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Slavery is a racial issue because there are still divisions in the treatment, legalization and enforcement of it by race.
That is what you have to sort out. Then, these matters and their historical examination can be truly discussed. It would be fair to see how each type of slave was "shipped", whether some slaves were used for "breeding", the type of punishment used, the type of housing and conditions were used and how slaves were restricted from civic and social society.
Sure there were prejudices of many sorts in terms of classism, but you have to measure the inequality in how these matters were dealt.
Which slave was dealt with the least equality? Which slave was treated with the most contempt by society?
“One of the things that both the public and many scholars have tended to take as given is that slavery was always racial in nature – that only blacks have been slaves. But that is not true,” Davis said. “We cannot think of slavery as something that only white people did to black people.”
During the time period Davis studied, it was religion and ethnicity, as much as race, that determined who became slaves.researchnews.osu.edu...
White slaves transported to the colonies suffered a staggering loss of life in the 17th and 18th century. During the voyage to America it was customary to keep the White slaves below deck for the entire nine to twelve week journey. A White slave would be confined to a hole not more than sixteen feet long, chained with 50 other men to a board, with padlocked collars around their necks. The weeks of confinement below deck in the ship's stifling hold often resulted in outbreaks of contagious disease which would sweep through the "cargo" of White "freight" chained in the bowels of the ship.
Ships carrying White slaves to America often lost half their slaves to death. According to historian Sharon V. Salinger, "Scattered data reveal that the mortality for [White] servants at certain times equaled that for [Black] slaves in the 'middle passage,' and during other periods actually exceeded the death rate for [Black] slaves." Salinger reports a death rate of ten to twenty percent over the entire 18th century for Black slaves on board ships enroute to America compared with a death rate of 25% for White slaves enroute to America.
Finally, Talty should know that "Negro blood" by itself did not confine anyone to slavery. If the maternal descent line was from a white female or had been broken by manumission, the descendants were free. Southern white people could legally have more Negro ancestry than some unfortunate slaves because the definition of "white" usually allowed between one-fourth and one-eighth "negro blood" in a free person of otherwise European ancestry. Many people moved from "free colored" or "mulatto" to "white" with no "Imitation of Life" secrecy involved. The children of the infamous Sally Hemings/Thomas Jefferson union would have been legally "white" once manumitted. For more information on this issue, please see my review of "The Forgotten Cause of the Civilarchive.salon.com...
The Englishman William Eddis, after observing White slaves in America in the 1770s wrote: "Generally speaking, they groan beneath a worse than Egyptian bondage." Governor Sharpe of the Maryland colony compared the property interest of the planters in their White slaves, with the estate of an English farmer consisting of a "Multitude of Cattle."
According to Thomas Burton's Parliamentary Diary 1656-1659, in 1659 the English parliament debated the practice of selling British Whites into slavery in the New World. In the debate, these Whites were referred to not as "indentured servants" but as "slaves."
Cromwell, in the middle of the sixteenth century, shipped some thousands of Irish women and children to the Barbadoes to be sold as slaves. Forced by their owners to mate with the others these unfortunates were succeeded by a few generations of Irish-speaking negroes and mulattos. And it is commonly asserted to this day the natives of Barbadoes speak with an Irish brogue.
Although African Negroes were better suited to work in the semi-tropical climates of the Caribbean, they had to be purchased, while the Irish were free for the catching, so to speak. It is not surprising that Ireland became the biggest source of livestock for the English slave trade.
There are records of Irish sold as slaves in 1664 to the French on St. Bartholomew, and English ships which made a stop in Ireland enroute to the Americas, typically had a cargo of Irish to sell on into the 18th century.
Few people today realize that from 1600 to 1699, far more Irish were sold as slaves than Africans.
The planters quickly began breeding the comely Irish women, not just because they were attractive, but because it was profitable,,, as well as pleasurable. Children of slaves were themselves slaves, and although an Irish woman may become free, her children were not
The treatment of White slaves exactly paralleled that of enchained Africans. Irish slaves were transported to the colonies of British America and Barbados, packed tightly together like freight cargo, in cramped and unsanitary conditions. Often as many as half of these unwilling White prisoners died en route to the Caribbean, a fact that mattered little to the rulers, which sought primarily to remove them from conquered Irish Catholic lands that had been marked for imperial Protestant colonization and settlement [by White Protestant dissidents themselves ethnically cleansed from their ancestral lands -- Ed].
