What can we do to address race-relations and solve racism?

Originally posted by FlyersFan
No one said 'disgust'. Anger would be more in line. Anger at the prospect of someone taking money, MY money, that they haven't earned but that I have.

I want to read your links, but I'll have to do that later. For now, I'll just tackle your basic reasoning.

By 'your money,' you seem to be implying that you, FF, would write individual checks to me, Ceci, etc. If I'm mistaken, please correct me. I don't think it would work that way. I believe that the responsibility would fall on the government. Before you ask where that money will come from, remember that we manage to find billions of dollars a year to send to Israel.

On whether Larry King's jewish, apparently he is.
www.nndb.com...

riley, I don't care. What I care most is about this thread. And this thread is not about me. You just have to do some self-examination about your own racial attitudes as I have to myself.

I'll just say this: you need to stop with trying to tell others how to do things. Heal thyself.

And judging from your last comments, you need it very badly.

I've understood what you've said. I will try to change.

I just hope you try to change as well by being more open-minded and less condescending.

Nothing more needs to be said between us.

Now we need to get back on topic. Really.


[edit on 21-9-2006 by ceci2006]

Originally posted by HarlemHottie
I believe that the responsibility would fall on the government.

Which is my tax money. Mine. I'm paying it.

remember that we manage to find billions of dollars a year to send to Israel.

Oh yes, lets' talk about all our tax money going overseas instead of being spent here (ore even better - not taxed and taken from us at all) All those billions ...MY MONEY! ... flowing out to other countries while Americans (of all races and creeds) are living in difficult times .. while our infrastructure is in such dire straights. OH YES!!! I'm right there with ya'. STOP the flow of our money to foreign countries while our own citizens are scrambling to get ahead. absoltuely. No more money to anyone ...

Lets pretend that we managed to stop the flow of money going out of this country.
(what a happy happy thought) That still wouldn't mean that 'reparations' - as in a cash payout - were alright. I'd be all for spending the money on infrastructure, on free college tuition FOR EVERYONE, free medical care FOR EVERYONE, etc.... but not in a cash payout. That would not be fair.

I'd be even more in favor of not spending it at all .. not taxing it at all ... letting people keep as much of the money for themselves as they can earn. Some taxes are necessary and I understand that. But if we were to cut spending money on other countries then we wouldn't need to have the high taxes that we have now. people could keep what they earn.

On whether Larry King's jewish, apparently he is.
www.nndb.com...

I'm in complete shock. I had been told and fully believed that he was Athiest. I read that he was in the book 'whos who in hell' ... WOW. That's interesting. Thanks.

This is the book that I was talking about -
www.amazon.com...

edited to add book

[edit on 9/21/2006 by FlyersFan]

Just a little scholarly interjection I posted on another page that I think is relevant here.

The fact that there were cases of white slavery is a fascinating historical fact and further points out the barbarity and depravity of the entire slave trade. Just as we are told that we should never forget about the Holocaust, we should not forget this dark period in American history. The sad fact, however, is that we do not learn the lessons of these terrible events. Rather than try to stop the continuing acts of genocide and slavery (slavery continues in Mali and the Sudan) that exist right now in Africa and other parts of the world, Americans would rather fight the battles of 50 or 150 years ago. They are focused on extracting apologies and recompense from the descendants of those responsible for horrific past deeds and they do nothing about alleviating the suffering of their fellow human beings today.

-- Martin Kannengieser

archive.salon.com...

Semper

Hey semper - 27 million people are slaves at this moment. (estimated)

Modern slavery is very much alive and well. In Africa blacks trade and sell other blacks every day. Asia ... sex slavery is rampant. Asian child slaves .... In europe white women sex slavery ....

Historically slavery in America was practiced by only a relative few and was really a small and short lived blip on the worlds historical 'slavery radar'. (It's still a painful part of history) Slavery has been around since the beginning of human history. It's infected most countries on the planet through history. It's enslaved people of EVERY race and it is still being practiced today.

salt.claretianpubs.org...
www.globalaware.org...

The plight of Asian slaves is sad and is certainly a mess. Slavery mixed with mafia style crime and government corruption.


edited for spelling



[edit on 9/21/2006 by FlyersFan]

Originally posted by ceci2006
No, riley. You are lying. You also need to stop with trying to tell others how to do things and heal thyself.

How am I lieing? I can actually prove that you have been racist, but, despite my challenge, you cannot. Heal thyself? YOU started this thread in the interest [suppodley] of 'healing' race relations. You cannot heal if you are actively trying to hurt people.

And yes, I've understood what you've said. I will try to change.

