What can we do to address race-relations and solve racism?

Originally posted by ceci2006
You created the climate. Not me.

You are saying that to BH and you actually believe it? Talk about denial. Glass houses Ceci .. glass houses.

END OF THREAD FINALLY IN SIGHT - thank God

At this point, that's up to the mods.

But unfortunately, that isn't up to you.

Reparations, anyone?

[edit on 21-9-2006 by ceci2006]

Originally posted by ceci2006
But unfortunately, that isn't up to you.

I AGREE! UNFORTUNATELY it isn't up to me .. or I would have canned this self-serving rant of a mess back when it was on the second page. The writing was on the wall ... in BIG BOLD letters ... spraypainted on the wall by YOU.

BH has been the most patient person I have ever seen online. EVER. Your attacks on her (and everyone else who didn't fully agree with you) are what 'caused the climate'.

END OF THREAD

[edit on 9/21/2006 by FlyersFan]

Sure, I'll take some of that reparation money.
If it ever starts getting handed out, my hand will be out too!
I deserve it. My ancestors on my fathers side were nearly wiped out.
How much do I deserve?

Actually, to tell you the truth, I would just rather have an apology to atone for the past. I agree with Saph on this one. Her post made the most sense when trying to deal with this issue. And, of course, I still believe that not all the money in the world could pay for the suffering of Blacks in America. The lack of empathy alone will not make it happen.

In fact, reparations should not be the terminology used. I prefer restitution. Restitution has an aura of giving one the sense of apology and actually meaning it.



[edit on 21-9-2006 by ceci2006]

We created the climate? Which thread are you on anyway? You are the one who begins the mudslinging, not us, most especially BH.

Whatever. The work goes on. Right now, I am trying to stay on topic. I hope that others will do the same.

This is an article that actually supports the reparations movement. It's from an author who is from Tulane Law:

"Many Billions Gone: Is It Time to Reconsider the Case for Black Reparations?"

Compensation to Blacks for the injustices suffered by them must first and foremost be monetary. It must be sufficient to indicate that the United States truly wishes to make Blacks whole for the losses they have endured. Sufficient, in other words, to reflect not only the extent of unjust Black suffering, but also the need for Black economic independence from societal discrimination. No less than with the freedmen, freedom for Black people today means economic freedom and security. A basis for that freedom and security can be assured through group reparations in the form of monetary compensation, along with free provision of goods and services to Black communities across the nation. The guiding principle of reparations must be self-determination in every sphere of life in which Blacks are currently dependent.

To this end, a private trust should be established for the benefit of all Black Americans. The trust should be administered by trustees popularly elected by the intended beneficiaries of the trust. The trust should be financed by funds drawn annually from the general revenue of the United States for a period not to exceed ten years. The trust funds should be expendable on any project or pursuit aimed at the educational and economic empowerment of the trust beneficiaries to be determined on the basis of need. Any trust beneficiary should have the right to submit proposals to the trustees for the expenditure of trust funds.

This is a second article in support of the reparations movement.

"If the Shoe Fits, Wear It:An Analysis of Reparations to African Americans"


Compensation to Blacks for the injustices suffered by them must first and foremost be monetary. It must be sufficient to indicate that the United States truly wishes to make Blacks whole for the losses they have endured. Sufficient, in other words, to reflect not only the extent of unjust Black suffering, but also the need for Black economic independence from societal discrimination. No less than with the freedmen, freedom for Black people today means economic freedom and security. A basis for that freedom and security can be assured through group reparations in the form of monetary compensation, along with free provision of goods and services to Black communities across the nation. The guiding principle of reparations must be self-determination in every sphere of life in which Blacks are currently dependent.

To this end, a private trust should be established for the benefit of all Black Americans. The trust should be administered by trustees popularly elected by the intended beneficiaries of the trust. The trust should be financed by funds drawn annually from the general revenue of the United States for a period not to exceed ten years. The trust funds should be expendable on any project or pursuit aimed at the educational and economic empowerment of the trust beneficiaries to be determined on the basis of need. Any trust beneficiary should have the right to submit proposals to the trustees for the expenditure of trust funds.

[edit on 21-9-2006 by ceci2006]

What would a good apology look like?
And who should it come from?
How would you know it was sincere, especially if it were a "forced apology"?

Wouldn't you prefer cash? even a token (excuse the expression) amount?

Actually, the articles above explain some solutions about what to do with the "restitution". For myself, it is something that I haven't truly thought about because in this climate after 9/11 I think it won't happen.

