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What can we do to address race-relations and solve racism?

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posted on Sep, 20 2006 @ 07:51 PM
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Pshh! Darn my time! Three or four pages since I was last here...I feel so lost.

On the subject of an apology from the USG with no admission of guilt:

I find the idea of that degrading. First of all, why would you apologize for something if you can't admit being guilty? And even more, the laws are guilty. So, what's being said here is the only way the government can apologize for the crimes against humanity committed upon a good portion of its citizens is to lie. Lie to the black folks so there is never any reason for atonement. If that's the only way an apology can come I'm glad there hasn't been one.

Another thing that interested me is that we are back to money-money-money. Seagull asked what will the money do? It isn't about the money. It's about the years of subjugation--it's about the crime. I will use the word again: atonement. But, I'm glad that I at least got a glimpse into the reason some white folk aren't empathetic about what happened in the past. Even if I don't accept the reasoning I can see the thinking behind it, now. For black people there is a connection to be made when it comes to the extreme poverty that a portion of our citizens are living. In my thinking the crime of slavery led to the crime of jim crow which brought about systemic inequality that still exist today. Many here don't see it that way. Since poverty in this country is connected to education--years upon years of systemic ill and under education of black people created extreme poverty in those communities. And don't get me started on the inequality of judicial system...that's a whole other can of worms.

Before ATS solves racism like only ATS can
....we have to deal with race-relations and the misconceptions among us. I see what's going on here as exactly what goes on in the real world. It comes off looking like us against them when it's a fundamental misunderstanding of how we view the conditions that were created by slavery. Along with a certain fear of "getting the blame" that's been expressed here, you have a very mixed stew of misunderstandings and 50 pages of almost nothing because of the reasoning that divides us. If the government had the bizzalls to tell the truth maybe Americans could exhale, and accept it without fear and guilt. I just don't think we can have a completely cohesive society until the government calls one of the ugliest crimes in our history a crime. South Africa did it immediately and there was no lasting bitterness because they took all the crimes head on...while we buried it where it's still rotting and festering. Don't pay any attention to that stench. We are all fine. It's all good.

I'm more for an apology than reparations. I'm for affirmative action and equal education, too, these things have helped bring many black folk out of the poverty created by the law.

If the government wanted to refund my grandparents their tax money I'd prolly cheer. All the living victims of separate but equal get their tax money back and tax exempt status for the rest of their lives. That would be some good reparations right there. (I guess I been leading up to this for a while now, yes I would like to be tax exempt too, but its for the kidz man! It's for the kids!)


[edit on 20-9-2006 by Saphronia]




posted on Sep, 20 2006 @ 09:11 PM
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Originally posted by Saphronia
On the subject of an apology from the USG with no admission of guilt:

I find the idea of that degrading. First of all, why would you apologize for something if you can't admit being guilty?


I wish you had more time, too...


The more I thought about the apology and after reading OMS's post about how the gov't wouldn't be giving a real apology, the more I have to agree. If someone who had actually supported slavery was truly remorseful and apologized, that would be one thing, but sadly, that's not possible.

I'll respond to the rest of your post later, Saph, but DH and I are both sick. He has 102.5 fever. Ugh!



posted on Sep, 20 2006 @ 10:12 PM
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Originally posted by jsobecky
I've heard the music defended as being a realistic look at black life. So how does that affect the perceptions of blacks?

I'm a bit confused by this question. It doesn't make sense to me because I'm reading it as "how do the perceptions of some blacks affect the perceptions of other blacks?" Is that what you meant?

Originally posted by Saphronia
I want to know why--prettier words can't be used to address reparations and apologies for the treatment of black people in this country.

Because there are no pretty words for us. The dominant culture of this country has us in a position where, no matter how they've wronged us in the past and continue to do so today, if we bring it up, we're asking for hand-outs. It's like, if I shot someone, and he was laying on the ground bleeding to death, crying for help, and I said, "Awww, look at the little cry-baby," or "What's that? You need medical help? You always want something." And then we tell the world how to treat other people... if this is the method, I think the world is better off without our help.


Originally posted by Saphronia
I just want to know why the idea [of reparations and apologies] is so repulsive that it draws such a grimy reaction.
...
I really would like a "get over it" person to explain the disgust that the thought of reparations to black people brings upon them.

