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What can we do to address race-relations and solve racism?

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posted on Sep, 20 2006 @ 05:31 PM
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Exactly, what I said, Rasobasi. Black people do not get anything because "equality" is supposed to be enough when that isn't being practiced at all. It wasn't then. And it isn't now.

So yes, in other words, we deserve nothing.

[edit on 20-9-2006 by ceci2006]




posted on Sep, 20 2006 @ 05:32 PM
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BH!!!!!

You keep posting what deserves a WATS, but again I have none left..

..


You need to hold off until I get more next month.

Great post, excellent sentiment.

Semper



posted on Sep, 20 2006 @ 05:34 PM
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What exactly did she say that others have said with less sentiment and no meaning behind it?

A lot of people say those words and they don't mean them.

They use it as a way to keep those who are disenfranchised at bay. They also use it as a way to keep the clamps down on the discussion of reparations until the next time.

No one is truly interested in reparations. They'll play at the issue, but they really do not want it to happen.

Instead, they'll use anything they think will satiate those who are doing the asking.

That is why there needs to be a little more honesty here. People can say those words and still go out the next day and treat Blacks as badly as they always did. They may say they will treat others with equality, but they don't do it. "Equality" is only lip service as a "feel good" tactic to avoid recognizing the more serious issues that happen because of racism.

That's why I don't buy it.

People can discuss all they want about reparations without getting into the uglier aspects of it. They can bring up anything to shore up their case against reparations, but forget that people actually suffered and died during this era with no payment at all. People were actually "willed" to other slave owners when the original Masters died. Insurance companies that are still in business today profited from the slave trade and they don't want to recognize it. There are many ugly repercussions that happened in regards to slavery that are still happening today, right down to the "ideology" of the "dominant culture".

The problem is that we can either really learn about slavery and what happened then, or just have a tea party discussion in which we discuss the lighter aspects of it so that everyone feels better and becomes a little more polite.

But still, racism, Darwinism and religion played a heavy aspect into slavery that still is carried on into the "collective unconscious" of white folk. They might not say it, but some of those actions are "played off" as nothing.

There are beautiful and generous white people in the world, but they are honest and sincere about their feelings.

There are others, who just say the words and hope that something sticks so they don't want to talk about the more problematic issues regarding race again.

I'd save my WATS if I were you.


[edit on 20-9-2006 by ceci2006]



posted on Sep, 20 2006 @ 05:47 PM
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Benevolent Heretic. Way Above on the way...I unlike some, apparently, have no doubts as to your sincerity. Keep right on keepin' on.



posted on Sep, 20 2006 @ 05:57 PM
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It's fine. I have no doubts about her sincerity as well. But I am quite cynical enough to continue the hard questions past the niceties. I'm sorry, but it's just the way I am: a tough interrogator.

There needs to be hard facts on both sides related to slavery instead of a few kernels.

You can give her all the WATS you want. But what have you truly learned about the suffering of Black people during the time of slavery? Nothing truly profound. I think that someone ought to bring in some of the more harsher aspects of slavery so that others can see why reparations are being called for. I especially vote for postings regarding the Middle Passage and the slave auctions. Now that was truly brutal. And of course, don't forget how the slave masters raped and used Black female slaves for breeding.

Several of my female ancestors were used for such a purpose.


[edit on 20-9-2006 by ceci2006]



posted on Sep, 20 2006 @ 06:01 PM
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Ceci

BH posted a positive a sincere, thoughtful and emotional comment.

Exactly what you have been asking for again and again.

Why do you dismiss it? Because it is BH that posted it?

Is there something wrong with BH that you can not accept her thoughts and opinions?

Is there something different about her that makes you disregard her posts??

Semper



posted on Sep, 20 2006 @ 06:05 PM
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this constant sniping is getting wearisome. There was no insincerity in BH's post. It is just that BH dares to disagree with Ceci from time to time. The nerve...



posted on Sep, 20 2006 @ 06:05 PM
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There's no disagreement or sniping on my part. I don't know what you're trying to insinuate. I am expressing my opinions, though. And I think that not enough ground is being covered in order to make an assessment on "reparations" or not.

I accept her opinions, totally. I have no doubt she is being sincere. But, I feel that we are skirting the issue of slavery and why it is important for reparations.

If people truly dug underneath the niceties and sincerity, they would truly get the sense that reparations were actually in order especially if they did tackle the more unsavory aspects of what happened.

