Originally posted by uberarcanist
I'm only trying to explain what happened in WWII and not trying to justify it, because it can't be justified.

Amen to that. There are just too many "errors" and technical issues with the Holocaust for it to be taken at face value.

To answer the OP: I may be gullable, but am also a sucker for technical arguments. Studying Holocaust Revisionism has numbed me though, and I simply don´t see the point discussing it further on a public board.

Recent emprisonments: Ernst Zündel: 5 years and Germar Rudolf: 2.5 years. Next me? I don´t think so. Forget about the Holocaust.

Noone really wants to know anyway.

You know, I think if the Communists hadn't been so prone to infighting they would've won.

Crakeur, your wiki article hurts you more than it helps you. It's clear as day in there that both Lenin and Stalin condemned anti-Semitism. It's also clear as day that the Great Purges were not about anti-Semitism but rather about killing the enemies of Stalin.

If Stalin hated Jews so much, he could have done a much better job of reducing their numbers.

I've kind of avoided this thread as i got what I wanted out of it - which were reliable sources of revisionism. I agree with Truth4Hire it is a wasted exercise debating the details of the holocaust. Personally i feel that the holocaust was slightly hijacked by the Zionist contingent, although that in no way detracts from the atrocities suffered by european jewry. Many of the arguments put forward by the revisionist movement are unfounded, poorly researched or just outright lies. However when I am provided sources from jews themselves who question the holocaust, then I am willing to listen.

Between 10 and 11 million people died as a result of Nazi racial policy and for the achievement of Lebenstraum. Up to 6 million of those were jewish. To question those figures is futile and to the best part, for me at least uncheckable. I have neither the time or the inclination to spend months counting names, examining census records etc. Others have and to the most part, they are figures that I respect and whose other work I have read.

The Jews were scapegoats, the Nazis used them as a political tool and it worked beautifully. Hitler at no point decided that all jews must die, and if you have studied his speeches as I have, you would see this for yourself. Other influences dictated that the Jews must die on mass, influences that existed both inside and outside germany. Hitler wanted the jews out of germany and he cared not how this happened - end of story.

Do you think Hitler ordered the redirection of resources vital to the war effort, to the extremination of jews? No he did not. When Op Barbarossa failed those responsible for the extermination of jews freaked and knew that they had to cover their backs, they had to kill those in the camps asap. IG Farben, BMW, VW, Siemens all made money from slave labour...Do you think that its likely that they were in partnership with Hitler? Do you think that the camp commandants may have been receiving back handers? Do you think that Messers Bush, Harriman, Warburg and Rockefeller wanted these deals to be made public?

Understand the man that Hitler was. He was not a raving lunatic, he was a gifted orator, a man selected for his ability to relate to the common man. He was dictator of germany, yes, but who put him there, these things do not happen overnight. The greatest lie to come out of WW2 was that Hitler was a mad man who personally sought the annihilation of jewry. Many millions were made from the use of slave labour and yet Hitler received none of it. He was a simple man of minimalistic needs, he had no use for wealth. Think very carefully about this.

Now, who has the most to benefit from revisionism? Which individuals built their empires off the backs of dead men, women and children? Why have these people never paid reparations? Remember that these are the same people who provided the funds for the loans for the Marshal Plan.

I could go on but my point is this - if we are to deny ignorance, start asking the right questions, don't allow those with the most to hide dictate the agenda. Look at who funds the publishers who print this cr*p.

Good post Kilgore, I see that you have been able to distinguish much of the lies and the propaganda from the truth.

Thanks Golddragnet and thanks for the sources that you provided, they were invaluable as I had never examined revisionism from this angle.

I have read countless accounts of people who were caught up in the war and the holocaust but never really understood what happened post-war. I have been looking seriously at the money side of things for about 12 months and it is amazing how the same names keep cropping up and the number of pies in which these people have their thumbs stuck in. I am now studying middle-eastern history with vigour, trying to get to the bottom of the whys and the wherefores. It is fascinating.

Thank you for your help.

Kilgore

Nice post above mate, but there is one thing that appears to be omitted from your perspective on WW2 and the Deaths of lots of Jews. Worded carefully anyone who read the above would think that the Germans just persecuted the Jews at random ( thats a conspiracy in itself ).

It is a very complex subject as to why Hitler singled out the Jews for special treatment and the answer lies back in the last days of WW1. It was payback for the backstab from the American Jews and the media turned around from promoting Non-Interventionist ideals into the public pysche to one of making the Germans out to be worse than baby killers.

