

And after all that you fail to cite a single peice of evidence showing that there weren't 6 million deaths, and fail to cite any instances of 'the jews' taking advantage of the holocaust.

nydgen likes adding "evil" to jews when describing how others feel about them. I think he thinks their evil because he is the only one on this board that calls them evil. he ignores direct questions and spins them back saying you called jews evil and that everyone is lying.

i would like to buy you a coffee Nydgen, you pick the airport, i just gotta see the eyes of a spinster before i die. ive never met anyone in real life that would play an arguement the way you do. You can talk all day without saying a thing couldn't you?

no one that is interested in holocaust revision is interested in your half baked claims of proof. If you are going to claim proof, then i should see you post a direct link to this proof. I was taught about the holocaust in school, and it was pretty vague and full of words like evil, and madman, but i've never seen any proof that would hold up in court today.

My God man. Are you reading the same posts I'm writing?

Oh sure, you never said anything, your just implying that the jews are evil peopel who are lying about the holocaust in order to defraud all of humanity for their own personal and economic gain.

Would you kindly point out where I have inferred that 'the jews' (read 'all jews') are responsible for this exploitation? Again I raise this comparison which you have completely ignored:

I think there are some awful people in the American administration, even perhaps evil. Does this automatically extend to mean that I think all Americans are evil? It's a question asked time and time again, but why does questioning or disagreeing with the actions of some people within the Jewish community instantly get translated into 'hating all Jews'?

It doesn't. What isn't clear about that? The holocaust WAS a unique event in history. Even if it wasn't, it'd still be horrible. That doesn't change that it WAS a unique event.

So what if it was a unique event? I have news for you. Every event in history is unique. That's where the saying 'history never repeats' comes from.

Since you're admiting that you 'drew that number' as an estimate, refuting it is hardly 'attacking a straw man'.

Again, are you even reading my posts? I never said I drew that number as an estimate, I said that I was referring to the poster above me who had made a comment 'what does it matter if it was 1 million or 6 million'. I was addressing that question directly, and that's why I said 1 million.

I would say that the core of the crime of holocaust denial is the claim that its 'the evil jews' who faked the evidence to defraud the whole world.

OK. Then why do you also say this?

Denying that millions were killed is denying the atrocity.

Which is it?

If they say its only 1 million jews, but have no reason or evidence for it, it begs the question, why is this person citing that number for no reason?
If its 4 million, but the person has good evidence for that being the acceptable number, then who cares?

I don't think you're saying that you don't care if someone has good evidence for a 4 million rather than 6 million figure, but it certainly reads that way.

The fact of the matter is that the death count is at around 6 million. Thats what the historical studies bear out.

And heaven knows history is never written/manipulated by the victor.

Go tell your jewish freinds that you think the jews are lying about the holocaust and commiting the greatest act of fraud in history in order to advance themselves.

I would tell my mates that, except that I don't think it. Again, you've extended my belief that some people within the Jewish community have exploited the Holocaust to mean that 'all Jews are evil and are lying about the Holocaust'. Honestly man, how can you not see the difference. Here it is again, in the most basic language I can manage. 'Some Jews'. 'All Jews'. 'Some'. 'All'. Got it? If not, see my point about Americans above.

And would it matter what evidence I cited? None of it is 'good' enough to convince you. What of the Auschwitz number revision? Do you honestly believe that the Germans were comfortable enough in their actions to record the first few hundred thousand people they killed, but after that they figured they'd better fudge the records? I mean, they wouldn't want people thinking they were monsters, right?

[edit on 1-3-2007 by TheStev]

I have to say that the people who are arguing hardest for the 6 million killed as a truthful figure are blinded badly by what they want to believe and are probably Jewish themself.

If I come out and said 100 billion Australian Aborigines were killed by the White races and anyone who disagree's with this figure will be jailed indefinitely !!!! you would laugh at me, but a similarly proportioned claim does this and ask's to be taken seriously.

I dont see the Poles still crying over their lost bretheren, nor the Russians for that matter and each of those lost alot more that the Jewish race did during WW2. I must also point out that the Russians actually fought the Germans and to a certain extent the Polish did too. How many brave stories of Jewish heroics taking on the German Armies have you heard ???

Actually the comment I made above is probably the crux of this whole garbage, because the Jews did not fight or offer any resistance in WW2 of any note and to get the spoils of war they had to embelish somewhat to get a........Country out of it .