But no one wants to go there. If she truly cared, she would have researched all aspects of slavery--even the uglier aspects of it. But I think she skirted the issue, no matter how sincere she is being.

People want to easily be satiated by kind words about "equality". You can talk about "equality" until you are blue in the face. But that does not erase what had happened and how people suffered, if not died.

Perhaps, it is easier to empathize with the suffering of the Holocaust. But no one wants to dig into the history and actually feel bad about what happened with slavery.

To most folk, it just happened. And then, they go back to their daily lives.

That's why I'd save my WATS. The same aspects have been done before. And people write off sentiment too easily as a salve to cover what actually happened during slavery in order to reassure themselves that slavery wasn't as bad as they thought it would be.

That's what I meant before about "deflection" and "avoidance". Both are happening profusely.


[edit on 20-9-2006 by ceci2006]



posted on Sep, 20 2006 @ 06:16 PM
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I've seen the results of the horrors that man can and does perpetrate upon man. I saw a good freind who survived the killing fields suffer through nightmares that would horrify anyone. Yes, Ceci, the fact that you are black does give you some insight into the recieveing end of racism and hatred. Don't for a minute believe that some of us don't have an equally valid insight into it as well. I am personally aquainted with multiple survivors of not only the Cambodian killing fields, but the Nazi deathcamps, and genocides perpetrated in Uganda, and other places in Africa.

No I didn't experiance them personally, but I've seen the scars up close, heard the screams as they've relived them. Spare me the hyperbole of bringing up harsh reality. Seen it, didn't much care for it.



posted on Sep, 20 2006 @ 06:17 PM
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Voices from the days of slavery

These are fascinating! Audio interviews from 1932 to 1975 of slaves. I have 2 windows open and I'm listening in one and reading the transcripts in the other.



posted on Sep, 20 2006 @ 06:18 PM
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Great post, BH!
Unfortunately, I'm out of WATS for the month.

Question for Rasobasi, but of course anyone can respond:

How would you determine who gets the reparations? How would you separate recent immigrants from Haiti,the Bahamas, and other places? What about first-generation Africans?

You gotta admit, it would be next to impossible to identify those with a direct lineage from slaves.



posted on Sep, 20 2006 @ 06:21 PM
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Well, seagull, that means you don't want to truly understand the repercussions of what happened during slavery. And you truly showed the lack of empathy surrounding the issue of reparations. But this is no different from other people. There are others who have the same feelings and sentiment as you do. They would rather skirt the issue and feel good for quieting the call for reparations. It's part of a society who just doesn't care about those who suffered unless it is politically viable to do so.

After all, they gave money to the 9/11 survivors right away. It didn't even take three years to do so.

----------------------------------------------------------------

No it wouldn't be hard to find out the lineage of slaves. There are "separate, but equal" cemeteries across the South that has interred remains of slaves apart from their masters. Plus, there are cemetaries across the country that have the slaves that migrated to the North after the Emancipation Proclamation.

Dig them up and test the DNA all on the government's dime.

And then test the living relatives.

Then, there are some of us that have keepsakes and other paraphenalia from that period. It wouldn't be hard to prove at all. It depends on the sentiment. The sentiment is not there for it to happen.

The comments alone from here prove that no one wants to entertain such a thing. They just want to let themselves off easy and go on.

"I've talked about it," they would say. "I've done my good deed for the month in terms of combatting racism."

Sorry for being the fly in the ointment. But, in every issue there needs to be a little bit of cynicism.


------------------------------------------------------

And BH, that is the first step. All I can say is congratulations. You've done a little more than the rest in trying to understand slavery.




[edit on 20-9-2006 by ceci2006]



posted on Sep, 20 2006 @ 06:35 PM
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Those voices are enlightening aren't they, BH? Slavery is a blot on the soul of all mankind, those who practise it, and those who ignore it.

Ceci, are you listening to yourself? You would desecrate graves just to get an apology based on money?

Just a few questions. Who pays? The african tribes who sold them into slavery in the first place? How about the decendants of the crews of the slave ships? After all both parties benefited from slavery along with American slave owners.



!!!!My 1000th post!!!! I'm sooooo very happy
.

[edit on 20-9-2006 by seagull]



posted on Sep, 20 2006 @ 06:35 PM
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I just found an interesting link. Apparently a lawsuit seeking reparations was tossed out of court as recently as 2004.