Yeah, I'd like to hear that too. A few posters have given us the PC version of why they're against repaprations but, so far, no one has addressed the "disgust."

Originally posted by HarlemHottie
When we were talking about Malcolm X, I defended him. Two posters ... expressed disappointment with my stance ... I wondered why.

I asked a few people in RL what they thought of this. To a person, they all said that the 'disappointment' was in reaction to my position as the 'good black.' Apparently, I had given the impression that I was 'good,' meaning assimilationist and not-militant, but my support for Malcolm disrupted the persona that other posters had built based on my other posts. Any thoughts?

Originally posted by Duzey
I believe they [black people] are seeking an apology from the government for years of institutionalized racism, such as the segregation laws. ... Does that seem unreasonable?

We don't think it's unreasonable, but, based on the reactions to this suggestion, it's too much for some people to give in exchange for murder, rape, and enslavement.

Originally posted by jsobecky
One more question for all: how would you describe the dominant culture in the US today? What is bad about it, if anything?

I would describe it as white, today, and since the beginning. That's bad because other people live here. This is not, and never was, a white country.


Originally posted by jsobecky
Take New Orleans, for example. What would you call the dominant culture there. French? Cajun?

How about Tucson? Mexican? American Indian?

Which cultures are oppressed in those cities?

I don't know. The last time I went to NO, I was in one of those strollers with the little umbrella. All I could see was a forest of knees.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
And can someone explain to me... What do you mean when you use the term "Dominant Culture"?

It's hard to put a finger on it. I think it can be summed up by the words, "everybody thinks..." Like, because of media spin and over-saturation, "everybody thinks" Mel Gibson is a Nazi. No, not you (maybe?), not me, but in every discussion of the non-issue, people call him an anti-semite, and that's taken serioulsy, but when someone else says, hey, he was drunk, it's like, Suuuuure, make excuses, you Nazi!

That's an example of the DC working for a minority of the population, in this case, Jews.

Meanwhile, when a sober Tony Snow says 'tar baby,' and blacks call him racist, the DC tells us, Noooo, he's not racist. That was a figure of speech!

That's an example of how the DC never works for this minority population.



posted on Sep, 20 2006 @ 10:30 PM
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Saph, now you deserve the WATS, more than you ever know. Your words hit the nail on the head especially in what we need to do in discussing this most vital issue.



You have voted Saphronia for the Way Above Top Secret award.



You have said what has needed to be said in this entire thread. It is filled with misconceptions and it seems that even when one tries to delve deeper into the truth, all you get is a lot of heart-ache and a whole bunch of pain.

But, I take your earlier advice as a form of hope: to proceed.

We must proceed and continue these talks in order to try and get to that middle ground.

That is why despite all the bickering, I continue to look on the thread and participate.

Sadly, on the notion of an apology, I believe that one is never coming because it is hard enough for people to realize exactly what happened in the first place. And when people speak of the pain and the wrongdoing of the crime that was perpetrated against not only Blacks, but other people of color, it is easier to call it a "fantasy", "a lie" or a "delusion".

But I would seriously want an apology for the purposes of atonement. But my cynical side tells me that some folk aren't ready for that. Because they are too stubborn to see what actually happened, they would rather forego closure in order to stay in the same stubborn rigidness of their belief systems regarding slavery, Jim Crow, the Civil Rights era and the modern age.

The saddest thing to me is that people could be easily bought off by the notions of "equality". We are getting closer to "equality", but it still isn't here. And we're barely getting close to acceptance. And if it takes this much for others to even entertain an apology, "restitution" of any kind will be out of the question.

As long as people don't have empathy, they won't get it. No one has the capacity to every delve deeper into the horrific nature of slavery, let alone what happened in the past fifty years. As long as people continue to skim over the more informational and depth of these issues, the misconceptions and the finger-wagging is all you're going to get.

Until people have the guts to discuss racism as it is without any apprehension, there will be no sense of feeling or apology. Until they have the guts to walk in the shoes of the persecuted, there will be not any emotion to what any person of color has been saying.

For those who are like a brick wall and continue to ignore everything except what they know, they are the least emotional of them all because they will continue to have their sense of right and wrong without any grey areas in between. They refuse to ask the real questions. And if they do, they don't really want to hear the answers because it is "disturbing" to them. They rather let the experiences of others bounce off of their exterior and continue on without any capacity for feeling.

