What can we do to address race-relations and solve racism?

Originally posted by jsobecky
"I have a right to be mad!". The problem is that that inevitably leads to a lack of accountability for one's actions, ...

But the above quote brings up one more example of Black Privilege - the immunity from responsibility.

We have even seen an example of that, to a lesser degree, here on ATS.

You have voted jsobecky for the Way Above Top Secret award.
You have one more vote left for this month.

Self responsibility. Excellent. Someone wants money?? Get a job and earn it instead of sitting on a computer yapping all day. Don't whine because grandpappy had to pay a poll tax and use that as an excuse for a handout. This is 2006 (NOT Jim Crowe times and NOT slavery times) and the newspaper lists jobs available for those who wish to earn a living. Welcome to the year 2006. Self accountability for ones OWN actions and state of life ... it's called reality. Earn a living instead of being lazy by picking the pockets of people who actually work for their money.

Black privilege - Fear of those in charge of _______ (fill in the blank) being called racist because they have to discipline someone who happens to be black. Therefore the person who happens to be black gets away with more crap than people who are non-black and who don't cause problems. Yes it happens.


Self responsibility ... definately a WATS statement.


[edit on 9/1/2006 by FlyersFan]

Harold Ford Jr.
www.fordfortennessee.com...

Here's a fella I REALLY like. I don't agree with all his policies but he is definately a person who is making positive changes in this country and, perhaps in the future, will be making positive changes in the world.

A fantastic role model. A good man. A firm but open minded leader.
As I said, i don't agree with all his policies, but he is very good for this country.


Cardinal Arinze
en.wikipedia.org...

Another fella' I really like. He isn't American, but if he is elected pope someday he will definately have influence in this country. During the last papal elections we had high hopes he would be elected. However, the Holy Spirit decided otherwise and picked Ratzinger. Cardinal Arinze is an amazing man. His life story is incredible. We had the honor of meeting this holy man on the day our daughter became an American citizen. We met him in Alabama and I have a (cherished) picture of him with my daughter. She's about a year and a half old and he's holding her.

Ratzinger (sorry, I have a hard time remembering to call him Pope Benedict) is old and has himself said that his reign as pope won't be long. We still hope Cardinal Arinze will be named pope ... perhaps after Ratzinger.

Cardinal Arinze, as Harold Ford Jr, is a good man. He's a good roll model and a firm but open minded leader. I hope that the Holy Spirit moves the hearts of the Cardinals to vote for him in the next papal election. He did receive votes last time. It is a definate possibility for him to be elected.


www.whitehouse.gov...
Dr. Condi Rice

My daughter did a report on her for Social Studies. An amazing woman and an incredible life story. She definately is a great role model and an example of taking responsibility for herself and working hard to make her way in the world. She's good for this country and good for the youth of this country to learn her life story and to look up to.

In her biographies she talks about the loss of her friend in the Birmingham church bombing and how she decided to work 'twice as hard' as everyone else to be sure to 'make it'.


www.vote-smart.org...
Sen Obama

Another wonderful role model. Another amazing story. Have ya'll read his book yet? Abandoned by his black father; raised by his white mother and grandmother; what he had to deal with and where he is now .... wow! I don't agree with all his policies and politics, but his is a wonderful story of self responsibility and his book is one that should be on required reading lists in high schools. Only problem here - he still longs for the absent (black) father and doesn't give enough credit to the hard working (white) mother ... not acknowledging some psychological/race issues of why he identifies with the absent black part of his parentage instead of the present white part .... but otherwise the book is great.

( Hey .. I was a psych major ... I couldn't help but see it! )

Secretary Powell
www.whitehouse.gov...

Another excellent role model for self responsibility. This is a short biography but if ya'll ever have a chance to read a longer version of his life story you won't be disappointed. He's a good man. A good role model and he's good for this country. He was also good for the world ... in his job as Secretary of State he touched many other countries and therefore many other lives.


Cesar Chavez
www.galegroup.com...

Self responsibility motivated Chavez. His determination and tireless efforts to improve the lives of his fellow hispanics is admirable. In his early life he dedicated himself to change through peace following Gahndi's approach. Later??? Well, there are rumors about he and Haffa and the mob ....

The sad thing about the role models of the hispanic community is that many of the best known ones are in television or sports. That is all well and good, but the vast majority of nationally known role models for the hispanic community are not in positions to make changes for the better. The former mayor of San Antonio was humming along ... but Cisneros really stepped in it ... bummer!

www.galegroup.com...

France Anne Cordova stands out ... but her story isn't well told. It should be!
www.galegroup.com...

Linda Chavez-Thompson
www.galegroup.com...
Self responsibility. Excellent role model.

Astronaut Ellen Ochoa
www.galegroup.com...
Self responsibiltiy. Awesome inspiration for children in single parent households, hispanic households, and stay at home moms who need a 'you can do it too' push.