In fact, I would want the country to make a very generous apology first. And I would want an honest delving into the history of race relations. It is here where I also agree with Saph. I think if the government had the guts to tell it like it is, the climate would not be as bad as it is today.

[edit on 21-9-2006 by ceci2006]

Is that a polite way of telling black Americans to get over it?

The US can play world policeman when we deal with our own skeletons.

No it is not.

And let me just get one thing straight, I will not be dragged into the same gutter that most of this thread, that had a wonderful ideological start, has fallen into.

What that was, was information. Pure and simple.

It was meant to convey the sentiment that it expressed. If you actually believe that the "Skeletons" ie Reparations, are more important than other humans around the world living in slavery, that is your personal choice. Yet what about the Homeless? How about the thousands that die of malnutrition here in the U.S.? Are reparations more important that them?

If your going to pay reparations, are you going to pay the Irish?

Subsequently some 52,000 Irish, mostly women and sturdy boys and girls, were sold to Barbados and Virginia alone. Another 30,000 Irish men and women were taken prisoners and ordered transported and sold as slaves. In 1656, Cromwell’s Council of State ordered that 1000 Irish girls and 1000 Irish boys be rounded up and taken to Jamaica to be sold as slaves to English planters. As horrendous as these numbers sound, it only reflects a small part of the evil program, as most of the slaving activity was not recorded. There were no tears shed amongst the Irish when Cromwell died in 1660.www.raceandhistory.com...

However, from 1625 onward the Irish were sold, pure and simple as slaves. There were no indenture agreements, no protection, no choice. They were captured and originally turned over to shippers to be sold for their profit. Because the profits were so great, generally 900 pounds of cotton for a slave, the Irish slave trade became an industry in which everyone involved (except the Irish) had a share of the profits.

The planters quickly began breeding the comely Irish women, not just because they were attractive, but because it was profitable,,, as well as pleasurable. Children of slaves were themselves slaves, and although an Irish woman may become free, her children were not.

There are records of Irish sold as slaves in 1664 to the French on St. Bartholomew, and English ships which made a stop in Ireland enroute to the Americas, typically had a cargo of Irish to sell on into the 18th century.
Few people today realize that from 1600 to 1699, far more Irish were sold as slaves than Africans.

No one. NOT ONE race has been free from the terrible yoke of slavery. All you have to do is look far enough back and you will find factual evidence of slavery in all of it's many faces being exerted on every race, creed, ethnic group, religion etc.

Are you going to pay all of them?

Semper

This is yet one more article about the reparations movement. This might help shed light on some of the issues here at stake:

Blacks worth $6k; whites $88k

Wealth is a measure of cumulative advantage or disadvantage. It is an abundance of items of economic value, or controlling or possessing such items, and encompasses money, real estate and personal property. Wealth is a state that eludes the majority of blacks.

The median net worth of today's Black household is $6,000. The net worth of a white household is $88,000 -- fourteen times the wealth.

The fact that Black wealth is a fraction of white wealth represents the nation's long history of discrimination. While America's racial structures continue wealth disparities, whites remain implacably opposed to engaging in discussions of reparations, while continuing to profit from inherited gifts from the legacy of slavery.
[...]

Four million Africans, and their descendants, were enslaved in the U.S. and its colonies from 1619 to 1865. As a result, the U.S. was able to begin progress toward becoming the world's most prosperous country. Calculations of the sum total of the worth of all the Black labor stolen through means of slavery, segregation, and contemporary discrimination range from $5 to $24 trillion.

Thank you, Semper. You are the true gentleman.



[edit on 21-9-2006 by ceci2006]

Question to the members: do you know of anyone who wants to be a member of another race? Michael Jackson comes to mind - all of the cosmetic surgery he has undergone shows it.

But others - do you know any? What form does it take? Obsequiousness? Fawning? Speech? Anger?

And finally, why do you think they want to be another race?

Maybe if we understand that, we can begin to understand what they see that is so attractive to them but escapes us.

This is orginally a book review, but it discusses the need for reparations. This is probably a telling part in terms of comparing the reparations given to Japanese Americans and the push for reparations for African-Americans:

The Case for Reparations

Henry Hyde echoes a common but confused sentiment. If personal liability for slavery or past racial oppression were being imputed to him, then the Congressman’s response would be appropriate. He denies personal responsibility for the wrongs to be made good. But personal responsibility and liability are not at stake. The real issues are corporate responsibility – the responsibility of the nation as a whole – and civic responsibility – the responsibility of each citizen to do his fair part in honoring the nation’s obligations. When Congress passed the Civil Liberties Act of 1988, no one assumed that individual Americans were being held accountable for personal wrongdoing.