I have to reiterate again that this is not a tea party here. We're not delicately going over these matters. We're talking turkey here. And people have to be brave enough to be open-minded and embrace what we might learn without blame or guilt. They can't resort to letting their fear getting ahold of them. It's going to be ugly. But hopefully, we will be taking some step forward instead of sinking in quicksand.

Either people are going to stay confused and dwell in misconception. Or, they're going to get out of their misconceptions by having the guts to penetrate these hard issues and get somewhere past the boundaries.

But, I wonder, if people are truly to that point in order to understand the deepness of racism that not only exist in this country, but the rest of the world. The cynic in me says no. But the hope in me says yes.

That is why you truly deserve praise for your comments made today.


[edit on 21-9-2006 by ceci2006]



posted on Sep, 21 2006 @ 03:06 AM
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Originally posted by ceci2006
Or do they have something in their biological make-up that makes them ignore the things that people of color have been trying to tell them?


Wow.. are you going to start measuring our craniums next to prove that our white skin effects our brain size as well?


Obviously you think it makes us racist. All skin colour does is effect how people react to the sunlight and how much VD we absorb. This does not effect our behaviour or charactor.. to claim that it does IS in fact RACIST.

Now PLEASE

Stop making racist statements against whites.

[edit on 21-9-2006 by riley]



posted on Sep, 21 2006 @ 03:08 AM
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Originally posted by jsobecky
I've heard the music defended as being a realistic look at black life. So how does that affect the perceptions of blacks?

from HH
I'm a bit confused by this question. It doesn't make sense to me because I'm reading it as "how do the perceptions of some blacks affect the perceptions of other blacks?" Is that what you meant?

Poorly worded, I'll admit.

If blacks are worried about negative images being portrayed about them, why do they support rap?


Originally posted by Saphronia
I want to know why--prettier words can't be used to address reparations and apologies for the treatment of black people in this country.

from HH
Because there are no pretty words for us.

Why the need for pretty words? To be PC? As long as they are not libelous, I see no problem with them.


Originally posted by Saphronia
I really would like a "get over it" person to explain the disgust that the thought of reparations to black people brings upon them.

Did someone use the word "disgust"? I may have missed that one.


Originally posted by jsobecky
One more question for all: how would you describe the dominant culture in the US today? What is bad about it, if anything?

from HH
I would describe it as white, today, and since the beginning. That's bad because other people live here. This is not, and never was, a white country.

So you would describe the culture of Somalia to be bad? And Canada? And France?


from HH
Meanwhile, when a sober Tony Snow says 'tar baby,' and blacks call him racist, the DC tells us, Noooo, he's not racist. That was a figure of speech!

That's an example of how the DC never works for this minority population.

Are you saying Tony Snow is a drunk? What have you got to back that up?

Meanwhile, Hillary was called to task for her "plantation" remark, so I don't quite get what you mean.



posted on Sep, 21 2006 @ 03:17 AM
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Originally posted by riley

Originally posted by ceci2006
Or do they have something in their biological make-up that makes them ignore the things that people of color have been trying to tell them?


Wow.. are you going to start measuring our craniums next to proove that our white skin effects our brain size as well?


Obviously you think it makes us racist. All skin colour does is effect how people react to the sunlight and how much VD we absorb. This does not effect our behaviour or charactor.. to claim that it does IS in fact RACIST.

Now PLEASE

Stop making racist statements against whites.

[edit on 21-9-2006 by riley]

riley
It's only racist if you or I would say it about blacks. Otherwise, it's a "tough question" that we are "pussyfooting around" so we don't have to deal with the issues.


I'm surprised at you, riley. And disappointed. I would have thought you understood that double standards are OK here.



posted on Sep, 21 2006 @ 03:48 AM
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That's okay. riley has a right to say what she did. I am very profusely sorry for hurting the sensitivities of some here for my question, but there is a proclivity to ignore what we're trying to tell you. I might as well say this:

She has to acknowledge and show empathy for the suffering of people of color. She has to stop her tirade about recognizing just one race over the suffering of other races.

Furthermore, if she stops treating me badly, then we might have a dialogue. But until she learns some politeness, I won't respond to her again.

Then we can talk turkey. Now who's pussyfooting?


And besides, Darwin and those who thought like him did biologically worse assessments on Black people. Where's your anger for them?