I'm glad.. and I did notice that you were trying but then someone pissed you off and you slipped back into the "white always.. etc." rhetoric. I just wished these changes you speak of were genuine.. when you realise for youself that white aren't inherently racist you will [and it will be evident in your posts] ..but right now you are just causing further division.

I just hope you try to change as well by being more open-minded and less condescending.

More open minded to anti-white racism? Never going to happen. Not sure what you mean.. as for condescending.. not sure how I can try and curb your racism without sounding condescending and pointing it out.. whats more you seem to pull up on it when I do so obviously you take what I say on board.

Nothing more needs to be said between us.

You're dumping me?
Seriously though.. when you offend me and others there is more to be said between us and I will continue to do so.

Now we need to get back on topic. Really.

We ARE on topic though. You want to solve racism.. learn from and analise your own.. this anger stems from something and IMO you have your own stories to tell and should. Couldn't you relay these experiences without branding all whites? Racists come in all colours.. you can still discuss historical and modern racism without demonising entre races.

edited to fix code.

[edit on 21-9-2006 by riley]

Originally posted by semperfortis
Just a little scholarly interjection I posted on another page that I think is relevant here.

Is that a polite way of telling black Americans to get over it?

The US can play world policeman when we deal with our own skeletons.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
Which is my tax money. Mine. I'm paying it.

So now your issue with reparations is about taxes? If you pay your taxes normally, I think you could find it in your heart to continue to do so for one measly year in order to right a historic wrong.

[Reading back on this, I can see where it might look 'attitudinal,' but I didn't mean it that way. I meant exactly what I said, no stress on 'measly']

...flowing out to other countries while Americans (of all races and creeds) are living in difficult times ...I'm right there with ya'.

Good to see we agree on the general American stuff.

Lets pretend that we managed to stop the flow...That still wouldn't mean that 'reparations' - as in a cash payout - were alright. I'd be all for spending the money on infrastructure, on free college tuition FOR EVERYONE, free medical care FOR EVERYONE, etc.... but not in a cash payout. That would not be fair.

I agree with you, but not because it isn't fair. If anything, reparations for slavery is long overdue. I agree with you because I think two years of foreign aid could do all the things you mentioned, and more, and that would help blacks too.

Also, just so you know, black people haven't decided among ourselves what form reparations would come in. The Jewish survivors of the Holocaust didn't receive direct payments. Their money was re-directed to them, after paying lawyers, infrastructure, and other bs costs. At the end, many of the survivors died poor, or were unable to pay for medicine. (see "The Holocaust Industry," by Norman- something) That obviously didn't work. The black community has its own set of leeches, so it wouldn't work for us either. To be honest, I really haven't kept up witht he reparations debate, so I don't know if they've worked out any new ideas.

Originally posted by HarlemHottie
The US can play world policeman when we deal with our own skeletons.

Can't both be done at once? Apartied ended, in part, because of a grass roots type movement in the USA. It is possible to look at the situation of political slaves in China and for us to adjust our purchases not to include those items made by political slaves in China (like Happy Meal toys for example. I've been told they are made by political prisoners in China).

I fully agree with you.. spend our money here at home where it's needed. But we can also adjust certain lifestyle choices we have to help others in other parts of the world.

Semper had a good point. Slavery is everywhere NOW. It crosses all ethnic lines. We need to acknowledge that truth.



[edit on 9/21/2006 by FlyersFan]

Originally posted by HarlemHottie
So now your issue with reparations is about taxes? If you pay your taxes normally, I think you could find it in your heart to continue to do so for one measly year in order to right a historic wrong.

You asked for non-PC answers .. so I'm plain talking here ... just as you asked for. Okay?

No. My issue with reparations is not 'now' about taxes. We were talking about who would PAY reparations. You said the government. That means our taxes. I pay taxes. Therefore .... it's still my money.

Your premise is that since it could be done ... just do it? Just hand money over just because it could be done? That dispite that it would be wrong and impossible to do so? (see attached articles for graphs and charts)

There is no 'historic wrong' to be righted. Slavery ended 150 years ago. No one alive had anything to do with it. Nor did their parents. Nor their grandparents.

If you want to use 'hsitoric wrong' as a reason to get money then look at the examples I gave ... of my Native American Indian heritage (my maternal grandmother - 100% native American indian) ... my Irish ancestors and what happened to them ... etc. etc. Those were wrongs but I'm not holding anyone who is alive today responsible for them. They had nothing to do with them and they shouldn't have to pay anything for them. I took self resonsibility and brought myself up out of the situations I inherited from my ancestory.