Dr. Huynh P. Duong
sap-vn.org...
Never heard of him? He took responsibility for his own life and is an AWESOME role model. Not just for Asian-Americans but for all of us. An incredible life story. A good man. No anger about what was dealt to him ... a man full of LOVE and hope. He is a great example of self responsibility and he is an inspiration for us all.

'My Asian-American heroines' - great reading!
www.imdiversity.com...

My personal asian-american heroine is Sr. Gabrielle. She doens't call herself Asian-American. She simply says she's an American. She escaped from Vietnam during the war with her family in a boat. Her family divided up into three boats in the night and tried to to escape the communists. One boat got caught (and the occupants most likely were tortured and killed); one other boat got hit by fire and blew up; and her boat managed to escape. She came here with those memories and with a few family members and her faith. Nothing else. She is now a humble and holy cloistered nun in Alabama. She's a wonderful person. A holy person. A great role model for not just Asian-Americans but all of us and she's an example of personal responsibility.


My personal hispanic-american hero recently passed away. You never heard of her. Else was a wonderful and caring woman. She and her family escaped from Bolivia when the communists took over about 50 years ago. They were wealthy people in Bolivia and came here with nothing. She and her husband worked hard and took good care of their children. They arrived with nothing except themselves and their faith in God. They managed to raise four children here and assimulate into America while not losing their heritage. Else's daughter is my best friend. She and her sisters and brother have taken responsibility for themselves; gone to school; worked hard; and themselves raised children who are responsible and caring. All this can be traced back to Else and her husband and their determination and self responsibility when they escaped to come here with nothing. I love her and I miss her. An amazing woman!!



[edit on 9/1/2006 by FlyersFan]

Originally posted by ceci2006
The post above does show "immunity from responsibility" very well. For once, jsobecky and myself agree.

Bah! We probably agree on a lot of things. But all that changed. I'll say more on that later.

But don't forget--"immunity from responsibility" is an equal opportunity thing. White people aren't removed from being irresponsible. But because of it, they hardly get their wrists slapped.

Here’s a classic example of where you go wrong. There is absolutely no truth to the statement of white’s usually receiving a wrist slap. But you make statements like this, and then try to build upon a faulty premise.

Just think what happened with the "racial profiling" business with Muslim individuals.

Another example of logical disconnect. What did happen with racial profiling of Muslims (I assume you mean at airports, etc.)? A lot of outcry and threatened lawsuits, and a muzzle on efforts at better security.

Profiling is a valid technique. I don’t think it’s necessary to point out why. But the problem is, when the word “racial” is inserted into the conversation, it elicits knee-jerk reaction.

A lot of "wrist slapping" occurred there due to white privilege. And then, it gets into a murkier slope when you think about the treatment of victims incarcerated in Gitmo. In fact, our President is trying to pass amendments in order to have government officials recieve "immunity from responsibility" from torture.

Lumping Gitmo and Bush into the discussion only serves to derail the topic, and makes people who are against Gitmo or Bush, but may be against your stand on racism in general, somehow think that you are kindred spirits. Yelling “Racism!”, then “Bush!” or “Gitmo!” in the same breath is a common technique to lump Bush or Gitmo with racism. You could have inserted “Iraq!” or “Israel!” and gotten the same unthinking response.

Originally posted by HarlemHottie

People wanted to more or less say "I have a right to be mad!".

JSO, I need to correct you. The only black posters in this thread, as far as I know, are me and Ceci. The only response I made to your post was to let you know that there are lots of white people in Harlem. In fact, in reference to 'white guilt', I said that I don't think being angry at modern white people, or holding them accountable, for the "sins of the father" is an effective strategy in improving race relations.

I don't want this to be a 'thing,' I just needed to clarify that.

The responses I was referring to were from ceci. Responses such as

And about the Black privilege--why shouldn't our rage be legitimized? The things during Slavery, Jim Crow and the Civil Rights Era were pretty terrible if you think about it. Should African-Americans be rather happy and sing about it instead?

Do you want us to let it slide for the sake of "not feeling anything about it" and letting the lynchers and other intimidators off the hook? Especially if some of them are still alive?

and

That's why there is a legitimate right to feel rage. And that rage is not directed at people, per se. It is toward the system for not doing the things that they should in righting the wrongs of unjustness.

And imagine how infuriated you might be if there were another group of people arguing against that social justice by calling it derogatory names: "quotas", "social handouts", "nonsense" and of course, my favorite, "it doesn't exist".

You can go back and review the entire posts; they are on pp 20 and 21. But they are examples of what I was saying.

More troubling, however, is an accusation that is untrue, but has continually been bandied about here: the notion that "it doesn't exist". Not a single example of that can be produced here, even though it's been asked for.

Earlier I promised that I would return to this topic. galloping hordes has made some points that triggered my response.