The interning of Japanese Americans was an act of the United States government and its agents. At the time, the government acted for putatively good reasons. Following the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor, American officials were concerned about the security of the West Coast from similar attack or sabotage. Whether the government actually acted for honorable motives or not, the point remains that with the passage of time thoughtful Americans – and the government itself – have come to view the internment as an unjustified response to the war with Japan, and one that wronged its victims.

The Civil Liberties Act, and the token reparations it paid ($20,000 to each interned Japanese American or to his or her surviving spouse or children), represented an official apology and a small step toward making whole the material losses incurred by the internees. The reparations were appropriated out of general revenues. Consequently, Henry Hyde, as taxpayer, contributed a small portion, not because he had any personal responsibility for the internment but because as a citizen he is required to bear his share of the government’s necessary expenditures.

[edit on 21-9-2006 by ceci2006]

The Case for Reparations

Henry Hyde echoes a common but confused sentiment. If personal liability for slavery or past racial oppression were being imputed to him, then the Congressman’s response would be appropriate. He denies personal responsibility for the wrongs to be made good. But personal responsibility and liability are not at stake. The real issues are corporate responsibility – the responsibility of the nation as a whole – and civic responsibility – the responsibility of each citizen to do his fair part in honoring the nation’s obligations.

I have already cited a court case where an attempt to make corporations pay up was dismissed by a federal judge.

It's a slick maneuver, however; to go after the faceless evil corporation with the deep pockets. It ignores the fact, however, that corp.s are owned by stockholders, and any rise in costs are ultimately borne by the consumer in the form of higher prices. It also assumes guilt.

Jesse Jackson, however has his own variation on this game of strongarming the corporations.

The Civil Liberties Act, and the token reparations it paid ($20,000 to each interned Japanese American or to his or her surviving spouse or children), represented an official apology and a small step toward making whole the material losses incurred by the internees. The reparations were appropriated out of general revenues.

Show me the spouse or child of a slave and I'll kick in to pay his property tax bill for 1 session. But at some point, the umbilical cord has to be cut.

A little more information on who may be eligible for reparations...

Up to one-half of all the arrivals in the American colonies were Whites slaves and they were America's first slaves. These Whites were slaves for life, long before Blacks ever were. This slavery was even hereditary. White children born to White slaves were enslaved too.

The Establishment has created the misnomer of "indentured servitude" to explain away and minimize the fact of White slavery. But bound Whites in early America called themselves slaves. Nine-tenths of the White slavery in America was conducted without indentures of any kind but according to the so-called "custom of the country," as it was known, which was lifetime slavery administered by the White slave merchants themselves.

In George Sandys laws for Virginia, Whites were enslaved "forever." The service of Whites bound to Berkeley's Hundred was deemed "perpetual." These accounts have been policed out of the much touted "standard reference works" such as Abbott Emerson Smith's laughable whitewash, Colonists in Bondage.

I challenge any researcher to study 17th century colonial America, sifting the documents, the jargon and the statutes on both sides of the Atlantic and one will discover that White slavery was a far more extensive operation than Black enslavement. It is when we come to the 18th century that one begins to encounter more "servitude" on the basis of a contract of indenture. But even in that period there was kidnapping of Anglo-Saxons into slavery as well as convict slavery.

The chronicle of White slavery in America comprises the dustiest shelf in the darkest corner of suppressed American history. Should the truth about that epoch ever emerge into the public consciousness of Americans, the whole basis for the swindle of "Affirmative action," "minority set-asides" and proposed "Reparations to African-Americans" will be swept away. The fact is, the White working people of this country owe no one. They are themselves the descendants, as Congressman Wilmot so aptly said, of "the sons of toil."
www.revisionisthistory.org...

Now these liberal lies are easily countered by facts. The primary fact that must be emphasized is that many hundreds of thousands of White people were slaves in early America. In fact, White slavery was not only extremely common, but until the late 18th century it was far more common than Black slavery here. Also little known is the fact that living and labor conditions for Black slaves, bad as they often were, were usually far better than those for White slaves.
At this point, many of you are probably saying "White slaves? What in the world is he talking about? Sure, there were White indentured servants and apprentices in colonial America, and maybe sometimes they were treated badly, but actual White slavery - that's something that disappeared with the Romans and the Vikings. And to compare White indentured servants to Black slaves is the worst sort of racist distortion of history!"
Some of you are probably saying or thinking exactly that, and quite frankly to most of us the idea of White slavery in early America is hard to accept, schooled as we are by the controlled media and the liberal-dominated public schools. But researcher and writer Michael Hoffman has recently come out with one of the most earth-shaking works of historical research in the last decade, entitled They Were White and They Were Slaves. This program is based on Mr. Hoffman's original research into documents long hidden from the public eye and revealing a very different America from that presented in the controlled media.
www.crusader.net...