There is no need to pay for something that doesn't need to be paid for. Shoveling tax money (still my money) to black people for a year just because it COULD be done still wouldn't make giving it to them right. It would be 'shut them up' money .. and it would be a shakedown of people who have done nothing wrong.

Again. It's my money. I earned it. I keep it.

There is no way to decide who would pay and who would receive it anyways ... no fair way .. no right way .... impossible. Why should I pay anything? I had ancestors die fighting slavery. Why should my husband pay anything? His family wasn't even here back then. No one should pay anything.

Originally posted by HarlemHottie
I want to read your links, but I'll have to do that later.

How about you read them now? Here they are again .. so you won't forget -

www.adversity.net...
www.frontpagemag.com...
www.sierratimes.com...


I THINK WE AGREE at least that the money we are sending overseas should stop being sent over there and should be spent here at home. No more foriegn country bailouts. No more debt amnesty. No cash payments of 'foreign aid' to countries and groups that just turn around and stab us anyways. Cut that 6 billion $$$ that Bush said we are giving Africa for AIDS research. 6 billion would go a long way in Baltimore (have you seen Baltimore lately??? It needs it!!). And of course the biggest waste - paying the United Nations. Cut them out. Use that money to fix our infrastructure. Our bridges here in the N.E. need work desperately. (creates jobs !!!)

Take all these funds .. all of them .. and either give them back to the tax payer OR use them for ALL AMERICANS. There are social programs in place to help those who fall on difficult times. There are social programs in place to help those who inherit difficult situations. These funds could pay for free medical care; free college; upgrading of our infrastructure (creating job growth)... etc.

If you want more programs, programs that all americans could participate in, then I'd be open to that. But don't label them 'reparations'. That term is a fallicy IMHO.

In the end it is up to the individual. The person can use the programs that are available or they can not. I found the US Army and went to work in the military while at the same time getting my college for free. I found a way.

Since we are chatting HH .. I have a question or two ... I have never understood black on black crime. Considering the difficulties that are sometimes inherited by those of the black community; WHY is black on black crime so high?? Do you know? It's a complete mystery to me why some black people, who call each other brother and sister, many times go on to destroy the lives of their fellow black Americans. And why do black people call themselves 'African Americans' when it was their fellow Africans who sold them to slavers to begin with?? I would think that if anything black people wouldn't be too happy about their ancestors being mistreated and enslaved by Africans like that. They were, and yet their great-great-great- grandchildren hold Africa in such high regard.

Black on black crime - www.hhscenter.org...
Ya'll are beating each other up and killing each other. That doesn't help the situations that some black poeple are born into.

Just sincerely curious. If you want to answer ... great. If you choose not to ... that's fine. Those are two things I have never understood about some black Americans.

edited for spelling and to add a link.



[edit on 9/21/2006 by FlyersFan]

Originally posted by HarlemHottie

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
What do you mean when you use the term "Dominant Culture"?

"everybody thinks" Mel Gibson is a Nazi...
That's an example of the DC working for a minority of the population, in this case, Jews.

Tony Snow says 'tar baby,' ... That was a figure of speech!

That's an example of how the DC never works for this minority population.

Mel Gibson's drunk ramblings aren't enough to convince me that he's anti-Semitic. The words he used certainly are and he certainly might be anti-Semitic, considering his uber-religious associations, but I don't know his mind.

Tony Snow's use of a figure of speech isn't enough to convince me that he's racist. It's clear that "tar baby" is sometimes used as a racial slur and considering his conservative right connections, he certainly may be racist, but again, I don't know his mind.

But it sounds like, to you, the Dominant Culture are the people who disagree with the majority of the black population's point of view or interests. If they think Mel Gibson is Anti-Semitic, yet think Tony Snow was just using a figure of speech, they must be against black people and so therefore are part of the Dominant Culture.

So, because of what someone thinks, they are relegated to the ugly station of Dominant Culture (anti-blacks, racists, if you will) ... for their thoughts.

(Slightly paraphrased to soften the expletive) Mel Gibson said, "Freaking Jews... The Jews are responsible for all the wars in the world." Gibson then asked the deputy, "Are you a Jew?"

CLEARLY anti-Semitic statements.

Tony Snow said: "Having said that, I don't want to hug the tar baby of trying to comment on the program." on the subject of the NSA phone database.

Talking about the NSA wiretapping in his very first White House briefing, where one would think he'd prefer to make a good impression.

Is it so clearly a racist comment? Are you absolutely SURE that this statement makes him a racist? I'm not. But because I might think that Mel's obvious anti-Semitic statements make him a bigot, but I might think that Tony Snow's comment doesn't necessarily make him a racist, I'm one of the Dominant Culture... I'm against blacks.