What the hell man the actual denial of one of the most catastrophic events is highly laughable in a creepy way seriously this is new form of ignorance and Political Correctness. Theres only one statement that comes to mind, Jesus Shootin Heroin I can't believe that theres even a debate on wether a welll documented event happend. # son If were going deny might as well go all out.

Hey why don't we say the holocaust was a water park/summer camp and that the burning of the jews was a accident becuase the sauna installed at all the super happy fun camps were malfunctoning killing 3million of them jews and turning 3million black. Witch we sent in a nazi time warp using the swastika (witch is like a steering wheel when spun but uses the same time travel theory as the terminator) So we sent the surviving to pick americas cotton and play 2 on 2 basketball with paul bunyon and lincoln but the blacks won and used the profits to buy the rights of peanut butter and crack but not Kool- Aid.

I am sorry for some obvious racial sterotypes but I strongly despise anyone who denies such a catastrophic event there are well documented evidence. By the way if any gives me that "history channel produced it with steven speilberg for zionistic propaganda is beyond stupidity" seriously give some basis on the denial. so deniers please send me a U2U on why it never happend.

I go with this Image.

Actually if 6 million died in camps there must of been 10's of millions that wern't so how come we dont hear stories of the Heroic Jewish Warriors fighting the Germans ? How come they never become "insurgence"? like we are seeing in Iraq now ?

Im not Anti-Jewish in any way shape or form but this story doesn't add up and if my countrymen were being slaughtered wholesale we would stand up and fight to the death, not critisize and jail anyone who disagrees. Sounds like the "Thought Police" in action here to cover up the real crime which was Non-Opposition to the Nazi's IMHO.

And for the record, I think the Jewish people (perhaps it's overly PC, but I don't agree with using the term 'The Jews', it seems disrespectful, like saying 'The blacks') have been exploited and manipulated as much as anyone by this situation.

Mazzroth - see the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising.

I just want to thank those two members, 11bravo and Golddragnet who provided me with the original source material I requested so that I can continue my studies into the subject.

This is understandably a very emotional subject and while time is wasted on meaningless debate about numbers the real issues go unanswered.

There is a definate problem with education and with individuals willingness to explore history for themselves. I cannot get over how little you all actually know about this period of history, on both sides of the fence. I realise that everyone is entitled to an opinion - but you really shouldn't comment if you know nothing and are just basing your findings on one documentary. PLEASE, No wonder the world is a S**t Hole when people beleive the first thing that they read or watch.

So from reading the responses to the thread - I can only conclude that not only is it a question of Ignorance and Gullibility but a complete willingness to believe anti-semitic propaganda.

The main problem seems to be immaturity and naivety.

If you doubt the numbers get off your bottoms and do some thorough research into how the numbers were compiled etc. I can respect that. To just see a documentary and make a conclusion from that - what can I say?

I for one will not be wasting any more time discussing the 'numbers' on any of these threads until one of you actually does some real research.

You're entitled to your opinions and I'm entitled to choose no to listen to the babblings of children.

Again many thanks for your contributions and for aiding me in reaching these conclusions.

Emotional argument you say? No wonder when you call people with different opinions gullible, immature, ignorant, naive and children? How can we possibly expect the research you've done to be fair and impartial when you use such clearly biased language? Or do you not think researcher bias is an issue?

Oh and 'reaching these conclusions' is preposterous. The language of the post subject makes it quite clear you had already made up your mind long before creating this post.

[edit on 2-3-2007 by TheStev]

Babbling of children? Immature? I almost lost count of the cute little cutdowns you used there, sir. Having been properly chastized (sp?), I am now sure that those of us who disagree with you will now rapidly come 'round to your enlightened views on denial, or revisionism if you prefer.

I don't remember who asked it...but the question was raised earlier as to when does legitamate questioning of the numbers killed turn into denial, or revisionism, if you prefer. My answer would be when the political agenda of the questioner can begin to be called into question.

A question to all you revisionists, or deniers as I prefer, out there. Assuming, for a moment, that 6 million were not murdered during the Holocaust, just where in the hell did they get to? If you believe the claptrap that the early postwar deniers spewed, they all immigrated to the United States, and were happily living in New York, or some similar place.

I have no agenda. I seek truth, odd how when some folks say the numbers don't matter they are talking in circles, because if numbers don't matter why are you upset if the numbers go down? I want to know WHO supplied the original numbers> Those may be the folks with an agenda to push, don't you think?
I was not a Nazi, I never owned any slaves, I didn't fight Santa Ana in Texas, so why and I being clubbed by "these" agendas?