Oh yes, I remember. You don't have any anger for the Blacks and other people of color marginalized by their studies. You could give a damn.


[edit on 21-9-2006 by ceci2006]



posted on Sep, 21 2006 @ 04:23 AM
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Originally posted by Saphronia
I want to know why--prettier words can't be used to address reparations and apologies for the treatment of black people in this country.


No one has the empathy to do so. Since people have little or no feeling about reparations in this country, there will be no pretty words spent on addressing our wounds from the crime of slavery. More time is being spent trying wiggle out of an restitution to Black folks that actually considering the treachery and horrific nature of that age.




Originally posted by Saphronia
I just want to know why the idea [of reparations and apologies] is so repulsive that it draws such a grimy reaction.
...
I really would like a "get over it" person to explain the disgust that the thought of reparations to black people brings upon them.


You might not get a reaction from a "get over it" person on this accord because they would probably by choice ignore your question. I've asked it many times and no one will answer. Here too, there isn't an ability to reach out and understand the depth of what happened in regards to slavery and in the 20th century. They don't care. And those who do care about the suffering Black people cannot convince them to change their mind.



Originally posted by HarlemHottie
When we were talking about Malcolm X, I defended him. Two posters ... expressed disappointment with my stance ... I wondered why.


I also agree with what your respondents said about this issue. People expressed "disappointment" because it didn't appease their sensibilities and perceptions about "how Malcolm X is supposed to be" in their conception opposed to having an open-mind about possible changes he had made regarding his stance.


quote: Originally posted by Duzey
I believe they [black people] are seeking an apology from the government for years of institutionalized racism, such as the segregation laws. ... Does that seem unreasonable?


This is a difficult question which I tried to explore in previous posts. But, to sum up, it would be nice to have an apology from the government, but that would take politicians, a citizenry and a President who is fully committed to seeing this through for the purposes of healing the nation from the scars of racism.

But since we've had no national leaders who could even speak about the healing, how do we start? How do we make other citizens understand if they turn a deaf ear to the past and claim that slavery was "long ago"?

It doesn't seem unreasonable. It's just impossible for anyone at this point to do something positive about this. There would be protests in the streets about "special treatment"--especially after 9/11 indoctrination of "fear".



quote: Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
And can someone explain to me... What do you mean when you use the term "Dominant Culture"?


Dominant culture is the primary culture that is powerful in a given society. The culture who is in power disseminates their own ideology which is forcibly accepted by other social groups. Any group that falls out of favor from the dominant culture is instantly marginalized. As a result, they do not have a voice in society when the ideologies, social practices and norms of the dominant culture are reinforced.

That means everyone is rated on a scale between "acculturation" and "transgression".

Those who abide by the DC are "acculturated".

Those who rebel against the DC are considered by the elite of this system as "transgressors".


[edit on 21-9-2006 by ceci2006]



posted on Sep, 21 2006 @ 04:29 AM
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riley

Please accept my apologies. Not all of us Yankees are as rude as that.

I know that you see the double standard in the accusation of "her tirade about recognizing just one race over the suffering of others." I don't see you like that at all. As a matter of fact, this whole thread has been about the plight of the suffering of blacks over all others.

And the statement "She's also proved that ignoring what people of color have said is a biological trait." is yet another example of a blatantly racist statement. Once again, not the sentiments of all Americans, esp black Americans.

And I know that you subscribe to the notion that respect is earned, not demanded. And it is a two way street.

Regarding the reference to Darwin, I know that it is presumptuous for someone to think they are in the same category, regardless of their self-scripted titles. The words of Lloyd Bentsen to Dan Quayle come to mind:


Senator, I served with Jack Kennedy, I knew Jack Kennedy, Jack Kennedy was a friend of mine. Senator, you are no Jack Kennedy. (Prolonged shouts and applause)
en.wikipedia.org...


Once again, please continue to contribute. Don't let the lonely words of one dissuade you.



posted on Sep, 21 2006 @ 04:33 AM
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One more thing, riley.... I know that it's difficult to keep track of the thread when some go back and EDIT their offensive remarks after posting them. But if you need the original remarks for reference, just let me know.



posted on Sep, 21 2006 @ 04:49 AM
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In the scheme of things, who cares?

I apologized profusely. There's nothing else I can do.