Tony Snow didn't say (drunk or sober) "Freaking Blacks! Blacks are responsible for all the crime in this country! Are you black"???

I can't say on this board what I think about your line of logic, HH. Suffice it to say that I disagree.

But after catching up with this thread, which was an altogether unpleasant and disheartening experience, I can honestly say that I don't want any part of what's going on here. If anyone here, black, white, blue or green, thinks that this thread has anything to do with solving race relations, I am dumbfounded and in complete disagreement. Maybe it will eventually resolve into something positive, but I honestly don't have what it takes to stick around and watch. It has totally degenerated and it's unhealthy for me to even be here. Reading this leaves a black spot on my spirit.

I have never had my character so abused, so attacked, so dishonored and misrepresented in my life, as by you Ceci. You have me absolutely wrong. You couldn't be more wrong about me.
politics.abovetopsecret.com...

And Harlem Hottie and Saphronia, I’m sorry to point this out, but it seems that neither of you are willing to even suggest that Ceci has been out of line in her attacks against my character. Does that mean you agree with her? You certainly have plenty to say in support of her, and you don’t hesitate to set the white people straight when they strike back at her (in defense of your race, of course), but when Ceci makes these spiteful attacks against my character in public, you are strangely and sadly silent.

I can’t help but think that this choice of yours serves not to improve race relations, but to cement the divide between the races. Because I have no doubt that if a white person attacked me, you’d both stand up brave and fierce to defend my honor. But Ceci can slam all over on me and you have not a thing to say. You will defend your race, but not your friend. I'm the wrong color. Please rest in the knowledge that if anyone attacked one of you – one my friends’ character, I would powerfully defend you, regardless the color of the attacker.

And I'm not their friend just the same?

I knew this would happen.

The same question was asked of you about the horrible and obscene attacks against me. And you, had no answer.

And you did the very same spiteful attacks on me not only in this thread, but other places on the board.

Remember who did what first. It all started with "controlling".

What kind of friend are you to put the people we mutually know in the middle of our disagreement?

I wish you would stop playing drama queen and work to make this thread better. I made a conscious decision that I would try.

How about you?



[edit on 21-9-2006 by ceci2006]

Well said, BH... and I have to agree.

I have, until now, kept out of the bitching and fighting that has taken place in this thread, and have worked hard to stay focused tightly on topic. But I must make an exception now.

Rarely in my life have I been witness to such racist tripe as:

Originally posted by ceci2006
Or do they have something in their biological make-up that makes them ignore the things that people of color have been trying to tell them?

And when I have, it is usually from the mouth of some ignorant ape that is not worth my time and trouble. Statements such as that do not improve racial relations.

And regarding:

Originally posted by ceci2006
It all started with "controlling".

I read the post that you are referring to, Ceci. And I had a completely different reaction to it. There is nothing wrong with being a 'controlling' person. Hell, I am one. I am married to one. I've worked for them. It's not a big deal. All it means is that the person has a strong personality, and likes to have things go their way. It is not an insult, racial or otherwise.

I see two things that must happen if racial relations are to improve:

1) Racism - in all directions must stop.
2) People who have been on the receiving end of racism must forgive.

Now. 'Forgive' does not mean saying it was OK.
It does not mean denying it happened.
It does not mean it should be forgotten. Else how will we learn?

It does help provide the closure necessary to begin the undeniable healing that must occur if we are to have any hope as a culture.
It does mean letting go of any hope or intent to change the past.

It takes strong people to forgive massive, undeniable wrongs done to them.

edit for spelling

[edit on 21-9-2006 by Open_Minded Skeptic]

When you started these threads discussing racism I thought it was a wonderful idea. Discuss the various issues, and maybe, just maybe, come to better understand racism in all its ugliness. Because to understand a problem better is to solve the problem, or make it less of a problem. Noble idea, not so noble results. Instead of discussion we've got blatent racism, accusations of racism, character assassination, and on and on and on.

I for one am tired of it. My own character has come under attack, along with many others.

It's useless to attempt anything resembling dialouge, as it degenerates into accusations before a page is even filled.

Majic, if you are reading this...next step is up to you, my freind. Do we continue on in this vein, accomplishing exactly nothing, save rousing anger? Or maybe call it good and attempt at a later date to start again. Or something in between?

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
If anyone here, black, white, blue or green, thinks that this thread has anything to do with solving race relations, I am dumbfounded and in complete disagreement.