Judge dismisses slavery lawsuit (01/27/04)

[Excerpted from the AP story as printed in the Washington Times 01/27/04]

By Mike Robinson
ASSOCIATED PRESS

"CHICAGO -- A federal judge yesterday dismissed a lawsuit brought by descendants of slaves against corporations they contend profited from slavery, saying the plaintiffs had established no clear link to the companies they targeted. ...

" 'Plaintiffs' attempt to bring these claims more than a century after the end of the Civil War and the formal abolition of slavery fails,' U.S. District Judge Charles R. Norgle said.
"He said the plaintiffs' claims 'are beyond the constitutional authority of this court' and that the lawsuit claimed no specific connection between the plaintiffs and the companies named as defendants. ...

Judge dismisses reparations lawsuit


The judge uses some of the same arguments that we have been making.



posted on Sep, 20 2006 @ 06:40 PM
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Because I don't support the notion of reparations to the decendants of slaves, I lack empathy. You certainly didn't think so a while back when I agreed with you. You know whats really funny? On most racial issues I still do agree with you, nasty unwarrented attacks and all.



posted on Sep, 20 2006 @ 06:40 PM
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Originally quoted by seagull
Ceci, are you listening to yourself? You would desecrate graves just to get an apology based on money?


A question was asked about tracing the lineage of the slaves in order to get reparations. I presented an answer: get the DNA.

The authorities exhume bodies all the time in order to get DNA. Why should it be any different?

But no, I wouldn't. I am of the camp that reparations will not happen due to the fact that people are not empathetic about Blacks or the issue to care. They would never be convinced. And litigation would make sure, like the post above, that these matters would not be discussed.

I'm just cynical because people use these things to reassure others that they are not prejudiced all the time. But when it comes down to it, they would rather decimate anything related to slavery so that they would never have to hear of it again. This would be in the name of self-preservation.

They would stomp over the graves of others not to hear about it. You have a hard enough time discussing race as it is without getting into the deeper issues.

And I'm sorry that you feel what I'm saying is nasty. But how I feel about it is what I've said in the past was for: 1)self defense; and 2)saying things as they are instead of niceties.

I've learned hard lessons of going out of my way to be kind to others when they don't treat me with the same respect and "equality". This issue especially commands it.


[edit on 20-9-2006 by ceci2006]



posted on Sep, 20 2006 @ 06:49 PM
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When have I implied that I wanted the issue of slavery and its lingering effects to go away? Because I disagree with the notion of reparations? What deeper issues of race would you care to discuss? If I am at all knowlegeable I'll be more than happy to discuss it with you, and whoever else wants to join in. If I don't know anything about it, I'll keep quiet and attempt to learn. We are all here to deny ignorance, after all.

My temper is growing abit uncertain now, so I'll leave and pick up tommorrow after I get home from work.



posted on Sep, 20 2006 @ 06:51 PM
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That's fine. No one needs to leave feeling angry. But of course, all I want is that when people discuss things, they have to challenge themselves to really delve into the issues instead of just skimming the surface.

I think in all the talk about reparations, no one has ever researched why people might call for reparations. They only wanted to seek out answers against it.

And that makes it an one-sided conversation.



posted on Sep, 20 2006 @ 07:02 PM
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Originally posted by seagull
Those voices are enlightening aren't they, BH?


Yes, they're beautiful. What I'm finding interesting is that all of the ones I've listened to so far have said that their white people were "real good to them". They speak with genuine respect about the people who owned them... Amazing.

I know many slaves were mistreated, by white masters as well as black masters . They were whipped and abused. But it's nice to learn that that isn't necessarily a given.

Congratulations on your 1000th post!!



posted on Sep, 20 2006 @ 07:14 PM
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In other words, that's what I mean by the false usage of "equality". To equate the wrongdoing of others in order to dismiss an issue that means so much to a lot people and bury it behind niceties.

Equality does not mean just showing up the "black"side of things just to say that slavery was practiced by everyone. Although it is deplorable that there were Black slave masters, but until there is more information about them to compare the nastiness of the treatment to the White slave masters, there is more to be said. And a lot more to be researched.

I would especially ask for others to consider the way that this was brought up.

Furthermore, there is always the notion that the "oppressed" become the "oppressors" of the "oppressed". That means that some willingly side with the dominant culture in order to negate their own hertitage and put down their own people in order for a pat on the head from those on the top rung of the social hierarchy. They transgress their own culture in order to be "accepted" in the culture of another.

Cynically, it happened then and it happens now.



[edit on 20-9-2006 by ceci2006]



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