Originally quoted by galloping horders
Ceci as I expected from your previous posts I have read and noted your; dare I say; personal attack on me.

Yes, as a matter of fact the person who was promoted had a far lesser score then I but was a woman of color.

Once again you have diverted from the question; so I will attempt to clarify and reask. Is it fair that the individual I was referring received no absolutely no disciplinary action while a white man who cursed in front of another woman was in fact disciplined and lost pay for 6 months; how is this fair treatment? What twisted mind can even begin to concieve that it is just?

I regret that from the tone of your posts in this thread you seem to be one of the most bigoted people I've run across in years.

This was the response from ceci

[I]originally posted by ceci2006[/I]
I'm sorry you feel that way. I am a tough debator. I can be gentle when I want. But hard issues deserve hard language. And politeness, diplomacy and kindness does not work in this thread.

My comments:

No, you’re not a tough debater, ceci. You’re an average debater at best, but you oscillate between obsequiousness and vitriol. Making personal attacks and name calling do not make someone a “tough debater”. An even keel, valid, unemotional premises, and a willingness to listen make someone a good debater, not a bipolar reaction that depends on whether you think they agree with you or not.

You seem to have a special animus toward certain members here. You group them together as “your ilk” (go ahead, deny that one) and attempt to tag them with all the undesirable characteristics of a political persuasion. Those that agree with you are labeled as “kind, intelligent, sensitive”, a “thread starter’s dream”.

Your attempts at justification for your words don’t convince anyone. But they remain uncivilized and unchallenged, when the rest of us would not be permitted such latitude.

I remember distinctly the exchange that altered our ATS relationship. Not because it was hurtful; cyber exchanges cannot hurt one, and to hurt me, I'd have to care about someone, but because your comments were so weird, so odd, that they gave me pause to think. And it's been downhill since then.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by jsobecky
The major question I have is, why?

One thing about NWO and screwing with groups of people is that it can shift demographics. With shifting demographics and proper investments people can get wealthy fast. If it exists ...

I don't want to dwell on this topic here, but I hear arguments such as exploitation and oppression around this. I just want you to consider:

Look at what we have as Americans. Everyone who wants a cellphone can have one. The technology has been made so cheap and affordable, that to compete, telcos give away the hardware and sell the services. Sign up for a cellphone, and the phone is free. It may not be the one with all the bells and whistles, but it's a phone.

And with this phone, I can talk to someone on the other side of the world if I want to. Can you imagine the technology behind all of this? The fruits of extremely talented and intelligent human beings put into the hands of the public, some who cannot even begin to conceptualize what goes into making it possible.

I walk into a supermarket. I am overwhelmed with the amount and variety of choices I have. Simply incredible.

The list of material advantages goes on and on.

And, as far as things not material, like my rights, I don't see them as eroded. Plus, I can still defend myself as long as the 2nd Amendment is alive.

You can buy one of these incredibly sophisticated PC's, adequately loaded enough to communicate worldwide, do music or art, etc, for less than $400 brand new.

The point behind all this is that some people get incredibly wealthy and powerful. But I am limited by my own ambition. That's fair to me.

I know this belongs in another thread. Sorry for the tangent.

Well heck, jsobecky. For your cry of attention and your derailing the thread by speaking about my behavior, I might as well give you a WATS too. After all, you pretty much showed everyone that you are the superior debator and the rest of us pale in comparison to you.

Here's hoping you win.

But in the scheme of things, I don't truly care. I will still discuss the things I like. And you are not really that important in influencing me how to post or not. And I'm still indifferent to you because a long time ago you demonstrated to me how you truly are. After being hurt by it, I just decided to just go on and be resilient about it. I still am.

And yes, my comments would be weird to you. Because you refuse to understand anything outside of your tunnel vision. It sails over your head. And all you can do is yelp, fail and destroy what you understand--especially when elevating yourself over others who aren't as "serious thinking" as yourself. Well, it looks like you're playing the "facilitator" yourself.

I don't give a damn how you hijacked this thread. And no, all the posters I praised do not agree with me. You read HH's statement that she hardly agrees with me at all. You fail to read in the small nuances of opinion that make up this thread.

You simply exist. And you just ruin things in a thread like a cancer. And you bring others that make the cancer more virulent. And I truly feel that you are not an open-minded poster. I apologize but you have never been and never will be. You're just selling yourself on "the loner". And you're winning because you are spreading your persona of the "Angry White Male" and parasitically using it as a form of rationality of a problem that is much larger than the concerns of yours and "your ilk".

Why should you be so upset? Nearly all my thread agrees with you. You're chic and the toast of the town. Well heck. You're not uncivilized. But I am. And I'm sure nearly everyone agrees. Mob rule always wins in the end.

So go on ahead. Revel in your triumph. Your cry of attention is heard. Enjoy how others pat you on the back for degrading me.