Just cause my skin is lighter doesn't mean I have power over you, but "everyone knows" it was the evil WASP's that caused all bad things right?

the holocaust was unique in History until Palestine take over started, but thats different, they are fighting back

[edit on 2-3-2007 by thedigirati]

Golddragnet - Thank you for your last post - you are a man that I can talk to.

I personally have no doubt whatsoever that the Nazis committed the atrocities reported, I see no need to question numbers, to me it is completely irrelevent. Pedantic. Especially when those spouting it have no grasp of the complete history of the period - pre and post WW2.

All this talk of numbers, whether the gas chambers were a myth etc is to create an atmosphere of conflict and to prevent the real questions being asked. You seem to have seen through that and taken the step to look further than the automatic emotional responses.

You have supplied me with some vital resources and i am very grateful for that and I have the upmost respect for your views and hope that I can call on you again should I have any questions that i think you may be able to help me with.

I don't wish to insult anyone, but i was interested to find if there were people on ATS with similar views to myself on this issue. Who knew the history and were able to make considered opinions and judgements based up on that information. Thank you Goldragnet, you have my respect and my admiration.

I will look through in detail the links that you have supplied and add it to my own research where applicable. The truth is out there it is just a systematic process of seperating the wheat from the chaff.

Many thanks - if i had a 'way above' option you'd get it, you've restored my faith.

Out of curiosity, what are the 'real questions'?

There is never anything wrong with the questioning of facts...however when it's being used as a cover for a not so subtle attack upon the "evil" Jews, or Zionists, or whatever the catchphrase of the day is, that's when I have an issue with it.

6 million, four million, whatever number you or others finally come up with truelly doesn't matter. It's the thinking and agenda behind the revision of the numbers that matter...all too often the people trumpeting the loudest about mistakes in the numbers are the deniers of the Holocaust. Earnst Zundel prominent amongst them. You can pretty it up all you want, but all too often, there is an ulterior motive of anti-Jewish sentiment behind it.

Oh, the most recent post by gallopinghordes was me. We're sharing a computer at the moment, and I accidently somehow or other used her account. So any anger should be directed at me and not her. She'd probably agree with me, but that's neither here nor there.

I apologise unreservedly for referring to posters as babbling children. I apologise for calling those who spout unsubstantiated theories naïve, immature, ignorant and gullible.

I was asking for the sources of your information, that was my agenda and that alone. That said it was wrong of me to be dismissive and for that I am sorry.

I do agree that open questioning and debate of issues are essential. Especially if we are to ensure that we are not manipulated by the very powers that benefited from the events of the holocaust.

I do not agree with the revisionists arguments and am yet to find one that stands up to any close scrutiny.

Many groups and individual were murdered in the name of National Socialism, the majority were of Jewish descent. This is an unequivocal fact. Not my opinion, but the result of extensive reading and research on the subject. Both by myself but others whom I trust and respect.

Do I think that there are disparities in numbers? Yes I believe there is evidence that numbers were over estimated in some cases, I would also expect to find some were under estimated. Do I think that this is significant? No I do not.

I am interested in the ‘Manufacture of Consent’.

We are currently involved in a period of history that I believe is utilizing this method to control and affect public opinion. The events of the first half of the twentieth century are where these operations began in earnest. I believe that the powers that directed the events of WW2 are the same powers that hold a greater control over all our lives than ever before in modern history.

This is why, although I do not agree with all of Golddragnets views and opinions, I genuinely thanked him for the information he provided. And while his sources are not unbiased, they do provide me with sufficient information to locate the primary sources for myself.

3 pages, not one flag, and still the Mods let this hate-bait thread continue.
I will bet you dollars to donuts, if I started a thread and titled it "DO only the ignorant and gullible believe in UFOs", then I called 'believers' immature and childish, the thread would be closed and I would probably be fined.
I cant believe they are letting this thread go on.

Kilgore, Im willing to believe the 6 million number, all I need is a little evidence. What do you have for me?
I wont accept a picture of a few hundred corpses as evidence of 6 million.
I wont accept a list of a few hundred thousand as evidence of 6 million.
I want real hard evidence.
Show me ovens capable of completely destroying a million bodies.
Then show me five more ovens with equal capacity.
By the way, why did the Germans waste their time with gassing Jews?
Why didnt they just herd them all into a pit and bury them alive?
Seems like they could have saved themselfs a load of work, not to mention fuel, by simply burying the victims alive.


Please give me some hard evidence so I can overcome my ignorance and gullibility.