Upon arrival, those who survived were physically graded and auctioned like livestock upon the slave markets in Barbados. Any that resisted were subjected to severe lashings and other corporal punishments. They were branded on the forehead or buttocks as the property of the plantation owners who purchased them as slaves for life. Indeed, even their children were born into hereditary slavery. Irish women and children suffered extreme degradation on the human flesh markets and were commonly sold into unwilling sexual service. www.nationalvanguard.org...
Originally posted by semperfortis
If you want to discuss racism, fine, even the subjugation of the African Race. Yet, Slavery is NOT a racial issue. Not if your going to discuss it intellectually and completely.
I just think that the two MUST be separated if any logical discourse is to follow.
Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
If they think Mel Gibson is Anti-Semitic, yet think Tony Snow was just using a figure of speech, they must be against black people and so therefore are part of the Dominant Culture.
I can't say on this board what I think about your line of logic, HH. Suffice it to say that I disagree.
And Harlem Hottie and Saphronia, I’m sorry to point this out, but it seems that neither of you are willing to even suggest that Ceci has been out of line in her attacks against my character. Does that mean you agree with her? You certainly have plenty to say in support of her, and you don’t hesitate to set the white people straight when they strike back at her (in defense of your race, of course), but when Ceci makes these spiteful attacks against my character in public, you are strangely and sadly silent. I can’t help but think that this choice of yours serves not to improve race relations, but to cement the divide between the races...Please rest in the knowledge that if anyone attacked one of you – one my friends’ character, I would powerfully defend you, regardless the color of the attacker.
Originally posted by FlyersFan
No. My issue with reparations is not 'now' about taxes. We were talking about who would PAY reparations. You said the government. That means our taxes. I pay taxes. Therefore .... it's still my money.
There is no 'historic wrong' to be righted.
No one alive had anything to do with it. Nor did their parents. Nor their grandparents.
upon successful lynching of a black farmer or immigrant merchant, the land would be available and the market opened for white Americans...The most prevalent accusation was murder or attempted murder, followed by a list of infractions that included verbal and physical aggression, spirited business competition and independence of mind.
How about you read them now?
I THINK WE AGREE at least that the money we are sending overseas should stop being sent over there and should be spent here at home....Cut that 6 billion $$$ that Bush said we are giving Africa for AIDS research.
If you want more programs, programs that all americans could participate in, then I'd be open to that. But don't label them 'reparations'. That term is a fallicy IMHO.
In the end it is up to the individual. The person can use the programs that are available or they can not. I found the US Army and went to work in the military while at the same time getting my college for free. I found a way.
Since we are chatting HH .. I have a question or two
As for 'recrimination,' the only recrimination going on around this topic applies to the whites who cry reverse-discrimination.
I have never understood black on black crime. Considering the difficulties that are sometimes inherited by those of the black community; WHY is black on black crime so high?? Do you know? It's a complete mystery to me why some black people, who call each other brother and sister, many times go on to destroy the lives of their fellow black Americans. And why do black people call themselves 'African Americans' when it was their fellow Africans who sold them to slavers to begin with?? I would think that if anything black people wouldn't be too happy about their ancestors being mistreated and enslaved by Africans like that. They were, and yet their great-great-great- grandchildren hold Africa in such high regard.
Originally posted by Saphronia
We call each other brother and sister because of slavery which ripped families apart. Some black people don't even know that's why. To ask an ill educated starving person to feel some since of community is a tall order. Some get knocked for drug crimes at the age of 13 they become a felon. Once you are a felon there is nothing left for you but crime. You can't get a grant or a loan. You can't even get a job at Mc Donalds unless you lie on the application. What we have now is steady release of American blacks from the pen that can do nothing but crime to survive. They have no education and even if they got one in jail the chances of them getting a job is slim to nill. This is just the reality. To do crime to survive is a choice that many people make of all colors. To call crime black on black or to look down on a black person for killing another black as opposed to just doing the killing would be racist, in my opinion.
The study of why people commit crime is important, not only as a field of behavioural research, but as a source of data for constructing public policy models in response to criminal behaviour. Greater understanding of why people commit criminal offences enables policy makers and the general public to make better decisions about the criminal justice system.www.sasked.gov.sk.ca...
Why do people commit crime?
People commit crimes for many reasons. Maybe they are poor and commit crime to get food, clothes etc. they cannot afford. Maybe they are unemployed and bored or rich and bored. Vandalism and drug related crimes are sometimes committed to provide excitement. Usually someone begins by committing a "small offence" which is unpunished. The criminal then commits bigger offences. Crime can become a habit or a way of life. There is no one answer as to why people commit crime.