Yes, you and "your ilk" have taken over and derailed the thread. They'll even buy into that "pity party" story praising some of the "assimilators" by your cohort above.

And now, I don't care. There's other issues to discuss now. And you are not even a blip on the radar of other possibilities. You lecture. I shrug and move on. You are simply not that ubiquitous on this board.

The King is dead. Long Live the King. Just remember. A weary crown always sits on the head of those who rule and command. Enjoy it while it lasts. I'm sure you fully will. I'm rooting for you.






[edit on 1-9-2006 by ceci2006]

To the rest who I care for immensely and thank for your participation:

Now, I truly give a solemn apology to the other posters on this thread. I did not mean to make any more personal remarks. But now, the thread really has legs now. It is all of yours. And I feel that discussions of my character and personality are truly thwarting the conversation from what it can truly be.

So, I wish all of you happiness and peace, kindness and generosity in your search to make this society a better one. I also wish you all love. It has been proven that my participation has been disruptive and I feel I ought to graciously take a true hiatus from the thread.

Few of you will be sorry. And I am all right with that.

I apologize for my comments for they have hurt the more sensitive amongst you. But for the rest, except a few, you have taught me quite a deal about humanity in the face of such derision. I am at peace now after contemplating the weight of these issues.

I truly hope that other posters of color do participate and give their sides of things. And I hope that other posters in general participate in order to make what I started more fruitful. I wish you all luck.

I just hope that you will give others the chance to express themselves fully without applying any stigmas to their character and words. And I praise those especially for keeping their level-headedness in an explosive situation. My heart goes out to you. And now, I bestow the thread to your voices in order for you to be the leaders in expressing your even-temperedness and erudition in terms of this problem.

And I thank you very much for participating. And I will not neglect this problem. I will be working on it in other capacities from now on.

It is a blessing to have started such a compelling thread that a lot of voices have participated in. Now I hope that you all can come to some understanding without any more disruptions or attacks.

It is the best thing. I'm sure the thread will be in capable hands from now on.

Now mind your p's and q's!





[edit on 1-9-2006 by ceci2006]

Originally posted by jsobecky

Originally posted by FlyersFan
One thing about NWO and screwing with groups of people is that it can shift demographics. With shifting demographics and proper investments people can get wealthy fast. If it exists ...

I don't want to dwell on this topic here, but I hear arguments such as exploitation and oppression around this. I just want you to consider:

You are correct. Absolutely. I hadn't looked at it that way. I will definately consider that information and thought process in future NWO discussions.

[edit on 9/1/2006 by FlyersFan]

Originally posted by ceci2006
On this thread, we will keep civil about this issue. We will also deal with this subject matter honestly. No personal attacks or insults will be entertained.

That was page one. So much for discussion of the matter honestly. So much for keeping civil. So much for no personal attacks or insults. (Horse feces coming out of BH's mouth? geeze)

Originally posted by ceci2006
And I don't give a damn how you hijacked this thread.

Good to hear that ... since JSO didn't hijack the thread. He's done a very good job of discussing race issues with facts and truth and HONESTY.

And you just ruin things in a thread like a cancer.

by discussing race and race relations that YOU don't want to discuss - that makes him a "cancer" eh?

Just remember for the future folks .... Honesty = Cancer. The only honesty that's welcome is that which the author approves of.

And you bring others that make the cancer more virulent.

So now people who disagree with you are now 'cancer'. Posting biographies of people 'of color' (Black, Hispanic, Asian) who are positive role models is 'cancer'? Posting facts about people who claim to be civil rights leaders is 'cancer'?

JSO .... you've done a great job. You managed to post facts and truthful information even though you were dodging bizzare verbal attacks all along the way. BH .. Great job staying on topic dispite the personal racist insults directed at you. Your patience is inspirational. Really.

The original question put here was 'what can WE do to address race-relations and solve Racism?'. The answer is that it will be impossible for some people because they are racist through and through .. and even though facts and truth are put in front of them they will refuse to see them because they just don't want to and because it doesn't fit into their racist agenda.

Originally posted by ceci2006
I shrug and move on.

I feel I ought to graciously take a true hiatus from the thread.

Geeeeeze .. how many times have you said that on this thread, and others, then came back - within minutes even? PROMISE to be gone for real this time?



[edit on 9/1/2006 by FlyersFan]

And this from an antagonist who calls people the "one trick pony", "trolls", "social handouts", "Mexican invasion" and "uneducated". It's so funny to comment on the filth coming out of others' mouths but really ignore your own.

But maybe it was wrong to term your presence along with jsobecky's as cancer. But equating cancer with honesty?

That's a stretch, even for you. But what else can we expect as we duck under your long, wooden nose while you swing it at us?

Now, I will answer whenever I like as I read the course of this thread. And my returning to post is not contingent upon whether you say so or not. I will interject during my hiatus when there is a post that really resonates with me. Unfortunately, with few exceptions, the thread on this page has nothing truly fascinating to offer. So, until there is something that does, I won't answer.