But I suppose jsobecky took that survey and asked every one of his fellow Americans (including biologists and medical researchers) about how they feel about my question. If this question was asked in the AMA journal, would it be regarded as racist? Probably so. Probably not, because it was in a scientific context. Scientist view things differently.

But then again, some of us in America refuse to be collaborators and tattlers. So,yes, we're not like you.

But, jsobecky, you're right. You can do no wrong. You should be nominated as a saint with the way you handled yourself on the board and the thread. I'm sure there will be a flood of posts saying so.

But when you speak up for another person of color without using condescending language, I'll be quite surprised.

Keep your watch. I hope I can keep you busy.



[edit on 21-9-2006 by ceci2006]



posted on Sep, 21 2006 @ 04:54 AM
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Originally posted by ceci2006
That's okay. riley has a right to say what she did.

Of course I did. I, unlike you.. fight against racism. You PROMOTE it.

As long as she acknowledges and shows empathy for the suffering of people of color.

I have and do but I'm not going to kiss your arse, suck up to you and let you attack me or an entire race just because your skin is darker than mine. This seems to be what you want white people to do. Take responsibilty.

Plus she stops her tirade about recognizing just one race over the suffering of others.

I don't.

Then she wouldn't be such a bigot towards black people.

I'm not.. show me where I have. I have problems with things YOU have said. Of course.. as usual you have tried the "It's because I'm black". :shk: Have I argued with HH or Saph or anyone else who is a self proclaimed 'black'? If I argue with someone it's because I don't agree with them.. not their colour. [Actually I probably have argued with 'black people' here but their gender or skin colour is not something I'm really interested in.. it's as irrelevent as eye colour IMO.]

Take responsibilty for your own behaviour and don't blame it on your delusional idea that all whites are racist.

She hasn't demonstrated one thing to prove she isn't.

Yes I have.. but I shouldn't need to 'prove I'm not racist' because I'm white.. why do you think I should? Because I'm white of course..


She's also proved that ignoring what people of color have said is a biological trait.

No I haven't.. all I have proved is that humans beings tend to go on the defence when people try force them to be accountable for crimes they have not commited.

She hasn't said one ounce of understanding about the issues affect them. Unfortunately, she has not demonstrated any comphrension about this at all.

In fact I have. I recounted my own experiences of persecution. Doesnt that count?

I mean, show some proper respect and manners to people of color and maybe I might.

Oh I see.. because I have a problem with YOU I'm being racist against all black people? Don't use your race to justify your own racist behaviour.

If she stops treating me badly, then we might have a dialogue. But until she learns some politeness, I won't.

How about you show some respect and politeness and stop being racist? I already told you it pisses me off.. or are you trying to bait me and others who are white?

Oh yes, I remember. You don't have any anger for the Blacks and other people of color marginalized by their studies.

Nice try but I actually believe [as do the scientists] that whites originated from african and that our skin colour is just a mutation so that we could absorb more VD in darker climates. YOU are the one who believes that skin colour influences chractor. If you didn't you wouldn't keep insisting that all whites are racists.



posted on Sep, 21 2006 @ 04:58 AM
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All right. You put on your case. There's nothing more I can say. You have been heard. I "get it". I will try to change.

The only thing I ask is that you show some politeness, stop with your "racist behaviour" and demonstrate some changes in your attitude. Until that happens, then we can't exchange a polite conversation. And if we can't, there's no way to reach a middle ground. Inquire politely, show some understanding and perhaps I will consider it.

Post it in big-sized font, and I won't. You're trying to bait me with these blitzkreig attacks in the middle of topic discussions. Until that stops, there's nothing to else to politely discuss.

Unfortunately, that's your choice to be pissed off, not mine.

Actually contribute something to the topic we're discussing instead of focusing it all on one thing. Teach us something new. Answer the question about reparations and the "dominant culture". Address your concerns to all of us.

Then, we'll get somewhere.

At this point of time, I don't need to justify to you whether I'm racist or not. I should have as much leeway to express myself as you do without derison or chastisement. In fact, naming racists are not the reason why these talks need to be held anyway. The most relevant thing here is that we are all exchanging views.

I am not using my race to say that you are racist. Your entire demeanor emits it along with the condescension of your words and the misconception of the topics. You have some fascinating views on the subject, believe me. But you also say some offensive things as well and you don't even account for your own perceptions except to judge mine instead.