The media mogules did this and brought America into the war which ultimately swung the war into a stalemate when the German Army was clearly superior. Hitler fought in those trenches in WW1 and I have no doubt the average German ( highly educated ) would have known this and hence the vengeful outcome when the time come which happend to be the next world war.

Mazzroth

I appreciate your point that I was overly succinct in my assessment of the jews as a scapegoat. You are right there was nothing random about the selection of the Jews. However I am confused as to your reasoning with regard to the ‘American Jews’.

I do not know which media moguls you refer to and would welcome further information, such as particular publishers etc so I can look in to it further. The only instance of duplicity I know of is William Randolph Hearst who was initially anti-US involvement. He sent Pathe crews to film behind German lines prior to US participation. Obviously when the US became involved in the war he switched perspective to behind US lines – it would have been professional suicide not to have done so. But he retained a bias towards German forces (many of his associates were of german origin).

It is my understanding that the US joined WW1 in reaction to the Germans approaching Mexico as an ally and then when Germany attacked US merchant vessels, Wilson finally agreed to enter the war. There had been much debate in congress prior to this and Roosevelt for one was in favour of joining the war much earlier.

Woodrow Wilson’s fourteen points formed the basis for the German surrender in World War 1. The European allies had not agreed these points and Wilson was forced to compromise, with only four of his points being carried forward to the League of Nations. I expect that this could be construed as a betrayal by the US.

The French were the victims of war crimes and atrocities by the German Imperial forces and as such felt it was only just that they received reparations. The British for their part were unwilling to allow Germany freedom of the seas. In short it was Europe and the nature of the German surrender that invoked the resentment of the common soldier (of which Hitler was one). Europe castrated Germany, not America.

When the bill for reparations was presented by the European Allies and the Mark became valueless, civil uprisings were the result, not just from the Nazis but from a variety of factions. Hitler led the Munich Beer hall Putsch, was imprisoned and a popular hero was born. At this stage it should be noted that the GWP had Jewish members and support. Not only that but they had communist leanings, this was afterall party of the working classes.

The Nazis party joined the GWP with the Gestapo, which was recruited mainly from the middle-classes. Hitler came under the influence of Dieter Eckart and Alfred Rosenberg. Anti-semitism and anti-communism became a key feature of Nazi doctrine and propaganda, feeding on populist prejudice.

Basic Machavellian principles direct that if you cannot unite your nation in love then hate will serve just as well – if not better. Anti-semitism was a popular under-current within Germany and Europe as a whole. It was an obvious choice for unity by hatred and by marrying the fear of Bolshevism a modern dimension was added.

The Burning of the Reichstag and the Jewish/bolshevik ‘patsies’ manufactured the consent to propel Hitler to Chancellor and the rest is history.

Indeed, many Jews are adamantly opposed to the existence of the State of Israel and claim that to accept its existence is contrary to the principles of Judaism.

I think it is important that we do realise the difference between Jews and Israelis. For me Judiasm is a religion, not a race. It is also important to note that very few of the very rich jews were actually killed by the Nazis, they got out because they could afford to.

As to Israel, I agree wholeheartedly. In my opinion there is no nation as loathsome as the Israelis. They have for years now been openly murdering defenseless men, women and children. The Palestinians deserve the support and military back up of the west not the Israelis.

The Palestinians were perfectly willing to live side by side with the Jews when faced with the Balfour Declaration and there is some evidence to suggest that the Zionists (Rothschilds) used the events of the second WW to force the hand of the British government to by-pass their obligation to the Palestinian people.

I wish I had more time right now to continue, but I'll hopefully come back to this later today. I am pleased that this discussion has taken this direction and that we can perhaps discuss Israel in terms of nation rather than race. We as intelligent informed people should not continue to allow them hide behind that old chesnut.

Some of my family (well being from 1981 you could say ancestors) died in the holocaust because they were of gipsy origin. Anyone telling me the holocaust did not happen has to be happy if he doesn't get hit in the face tbh.

and anyone saying I wasn't there so I don't know for sure. I believe my grandmother when she tells me about those relatives and several jewish friends that she never saw again.

people saying the holocaust never happened are an athrocity themselves and hurt a lot a people with their claims. if you can even call them claims.



as if the video's (sick) of freshly gassed bodies being handled like they are garbage, video's of so skinny you can't imagine "workers". and the video's of the prisoners troops made after liberating the camps aren't enough. A horror movie doesn't do them justice.. It's just... unspeakable.