Unfortunately, your urging me to "take that hiatus" makes your wooden nose grow a bit longer. It seems Jim Crow ettiquette just goes out the window when responding to you. And if you answer, FF, I don't care.

But it doesn't mean I won't be prepared to duck from that extended piece you tote as you swing it side to side while you go on your diatribes.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------

To the others, I apologize for this last post containing negativity. I will not disrupt the thread again with comments like these. But there are times in which you have to defend yourself against your aggressors. And this is one of those times.

Thank you all for your patience. And good luck with the rest of the discussion. My hope lies with the sensitive people on this thread who will work things out against those who don't have an empathetic bone in their body. It is up to you to pave the way.



[edit on 2-9-2006 by ceci2006]

Originally posted by jsobecky

People wanted to more or less say "I have a right to be mad!".

The responses I was referring to were from ceci.

I know. That's why I felt it was neccesary to say anything at all. "People" is a plural form. If you only meant Ceci, you should have said that. To people who don't want to read the whole thread, it looks like I agreed with her. I have been lumped together with other members of my race. What does that sound like?

More troubling, however, is an accusation that is untrue, but has continually been bandied about here: the notion that "it doesn't exist". Not a single example of that can be produced here, even though it's been asked for.

Of course. People have been careful with their words. However, allow me to point out, the conversation going on right now, between you and FF, about responsibility is about to become one of my examples.

When one person cries whatever -ism, and another person responds with accusations of personal irresponsibility, the implication is that the second person is denying the effects of the -ism in question.

So, in talking about racism, it looks like that second person is a 'denier.'

Please correct me. I would like to be wrong.

Originally posted by jsobecky
Lumping Gitmo and Bush into the discussion only serves to derail the topic...

I know you were talking to Ceci, but this thread has been derailed too many times to start picking people out.

... and makes people who are against Gitmo or Bush, but may be against your stand on racism in general, somehow think that you are kindred spirits.

I could say the same thing to you and replace "Gitmo or Bush" with "irresponsibility." I agree with you that people should be responsible for their own lives, but sometimes, things are out of our control.

That made me think of a general question that I want everyone to answer, if they know: What do poor whites think about their situations? Do they feel like, if they just get off their butts and work really hard, they could 'make it?' Or, do they feel like someone or something is 'keeping them down?'

[edit on 1-9-2006 by HarlemHottie]

Originally posted by HarlemHottie

Originally posted by jsobecky

People wanted to more or less say "I have a right to be mad!".

The responses I was referring to were from ceci.

I know. That's why I felt it was neccesary to say anything at all. "People" is a plural form. If you only meant Ceci, you should have said that. To people who don't want to read the whole thread, it looks like I agreed with her. I have been lumped together with other members of my race. What does that sound like?

I don't know what it sounds like. I don't know the race of every member of this board.

And I used the correct form, because there were more responses to it than just you and ceci.

More troubling, however, is an accusation that is untrue, but has continually been bandied about here: the notion that "it doesn't exist". Not a single example of that can be produced here, even though it's been asked for.

When one person cries whatever -ism, and another person responds with accusations of personal irresponsibility, the implication is that the second person is denying the effects of the -ism in question.

I suppose you (figurative you) could interpret it that way. But there are other interpretations.

For example, donwhite posted about a black man who made a lot of bad personal decisions: he fathered a kid out of wedlock, drank, didn't pay support, missed his court dates, etc. donwhite tried to portray it as a case of racism against the man.

I pointed out that he made some bad decisions. Does that mean I was denying that racism exists? I don't think so.

So, in talking about racism, it looks like that second person is a 'denier.'

To some folks it does. Not to everyone.

Please correct me. I would like to be wrong.

I hope I have convinced you that I am not a racist, and that I believe that it exists to this day, in many shapes and forms.

Originally posted by jsobecky
And I used the correct form, because there were more responses to it than just you and ceci.

At first, I thought you could have been referring to either the second or third group, or both, using my designations. Then I realized that you said,

People wanted to more or less say "I have a right to be mad!".

So, if people said, I have a right to be mad, those people must be black, since you had originally been disussing black privilege. Yes?

In that case, you would have been talking about the black posters who had responded, and I hadn't noticed anybody who had identified themselves as such, aside from me and Ceci. Therefore, when you said people, you were referring, specifically, to me and Ceci.

And, again, I don't feel that way.

I suppose you (figurative you) could interpret it that way. But there are other interpretations...For example, donwhite posted about a black man who made a lot of bad personal decisions.

I agree that the guy in the example had made a lot of bad choices. I haven't made any of them, but racism still adversely affects my life. Does that change your mind?

I hope I have convinced you that I am not a racist...

So you know, I would never call anybody a 'racist.' I don't use it as a noun, but as an adjective, or an adverb.