Heck. I agree with Saph all the way on the perception of this thread. It is Racism 101 ATS style.

Look, I'm profusely sorry for what happened to you and your friend. That was a horrible act of racism. I've said it many times in many ways. You deserve justice. You truly do.

[edit on 21-9-2006 by ceci2006]



posted on Sep, 21 2006 @ 06:12 AM
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Originally posted by ceci2006
All right. You put on your case. There's nothing more I can say. You have been heard. I "get it". I will try to change.

I hope so.. though you've said this before and you haven't. Nearly every post of your has "Whites are/do/don't/always/never/have/want/hate etc.....". You do understand that persistantly making generalisations about an entire race of people is racist don't you? That it's actually promoting that which you pretend to be against? Nope.. didn't think you did.

The only thing I ask is that you show some politeness, stop with your "racist behaviour" and demonstrate some changes in your attitude.

Don't pass the buck.. I haven't said AYTHING racist and you know it.
I have criticized your behaviour and contempt and hatred you have expressed for other members and other races. How is that being racist? What do you use to make this assessment of me? Is it just a childish "No I'm not you are!!"
? I have judged you based on actual racist statements you've made.. what have you judged me on? Let me guess..


Actually contribute something to the topic we're discussing instead of focusing it all on one thing. Teach us something new.

Granted.. your anti-white remarks are nothing new to this thread.. but honestly.. if you WANT whites to feel some empathy for your situation [as they have indeed expressed compassion for other blacks on this thread].. it might help if you didn't keep abusing them just because they have white skin. It's just a colour.. not a statement of beliefs or intent. I don't know why you think it's wrong for whites to be racist when you think it's completely okay for you to be racist. It's not.. and you will not gain ANY credibility or 'racial authority' on this subject while you continue to practice it.

Answer the question about reparations and the "dominant culture".

My county is fairly multicultural so your request is NA.. it also has a vastly different history than America so we don't have the same historical baggage. We also have poor white people here so obviously they don't get any special treatment.

Come to think of it we do have free health care [you don't get left in the street if you're shot.. not that guns are legal of course
] and a fantastic social security system that everyone is enititled to get without a race or time limit [providing you have an address.. which is I concede a crack in the system if you're homeless] and native Australians are entitled to extra money and help.. as are immigrants. We believe in a fair go for everyone.

I really do live in a great country.


-------
Edit [after thought and typos]. Not going to both re-quoting and answering your edits. I find nearly everything to be hypocritical, racist and most of all counterproductive. You are not helping black people.. you have only showed that black people are just as capable of racism as white people.. and you have expressed no remourse for it. You said ages ago in a thread that your parents fought for civil rights.. were they fighting against racism or just white on black racism? Do they know you spew anti-white rhetoric here at ATS? Would they be proud?
Ever heared the song "Strange fruit"?.. it was considered an anthom of black oppression [lynching] but was actually written by a Jewish guy. You consider them a 'white race'. Please tell me again how whites are biologically incapable of understanding or feeling empathy? It seems the only whites you want to discuss are the KKK and slaveowners..


[edit on 21-9-2006 by riley]



posted on Sep, 21 2006 @ 06:25 AM
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Originally posted by HarlemHottie

Originally posted by Saphronia
I just want to know why the idea [of reparations and apologies] is so repulsive that it draws such a grimy reaction.

A few posters have given us the PC version of why they're against repaprations but, so far, no one has addressed the "disgust."


You wanted a non-PC version ... here you go.

No one said 'disgust'. Anger would be more in line. Anger at the prospect of someone taking money, MY money, that they haven't earned but that I have. Anger at the prospect of making a forced (and fake) apology for slavery when in fact I have never owned a slave, nor did any of my relatives (some even died fighting against it). Am I sorry that slavery happened? Yes. Is it my fault? Not a chance.

If you really want to know why almost all people are against handing their hard earned money over to black people, simply because they are black, then read these articles.

www.adversity.net...
www.frontpagemag.com...
www.sierratimes.com...

Is it really so hard to understand? I earn it. I keep it. If someone wants money they go and earn it. They don't sit back and take it from those that do earn it.

There are plenty of government programs in place, that my tax money pays for, that are designed to help Americans who are in difficult situations. That includes poor black people. There are also college scholarships and loans available.