As for zionists etc.. that's all good and fine.. but the actual people who suffered were citizens. innocent women, men, elderly and even kids and babies.

[edit on 1-4-2007 by David2012]

David2012,
Is there anyone in this thread who believes no one was killed? I don’t think so. The debate is mostly about numbers killed, not if none at all were killed.

The video you refer to, (sick or not) does nothing in proving or discrediting the 6 million figure.

I’d like to extends a special thanks to KilgoreTrout whose comments throughout the thread have been very interesting. I see you have already gathered 9 applauses in the short time you were here. (must be some sot of record?) Too bad we can’t check the number of WATS, I’m sure you got quite a few.

Keep up the good work.


[edit on 1/4/07 by ConspiracyNut23]

Im not a denier of some things that happened but I am very skeptical about the numbers..
Wow, just think, if I lived in Germany or this server was in Germany, saying something like that could/would send me to prison.

Thanks CNUT - its nice to be appreciated.



Golddragnet

I have just been looking through the NKUK.org site - there is some very interesting stuff on there....In particular the speech made by Rabbi Y D Weiss at the Iranian Holocaust conference with regard to the ransoming of the Hungarian jews. I have been giving Israel much thought lately for many reasons and particularly their attitude that they can get away with murder.

I got to thinking about Eichmann. The crimes that he committed and his role in the holocaust is undisputed but Israel tried and hung him illegally and got away with it. Yes he should have been captured and tried, no doubt in my mind there, but it should not have happened the way it did. he should at the very least have been handed over to the Hague or similar. Instead he got the full kangeroo treatment.

So I'm reading the above mentioned article and find that it was Eichmann who was involved in the Hungarian negotiations - adding this information to the Rabbi Weissmandl questions I'm beginning to smell a few rats.

In 1937 Eichmann attempted to arrange mass deportation to Israel. Was sent to Palestine to investigate (but refused entry). The idea was rejected at that time because Germany was officially opposed to the formation of a Jewish state (which begs the question why send him????) and for economic reasons.

Then in 1943 we have the Hungarian negotiations. Where Eichmann was willing to ransom the Jews - the Zionist said only if they went to Palestine. I understand that Germany at this time had a sympathetic pact with Palestine to prevent a 'Jewish State', I think the shah or pasha was actually living in exile in Germany at that time. So Hitler said No. According to Weiss and Weissmandl the British were willing to disperse to their colonies, but the Zionist said no, Palestine or nothing. 400,000 Hungarian jews were subsequently deported and murdered.

Whatever his ideology, it appears Eichmann worked closely with the Zionist while in the Office for Jewish Emmigration. There is even suggestion that he was sympathetic to the Jews plight and studied the Torah.

Surely the Israeli government knew this and this further implies a failure of justice. Does this not constitute a conflict of interest - that the Israelis were possibly trying to prevent full details of these negotiations coming out - I don't know, I'm simply opining - but I'm sure you get my drift. I intend to look into it in greater detail, my interest being thoroughly piqued.

That Eichmann facilitated the deaths of many 100s of thousands of jews is without dispute, he was an excellent administrator who followed orders to the letter - and yet it is claimed that he ignored Himmler's orders to halt transportations 1945. This doesn't make sense, a man who had to the letter carried out his responsiblities, who had followed orders without question and accepted the reframing of his morals to those of his leaders, suddenly in 1945 decides all Jews must die. Again this piques my interest, it doesn't fit.

I intend to look into this but I would be interested in your thoughts Golddragnet - and from anyone else who may have insight on this.

I recommend to anyone reading this thread to have a look at the links Golddragnet supplies as they offer some interesting perspectives on Israel, Palestine and Iran, as well as to the holocaust debate.

Golddragnet - I think that you and I are on a very similar wavelength. You are proving a great help to me in raising my awareness of these juxtapositions within Nazis Germany and beyond. I think that you understand where I am going with all this too. All I have at the moment is a collection of information and a lot of questions.

I am attempting to draw things together, but I still have huge gaps. As you say the truth is stranger than fiction - I experience first disbelief, then self-questioning (am I reading too much into this, am I letting my own predjudice carry me along etc), but I am finding more and more the dots just keep joining themselves.

I look forward to your next post and in the meantime I'll try a little bible reading, see where that takes me.

Golddragnet

Just started to skim through Revelations - OMG!!!! Amazing, amazing, amazing - you really DO know where I'm going with this!! Thanks Golddragnet, you are a huge help.