That was racist.

He acted racist.

I had never really thought about it until now, but, I guess I don't like to categorize people like that, negatively. People have bad days. Just because they behaved in a way that I think is negative, that one day, they don't have to act that way tomorrow. I guess I really believe that people can change.

Thanks for leading me on that little bit of self-discovery.

HH,

Sorry to intercede, but I've been that way too. It's funny how people can throw around all sorts of things to identify others without feeling anything. Yet, they are the first to say that "they aren't racist". And yet, they are the very first to say that others are.

Fascinating. But, one thing I've learned is that despite all the hard treatment I've received on this thread, I am still open to giving others a second chance.

But how many people will really learn how to see past their narrow definitions?

But, it's like I said to gallopinghordes: There are some people out there who will simply flush the Golden Rule down the toilet. And then, they'll go down to the border and build that wall. And then, they'll accuse other races of doing things without thinking that they said it.

The Golden Rule does not mean anything to them.

But, then again, they can say it and chide others over it. Then, they can wag their finger and make others feel as if they've committed one of the most dreadful mistakes of their life.

But they know nothing about forgiveness. And they do not think outside of the box in order to see what was said in a new light.

So, yes, I'd agree that it is one more on the step of self-discovery there.

I'm still rethinking everything that has been said in the thread. And now, I think I'm learning to lessen my frustration and starting to think about what could be that middle ground.

Hey, HH, I said before many times that all of us do not think alike. I wouldn't want all Black people to be in lock-step. I still respect and admire your words and inferences even though we have a difference in agreement. And you do have a lot of courage to continue to speak with such reconciliatory gentleness in your voice. I thank you. And please continue to do this. I will read what you say and learn from your calmness and integrity.

I also want to say that no one wants to be grouped together into one assembly thinking the same thing all the time. But it is always done. So I respect your position.

However, jsobecky has not been entirely clear on my position about this either. I talked about being angry and frustrated at a system that does not change. Since there are some whites who are angry about affirmative action, could one say that they are also angry at the system as well? So why is their anger deemed legitimate and ours (if we are incensed) reflected as "personal irresponsibility"?

Your simple exchange with the other poster indicates that there is a double-standard on who "suffers" and "who is an accepted group in terms of victimology." This is especially so when it comes down to being able to "express anger" about a course of action which is out of our control.

Politicians make decisions every day that are "out of our control". Why is it so hard to understand that there are laws, politics and social ettiquette that do the same thing?

I have said many times on this thread (now reading back upon it in hiatus), that I am not an angry person. I don't know how many more times I have to say it. But of course, a friend of mine told me he counted the times he had to express himself about a certain issue concerning Black folk to his white co-workers. It was more than 20 times before they got it. And even to that point, some still didn't get it. So, I still think that there has to be an effective way of "telling it like it is" so that people from both sides can start finally getting it and not resort down the path of calling anyone "racist".

That is something we don't need to do. People should not have to be labeled a bigot, a racist, or anything of the sort. We need to get past that and just talk. Is that so hard?

I know I really don't want to repeat myself twenty or more times to get my point of across. I'm sure that others don't want to do the same.

That is all I wanted to say. Now, I will dip out again until I find something else worthy in this thread to contribute to.






[edit on 2-9-2006 by ceci2006]

Hey Ceci!

Originally posted by ceci2006
But how many people will really learn how to see past their narrow definitions?

Well, I had quite a turn-around on the last page, so maybe other people are learning something here. This is a good discussion. Thanks for starting it.

I'm still rethinking everything that has been said in the thread. And now, I think I'm learning to lessen my frustration and starting to think about what could be that middle ground.

Good, I'm glad. That's really the best any of us can hope for, a middle ground. You can't expect everyone to agree 100% on anything.

Hey, HH, I said before many times that all of us do not think alike. I wouldn't want all Black people to be in lock-step.

Yeah, there is a wide spectrum of "black thought" on a lot of controversial subjects, like homosexuality, for example.

I still respect and admire your words and inferences even though we have a difference in agreement. And you do have a lot of courage to continue to speak with such reconciliatory gentleness in your voice.

Thank you, Ceci. You know that means a lot to me.

So I respect your position.

That's what I think this whole conversation is about. Respect. You don't have to agree with some to maybe see where they're coming from.

Since there are some whites who are angry about affirmative action, could one say that they are also angry at the system as well?

That is an excellent point. I think I'll add that to my working theory on the "Global Elite" and their devisive use of racism. I'll give you some credit.

So why is their anger deemed legitimate and ours (if we are incensed) reflected as "personal irresponsibility"?

I think that's due, not to the average white wo/man, but to those framing the argument in the media. They just happen, a lot of the time, to be white. I also suspect that, unfortunately, blacks are expendable in the Grand Plan. I think the Elite would prefer that, whichever of the population they 'save,' to serve them, be white. [There's a joke about why traditional science fiction never has any black people. Because white people don't see us in their future.]