Self responsibility. Humble beginnings doesn't earn someone a right to take my hard earned money. None of my grandparents went to high school. My parents managed to go to high school and graduate. I was the first person in my family to go to college. I found a way ... I went in the Army and part of the 'pay' was that the government paid for school while I was in. Self responsibility. No one gets a free ride and we are not given the right to happiness .. we have to find it and make it ourselves.

I'm not sitting here demanding that all people in Connecticut hand me money because my native american indian ancestors were mistreated (raped, robbed, killed) by their ancestors. That would not be fair. They weren't even alive back then.

I'm not sitting here demanding that all the people in England hand me money because my Irish ancestors were mistreated (raped, robbed, enslaved) by them. My Irish ancestors had to flee Ireland leaving everything behind. Am I going to soak the people in England because of what happend? No. It's not their fault.

I'm not sitting here demanding that all black Americans pay me reparations because some of my ancestors died fighting against slavery in the civil war. I'm not sitting here demanding that all southerners pay me reparations because my ancestors died fighting against their ancestors having slaves. Those things would not be fair.

As for a government apology for past mistreatments ... at this point it would just be a political stunt. I have such a low opinion of politicians that I don't know how much good it would do or how honest it would be.

You asked for non PC ... there ya' go.

Edited to add a link

[edit on 9/21/2006 by FlyersFan]



posted on Sep, 21 2006 @ 06:29 AM
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I'm not passing the buck here. You are racist in your views as well. You are also closed-minded and refuse to be persuaded. You promote racism and get patted on the back for it--especially in like-minded circles. By all due respect, you are the true pretender here. There's no other way to say it. If you did treat people equally, you wouldn't be beligerent and condescending about how you handle racism. Instead, you'd just do it and show your complete understanding of others through your words, not to mention your observances. But you are simply not kind.

riley, you have said anti-black remarks. You've also demonstrated that you are only concerned about whites through your diatribes. You truly don't care what happens to other races.

As I mentioned before, you've said a lot of offensive things to me. But you see, you feel free enough to say them. Sadly enough, you see race in one way--in your own point of view. Everyone else's views tend to bounce off of you. Or else you joke about it and minimalize it away.

And by all due respect, it is not just all about a color. Colorism is ingrained in law, education, society as well as politics. This goes back into history. As I've mentioned before, it's beyond you and me. Until our politicians start to do something about it, then colorism will stay. And of course, I'm not the only person that uses a "color" to describe people around here. By all due respect, a lot of other people do too. They use colors afforded to race around here all the time. Some use it more than I do.

How else are you going to describe the differences in race when it has nothing to do with ethnicity?

The difference between you and me is that I've let your offensive comments slide or just don't give them as much weight as you do until you push me. You're fixated on the things people say. Because of that, you miss out on the more important concepts that people are trying to get across. You need to grasp the meaning of what people are trying to say a bit more.

You can be from the most multicultural of all multicultural places in the world. That doesn't change your views about race. Racists still live within the vicinity. So do wonderful people too.

But how they deal with the atmosphere there, depends on that person and the circles they are around--not to mention the open-mindedness that they have.

And yes, I've heard about "Strange Fruit". Billie Holiday sang it. And yes, I knew it was written by a Jewish songwriter. In fact, an entire program (and documentary) was made around it. It shows that people can empathize with each other beyond color especially when both have been through the worst that society has to offer. That is an example that people can truly feel the pain that others have experienced.

But, of course, without any indication of "colour", it would not make any sense at all. By dissecting the races and what was experienced, it would.

And how do you know I am not helping black people? Have you asked them? Have they said I wasn't? I think that is not your decision to make. And I also think you are being very arrogant in saying so. I would much rather think I am doing my part by providing this thread as a place to air out the different views on race.

That is more important to me. I've said all along that I've wanted people to understand each other. I continue to stick by my ideals whether you say so or not.

And my ideals are to only discuss the issues of racism and race-relations. Nothing more. Nothing less.

Or else, I could say that you are not helping white people. By spewing your anti-black/pro-white rhetoric, you make other posters of color feel you are worse than you really are. However, in the scheme of things, I don't care whether you're trying to help anyone or not.

And the difference here between you and me, is that I'm not on a mission to tell you how to do things. But you are with the utmost condescension and lack of understanding.