There is a TON of research out there on this. Eye opening is to say the least.

Semper

Cases can always be retried. Just like the CCR filed and refiled their cases against the government in the name of the Gitmo prisoners, hopefully, there will be those who will file and refile on this matter on various grounds to get some accountability for past crimes committed to a part of the citzenry.

I hope that there is a legal team clever enough to use the system to make a positive ruling next time, because it is a compelling case in which the government is very much at fault. So are the citizens for collaborating and participating with the government in following the laws of Segregation. And of course, not to mention all of those who have willingly participated in acts that restricted the rights of those during Jim Crow and the Civil Rights Era.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


It's time to re-frame the argument and throw in some new issues to add to the plate because this subject matter needs to be taken deeper as we discuss more and more parts of the issue.

We need to take this thought beyond the issue of money. What about the issue of atonement? Saphronia posed a very good idea when this country has to learn more about these issues in order to atone for the crimes of the past.

I think the issue of atonement is an important one and very compelling. Since it is very hard for some Americans to come to grips of what had happened in the past fifty years, let alone slavery, should there be some way that the country can help break down the lack of empathy regarding this issue?

I think there should. But would it be done during this present Administration? No. After all, they have problems with the civil liberties of everyone to worry about the Civil Rights Era until it is politically viable (i.e. Hurricane Katrina, Mr. Bush's visit to the NAACP).



[edit on 21-9-2006 by ceci2006]

Semper

Very good references on white slavery. I had heard of indentured slaves, but never knew the full extent of white slavery.

Should they be considered for reparations?

I think that if ceci's intention is true to the thread title, then fairness MUST be the main priority. If it is not, and this is dismissed, then this thread would be exposed as a one sided attempt and therefor racist in it's nature.

Fairness would imply that ALL descendants of ANYONE held in slavery would be eligible for any Reparations, Atonement or apology.

If it is equality that we want, then ALL must be equal.

We have to consider the Chinese that were enslaved to the rail companies, the Irish, Africans, American Indians etc.

Also, what would be the deciding factor on purity of the Race? I have an African American in my heritage as well as a Sioux. Am I eligible for anything? If not, why?

Semper

The thread focuses on all types of racism from any race. And also it is discussing the issues of making race-relations better. Indeed that is what we are discussing here. I had said from the start that no one race would be the focus of this thread.

Despite what others might thing, the principles are still held with the utmost truth.

So, Semper is right. And he has a legitimate right to discuss his views on slavery in terms of revisionist history.

And if he is bringing that up in terms of reparations, that creates an entirely new spin on it.

With his take on reparations, that means a whole lot of people in this country would have to "get a job". And some would have to restrict that hard earned money to themselves. And some would have to use that same lack of empathy to tell themselves, to "Get a job".

And then, some would have to deal with the "sins of their own fathers". They might have to retreat into self-blame.

It's funny about money. When it is to a group that is undesirable to the dominant culture, all sorts of social stigmas are attached to them to avoid entertaining the possibility of getting cash reparations.

But when one discovers that they might be part of the affected group, then they change their tune real quickly.

Amazing.



[edit on 21-9-2006 by ceci2006]

Thank You ceci.

historical revisionism (negationism)

Historical revisionism is the attempt to change commonly held ideas about the past. In its legitimate form (see historical revisionism) it is the reexamination of historical facts, with an eye towards updating historical narratives with newly discovered, more accurate, or less biased information, acknowledging that history of an event, as it has been traditionally told, may not be entirely accurate.
www.answers.com...

I just think this issue is far more complicated than what it has boiled down to on here. Basically there have been two sides that have taken up position on opposite ends of the spectrum and sniped at each other.

BH attempted to begin calmly posting, and was almost ignored while the others continued sniping.

If you want to discuss racism, fine, even the subjugation of the African Race. Yet, Slavery is NOT a racial issue. Not if your going to discuss it intellectually and completely.

I just think that the two MUST be separated if any logical discourse is to follow.

Semper