It doesn't really matter what color the slave is, as long as they work. And if all they want regular people for is slavery, they can keep it. I don't feel hurt.

Politicians make decisions every day that are "out of our control". Why is it so hard to understand that there are laws, politics and social ettiquette that do the same thing?

You're right. I think that the average American always thought their government worked in their best interests (except for the fringe conspiracy theorists, like us, lol). It's just recently that people are seeing through the System. I think that this 'era' is the best time to have this discussion.

a friend of mine told me he counted the times he had to express himself about a certain issue concerning Black folk to his white co-workers more than 20 times before they got it. And even to that point, some still didn't get it. So, I still think that there has to be an effective way of "telling it like it is" so that people from both sides can start finally getting it.

Haha. Your friend's story is real. But, seriously, I think that's the result of stereotypes and assumptions, on both sides. This issue of racism in America has been going on so long that both sides think they know the other side's argument, like a married couple on the edge of a divorce.


[edit on 2-9-2006 by HarlemHottie]

Hey HH!

Originally quoted by HarlemHottie
Well, I had quite a turn-around on the last page, so maybe other people are learning something here. This is a good discussion. Thanks for starting it.

You are very welcome. It is comments like yours that give me renewed hope about having a great discussion based on this topic.

Good, I'm glad. That's really the best any of us can hope for, a middle ground. You can't expect everyone to agree 100% on anything.

You're right. We can't agree on everything. But I think that after I had made my decision to pull out, I began to think hard about my principles. And if I truly wanted people from all walks of life to get along, I should also be there. After all, a middle ground is important for all of us. It has nothing to do with personality. But it does have to do with trying to get some ideas down about how this issue is solved. I think that is a goal that all of us participating in the thread could hope for.

And I think it is doable--if the finger-pointing stops. I'll say it now. I will not finger-point. But, I have a right to address my dissenters if they question my ideas. I think that is very fair.

Yeah, there is a wide spectrum of "black thought" on a lot of controversial subjects, like homosexuality, for example.

Of course, there is. Controversial subjects are especially dealt with differently by various segments of African-Americans depending on class, region, and religion. With homosexuality, religion and region plays a lot into the difference of opinion.

Thank you, Ceci. You know that means a lot to me.

You're very welcome. Out of everyone, you are the rock of this thread. I appreciate that.

That's what I think this whole conversation is about. Respect. You don't have to agree with some to maybe see where they're coming from.

Respect is something that is also doable here. I think that if we keep it as a "discussion" then we can afford to "respect" each other. However, it starts with each one of us. Some people aren't willing to give the "respect" afforded to another because they simply can't. That's too bad. But everyone else has been fine.

Thinking about that made me want to answer your posts. I thank you for answering my post without any vicissitude.

That is an excellent point. I think I'll add that to my working theory on the "Global Elite" and their devisive use of racism. I'll give you some credit.

Thanks for doing that. I am gratified that you would think of me. However what is of more relevance to me is to see what you can do with it. I will be very fascinated to see what you work out.

I think that's due, not to the average white wo/man, but to those framing the argument in the media. They just happen, a lot of the time, to be white. I also suspect that, unfortunately, blacks are expendable in the Grand Plan. I think the Elite would prefer that, whichever of the population they 'save,' to serve them, be white. [There's a joke about why traditional science fiction never has any black people. Because white people don't see us in their future.]

It doesn't really matter what color the slave is, as long as they work. And if all they want regular people for is slavery, they can keep it. I don't feel hurt.

Fair enough. The media does utilize punditry and politics as a way to frame the argument as one that only supplicates the "irritations" of one particular class and segment of people. Because they are within the target-audience of news, entertainment (and of course talk show punditry), their concerns are going to be the first heard. If the anchors, pundits, politicians, and opinion leaders are white, their views will be communicated first. There's no racism about this. It's just a factor of today's media. Until the faces in the media change, then the message and the issues will change as well.

Blacks are portrayed as frightening to the "target audience". To them, we're "prone to crime", "asking for handouts", "having babies" and of course, "always complaining about race". If you hear that a hundred times spoken by other white opinion leaders, what else are you going to think? It seems that because the "target audience" felt this way about Blacks, they are a "scapegoat" to use and abuse. I can see why Blacks are expendable in the plan. I hate to say it, but every other race is of greater value to the upper echelon. Blacks can be scorned by everyone. The stereotypes stick to us because we aren't considered in the same light as anyone else.

Btw, although its true that there "few Blacks in science fiction", I just wanted to tell you that Gene Roddenberry and Ray Bradbury took their stab at including Black folks in their works. In fact, Bradbury wrote a story about a planet of Black people who lived on Mars while Whites destroyed the earth. And when the last remaining Whites landed on Mars, the Black people were astonished because the newer generations had not seen "Whites before". But the older ones knew (I believe) that the Whites wanted the Blacks off the Earth. If I find the title of the story, I'll tell you what it is. It is in one of Bradbury's short story collections.