You're out to prove me wrong. Well fine. You've done that. Whoopie. Now we can get back to the topic.




[edit on 21-9-2006 by ceci2006]



posted on Sep, 21 2006 @ 07:08 AM
link   

Originally posted by jsobecky
If blacks are worried about negative images being portrayed about them, why do they support rap?

That's what I thought. Okay, first, you have to understand rap's 'place' in the black community. The population that listens to rap, for the most part, is the urban, under-40 crowd, born during or after the 70's. Black people in this group are rarely highly skilled, so when they see whites, it's usually the landlord, or their boss, or their doctor. That gives you a population that almost never enters a context where they expect to be on equal footing with whites. Honestly, they don't care what you think about them, because they don't see you. When they do see you (the generic 'you'), you sign whatever, or do whatever, and they move on with their day. If you, a white person they come into contact with, says something racist, they don't get too worked up, because, unfortunately, they expect it of you.

The population that worries about negative images portrayed in rap is made up of a lot of different groups, but the one thing they have in common is that they actually care what white people think about them, whether they're neighbors, or co-workers, or schoolmates. When/If a 'racial thing' happens to someone in this group, it's not just racist- it's personal- because they know you.

Did that clear it up? I can imagine it doesn't make too much sense from the outside.


Why the need for pretty words? To be PC? As long as they are not libelous, I see no problem with them.

That's your opinion and you're entitled to it. OTOH, if Larry King, because he's a Jew, is allowed to censure the use of the phrase 'mustard gas,' I think I have a right to demand the same 'kid-glove treatment.'



Originally posted by Saphronia
I really would like a "get over it" person to explain the disgust that the thought of reparations to black people brings upon them.

Did someone use the word "disgust"? I may have missed that one.

If you re-read her quote, you'll see that she never said anyone used the word 'disgust.' She was addressing the vitriolic tone of the comments.


Originally posted by jsobecky
So you would describe the culture of Somalia to be bad? And Canada? And France?

You missed my point. Somalia was, at some point, a black country. France was, at some point, a white country. Canada is a mutt, like us.



from HH
Meanwhile, when a sober Tony Snow says 'tar baby,' and blacks call him racist, the DC tells us, Noooo, he's not racist. That was a figure of speech!

That's an example of how the DC never works for this minority population.

Are you saying Tony Snow is a drunk? What have you got to back that up?

Whoa, whoa- calm down, jso. Where did I say Tony Snow was drunk? I said the opposite, that he, completely sober, is allowed to get away with using such inflammatory terms, while Mel Gibson was forced to grovel for something he said under the influence.

Jso, I want you to notice, most of the stuff you replied to, thinking I was completely crazy, was misunderstandings. You always read the worst into whatever I say. Why is that?



posted on Sep, 21 2006 @ 07:16 AM
link   

Originally posted by HarlemHottie
if Larry King, because he's a Jew, is allowed to censure the use of the phrase 'mustard gas,'


Larry King is Jewish?
Really? I thought he was athiest. I read that he's athiest and that he's in that book - 'Whos who in Hell' ... the one that lists all the famous athiests and what they have accomplished.

Side note ... it is alleged that some rather famous athiests didn't make the book and they got upset and wrote the author because they wanted to be in the next one that came out. Being in the book isn't a slam. It's like a badge of honor for athiests.

Seriously ... is he Jewish or athiest?



posted on Sep, 21 2006 @ 07:24 AM
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Originally posted by ceci2006
I'm not passing the buck here. You are racist in your views as well. You are also closed-minded and refuse to be persuaded.

1. No I am not.. you are lieing.
2. Defending whites [and myself] against your racist slurs doesn't mean I'm racist against blacks.. it just means I believe in mutual respect and equality.
3. PROVE IT.

Well, riley, you have said anti-black remarks as well.

Wow.. a blatent LIE. I invite you to go through ALL my posts.. quote them IN CONTEXT.. [and by that I mean the whole post/paragraph/question.. not half a sentence] include a page link and prove you aren't a liar and provide me with proof that I have been overtly racist against 'blacks'. Also.. criticisms directed at you personally do not qualify as racism either.. though it might be desperate.
If anyone actually believes you they can also go find out for themselves.
I'd respond to the rest of your post but instead I really only care about having this accusation of your justified.. I'm kind of really curious to see whether you can back that one up.




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