You are right. And when you are right ... you are right. You get absolutely no arguement from me. You are spot on. The title should be changed to 'racist rants, lies, and personal insults - devoid of warnings'.

edited for spelling


[edit on 9/21/2006 by FlyersFan]

FlyersFan and Benevolent Heretic.

Completely and totally agree with both of you.

from BH
And Harlem Hottie and Saphronia, I’m sorry to point this out, but it seems that neither of you are willing to even suggest that Ceci has been out of line in her attacks against my character. Does that mean you agree with her? You certainly have plenty to say in support of her, and you don’t hesitate to set the white people straight when they strike back at her (in defense of your race, of course), but when Ceci makes these spiteful attacks against my character in public, you are strangely and sadly silent.

I can’t help but think that this choice of yours serves not to improve race relations, but to cement the divide between the races. Because I have no doubt that if a white person attacked me, you’d both stand up brave and fierce to defend my honor. But Ceci can slam all over on me and you have not a thing to say. You will defend your race, but not your friend. I'm the wrong color. Please rest in the knowledge that if anyone attacked one of you – one my friends’ character, I would powerfully defend you, regardless the color of the attacker.

Absolutely true, BH. Many are puzzled because of the actions of HH and Saphronia. I have asked straight out why they do this, and have received no response.

This thread was never intended to solve or improve race relations, from the very beginning where HH and ceci attacked GradyPhilpott. It's degenerated into a forum of denial that they can do or say anything wrong. It's disgusting.

And "ignorant ape" is not racist? OMS, I expected better from you.

*Sigh*

It makes me sad that none of you ever got anything out of this except to focus on my behavior.

If BH feels upset by it, she built the framework of this thread along with the rest of you.

And if you feel "disturbed"? You created the climate. Not me.

It makes me laugh that it never occurred to you all that she has put the people we both know in the middle of our disagreement instead of settle it ourselves.

But when I stop laughing, I can only shake my head and feel horrible for the time wasted because of this.

It's alright. No harm. No foul. It is Saph and HH's own choice whether they want to answer her or not.

And yes, I do forgive her. I've asked for apology many times.

But who won't answer?

[edit on 21-9-2006 by ceci2006]

Originally posted by ceci2006
And I'm not their friend just the same?

I have no idea whether you're friends with them. That's none of my business.

The same question was asked of you about the horrible and obscene attacks against me. And you, had no answer.

As far as I know, I have made no horrible and obscene attacks against you. None. If so, then it should be no problem for you to show them to me. It's time for you to put up or shut up. And I mean exact quotes, not something you misunderstood or just put "quote marks" around.

I have explained and apologized for what you considered to be an insult, even though I meant no offense. And you have been attacking me (and others) in every post up to and including your most recent one:

I wish you would stop playing drama queen and work to make this thread better. I made a conscious decision that I would try.

You want to make the thread better and your best attempt is to call me a drama queen right off the bat? Is that your first step toward better race relations? Good job!

How about you?

I have done everything in my power to make this thread better because the subject matter is important to me. Read my posts over the past few pages. I have done everything I could to return this thread to the subject under a constant barrage of attacks against my character by you. We are never going to be friends. We never have been.

But until today, I had hoped that we could talk about this rationally, yet you continue to attack and "quote" words I didn't even say:

Originally posted by ceci2006
And if you feel "disturbed"? You created the climate. Not me.

I didn't join this thread until page 5. The climate was already well-established. I tried to bring it back to the subject, in fact, and I've been doing so ever since.

Originally posted by ceci2006
And yes, I do forgive her. I've asked for apology many times.

When I forgive someone, I don't keep bringing it up. Again and again and again and again. You say you have forgiven me, but I don't believe you. If you had, you wouldn't bring it up at every opportunity.

And you've "asked for apology"? Excuse me?? I don't know what to further apologize for. And even if I did, it wouldn't make any difference at all. You won't really forgive me. Talk about paying lip service.

Please, you do bring it up again. You've made another post that has really made things awry.

And yes, it is your business that some of the people we mutually know are friends.

You are to blame for creating this climate. And you deserve the blame for being a drama queen. You brought up this petty mess. And now, you have only yourself to feel sad for what has happened.

I still think that what you did was terribly rotten on top of all the other things you have said to me.

But, yes, I forgive you. Because I do have forgiveness for you despite what you've done.

But I really do not want to hear your explainations right now because your post is what started this mess. And for three threads I have had to put up with your tactics.

So, you've got what you've wanted: pity and attention.

Now it's up to you to try and make this thread better. You've got the podium now.

Use it.


[edit on 21-9-2006 by ceci2006]