And Roddenberry is the first to have a multi-racial cast in science fiction TV.

You're right. I think that the average American always thought their government worked in their best interests (except for the fringe conspiracy theorists, like us, lol). It's just recently that people are seeing through the System. I think that this 'era' is the best time to have this discussion.

I agree with you because this is a "conspiracy culture". And thanks to the present Administration, there isn't anything different to dissuade us from this type of thinking. 9/11 alone has stirred a lot of conspiracy theories.

Haha. Your friend's story is real. But, seriously, I think that's the result of stereotypes and assumptions, on both sides. This issue of racism in America has been going on so long that both sides think they know the other side's argument, like a married couple on the edge of a divorce.

That I agree with the most. And yes, my friend's story is very real. It's just that he was "anal retentive" enough to count all the times he explained the same issue over to his co-workers. And it caused him to be flabbergasted at how many times they spoke on the same issue without getting past the premise.

I know that I've had to repeat myself many times, but I'd go crazy if I had to do it twenty times. If you get that far, you'd have to have a lot of stamina.

This is not what I want on this thread. I do not want us to repeat ourselves over and over. There has got to be a way to break the stalemale. Your analogy is right. I think there is an assumption that both sides know the other's argument. As a result, we are arguing about the same old things without getting any sense of finding an answer.

I think, with your and other people's help, we can find those answers if our hearts and minds are into it. No more focusing on dignitaries. Let's stop pussyfooting around and find some solutions for people to get along better in this world.

As I read above, some people do have to have their thinking changed. They go along with the most antiquated stereotypes. And I think that this has to do with the media as well. So, it's up to all of us participating in this thread to do something about this.

It's sad to do this, but sometimes even the most civilized of people have the most abhorrent thinking about others. It is terrible enough that they have to project their own plight on to a group of people--especially when it has to do with "handouts". For those doing the accusing, I would ask them to also get up off of their lazy behinds and focus more on their jobs instead of spewing venom and steretypes. Then, I'd ask them to stop sticking their long, wooden noses into a subject they presume to be the brain-trust about.

If you think about it, those who complain probably get more "handouts" from the government due to who they belong to and who they are. But they focus their ire on Black people. I wonder why they aren't as angry with poor whites for sucking off the system in greater numbers?

Furthermore, our soldiers are getting "handouts" from the government. The "politicians" they support are getting handouts from the government as well. And those "faith-based" organizations they participate in "are getting hand-outs" from the government by virtue of the present Administration. And white women are also a class of people getting "handouts" and filling up quotas in terms of "minority-owned" businesses as well as jobs. They are not left out of wagon train not for one second.

So I would think that those complaining about "reparations" and "affirmative action" have to devote themselves to work instead of making false complaints. Social welfare and "reparations" are not the only government sponsored programs that gives money to people in this country. What about Special-Ops? They're getting money hand over fist from the gov't. Do they also share in the stigma of social giveaways?

What about people in Alaska getting oil dividends?

If those who did the "accusing" just had a little humility and minded their business, half of the problems regarding stereotypes and subtle racism would be solved. The disinformation would be stopped.

But you're right. It is a conspiracy of a highest order to peg one race of people for all of society's ills. Let's change perceptions and focus on this matter right away. I think this is the epicenter of the problems.

Thanks for giving me this opportunity to answer. Now, I will sit back and read the comments from the others.






[edit on 2-9-2006 by ceci2006]

Originally posted by HarlemHottie

I agree that the guy in the example had made a lot of bad choices. I haven't made any of them, but racism still adversely affects my life. Does that change your mind?

I don't know if it changes my mind; but this entire exchange did change my realization of the way I say things. If I gave the impression that I was lumping all Blacks together with a certain attitude, then I need to re-examine the way I say things. Because that was not my intention.

Well, it was not my conscious intention to lump all blacks together. Did I subconsciously imply that you agreed with every other black member? Obviously I did. Mea culpa.

But, with the way things have been flying around here lately, I haven't paid much attention to singular vs plural and past vs present tense, etc.

Edit to say I'm sorry for lumping you in with anybody else, HH. And that's the truth. (ref. to old comedy show)

[edit on 2-9-2006 by jsobecky]

Originally posted by jsobecky
Well, it was not my conscious intention to lump all blacks together. Did I subconsciously imply that you agreed with every other black member? Obviously I did. Mea culpa.

Thank you. I figured it was a subconscious thing, that's why I pressed the issue. We all have to be careful about lumping people together in a conversation about race.

If something like this happened in real life, we probably wouldn't have had the opportunity, or will, to really break it down and discuss what went wrong. That's probably the root of a lot of RL racial disputes.

So, anyway, thank you again for your apology. I know you didn't mean it.