What can we do to address race-relations and solve racism?

Originally posted by HarlemHottie
If something like this happened in real life, we probably wouldn't have had the opportunity, or will, to really break it down and discuss what went wrong. That's probably the root of a lot of RL racial disputes.

So, anyway, thank you again for your apology. I know you didn't mean it.

Just for clarification, you do know the apology was sincere. Right?
Emphasis added.

Wow, jso. See how tricky words can be?

I meant that you didn't mean it originally. I took your apology as sincere.

Haha. That was funny.

Originally posted by ceci2006
And this from an ....

OMG that was funny. First it was 'failed psychology major', then it was changed; then it was changed again .... Can't make up your mind which insults and lies you wish to post this time? Nope. I didn't fail psychology. Got straight A's in the psychology courses (B in Math and English) and I am a degeed graduate. In fact I recently started back to get another degree and to update since psychology is like medicine and things change. It doesn't take a psychologist to see that YOU have serious issues though. Seriously ... get some help.

I will not disrupt the thread again with comments like these.

You say this constantly ... thread after thread after thread .. and then you break these promises constantly. You huff off and throw insults when conversations dont' go your way. All the while promising not to return ... but thread after thread after thread you continually return.

BTW ... your 'apologies' are running thin. Thread after thread you apologize for your outbursts and after a while no one takes those kind of apologies seriously.
That's the kind of thing wife beaters do. They beat their wives and then send flowers and then just turn around and beat them again. Sick.

So now listing people 'of color' who are positive role models is not cancer but a sexually transmitted disease? Applauding people who are making life better for everyone is a sexually transmitted disease? How old are you? You sound like you are a teenager in high school. What are YOU doing as far as self responsibility and earning a living for yourself? What do YOU do to better yourself and the world? All we see is you sitting on your computer all day whining about great grandpappy having to pay a poll tax. (which may or may not be true ... considering how you lie about people here we don't even know if this allegation from you is true) This is 2006. Do you have a job? Did you go to school? What positive contributions are YOU making to the world and what are you doing to be SELF RESPONSIBLE like those people previously linked to?



[edit on 9/2/2006 by FlyersFan]

Ceci said -

Social welfare and "reparations" are not the only government sponsored programs that gives money to people in this country. What about Special-Ops? They're getting money hand over fist from the gov't. Do they also share in the stigma of social giveaways?

Special-ops.... as in National Defense? Special Operations are a part of our NATIONAL DEFENSE. National defense and social giveaways are two very different things.

If you are saying that building the B-2 ;or the Stealth Fighter; or keeping our Special Forces up to defend us is a social giveaway then that's totally wonky and that statement deserves a to be blasted right out of this solar system.

You can't possibly mean Special Ops as in national defense ... please say it's some other Special Ops. Otherwise ... that statement is going to get seriously blasted and it will be very ugly.

And from one of the MANY Ceci insults that she posted and then changed -

But I pray for your soul, FF. I truly do. Because yours is terribly dark. I believe that not even an exorcist can save you. And no priest, by request, will ever go near you for fear of being possessed.

If you wish to pretend to be religious Ceci then next time you, an able bodied supposed-adult, want to steal money from working people I suggest you go read
2 Thessalonians 3:10-13

"Anyone who would not work should not eat. We have that some of you are unruly, not keeping busy but acting like busy-bodies. We enjoin all such, and we urge them strongly in the Lord Jesus Christ, to earn the food they eat by working quietly. You must never grow weary of doing what is right, brothers."

BH, HH, JSO, myself, and all other tax payers in this country DO NOT owe you a thing. This is 2006. Black slavery in America happened hundreds of years ago.

Hell, at one point in time or another just about everyone's ancestors were slaves to someone else. My Irish ancestors were probably owned by my English ancestors and my Native American ancestors were probably mistreated by them and the Canadian ancestors too boot. Ever see Far and Away? Everyone has had a hard time and/or slavery of some sort in their ancestory. So what. It doesn't earn them a right to steal money from other people who work for it.

Open a newspaper. Get a job. Work to eat.




[edit on 9/2/2006 by FlyersFan]

Originally posted by HarlemHottie
So you know, I would never call anybody a 'racist.' I don't use it as a noun, but as an adjective, or an adverb.

That was racist.

He acted racist.
...
Thanks for leading me on that little bit of self-discovery.

And thanks to both of you (HH and jsobecky) for this important exchange. I also learned something about myself here and I'm going to endeavor to only use the word 'racist' as an adjective or an adverb from now on.

Originally posted by HarlemHottie
That made me think of a general question that I want everyone to answer, if they know: What do poor whites think about their situations? Do they feel like, if they just get off their butts and work really hard, they could 'make it?' Or, do they feel like someone or something is 'keeping them down?'

I think you'll find some in both camps. And some who are content with being poor. I've known all three. One of my best friends said to me the other day, "They just repossessed my car, but I'm doing really good"! I told him that I just love that about him! He can be without car, without food, without money to pay child support (he's years behind) and still think life is great and that he's doing really well...

I think it's a matter of accountability. Anyone can be accountable for their current condition and anyone can blame the world or the universe for it. It's a matter of personal growth and determination. But once a person takes full responsibility for their position (regardless if someone is 'keeping them down' or not) only then can they move out of it, IMO.

Both my husband and I have been poor in the past, separately. When I was poor, I lived on the street. I panhandled, ate at St.Vincent de Paul and slept in the park. I had seizures and couldn't drive or get a job. But I never felt that someone was keeping me down. It was just the way my life was at the time. I had friends and was actually pretty happy. I was not angry. I played my guitar and sang for quarters. I was eventually able to get off the streets and to a doctor who prescribed the right medication.

On the Right to be Angry

We ALL have the right to be angry. And we are all angry at times. Sometimes racially motivated, sometimes not. But it's OK to get and be angry. That's not a crime or a sin.

What's 'wrong' is to act in anger. What's 'wrong' is to apply one's anger to a group of people and take it out on an innocent person in that group.

Originally posted by ceci2006
It's funny how people can throw around all sorts of things to identify others without feeling anything.

Like "Miss Scarlett"? Like "The Lyncher"? Yeah, fascinating. I STILL don't know what I said to deserve that. You have never shown me what I said to deserve to be labeled such hateful, insulting, racist names.

Originally posted by ceci2006
I have said many times on this thread (now reading back upon it in hiatus), that I am not an angry person.

You've said you're not angry many times, but your (angry) words show something very different. What else could make you lash out and call people the names you have? A black woman doesn't call a white woman "Miss Scarlett" without anger.

Originally posted by ceci2006
That is something we don't need to do. People should not have to be labeled a bigot, a racist, or anything of the sort. We need to get past that and just talk. Is that so hard?

Yes, we need to do that, so could you stop? You have said time and time again that you will make no more personal remarks, yet you do. I'm sorry, Ceci, but you're the worst offender of name calling in this thread.

You said:

Originally posted by ceci2006
It's so funny to comment on the filth coming out of others' mouths but really ignore your own.

Indeed. Ceci, you ALSO comment on the filth (feces) coming from others' mouths, but ignore your own. "A cancer" ... "An STD" ... A "bigoted antagonist" ... "Feces" ... "The Lyncher" ... Do these ring a bell?

You called FF a bigoted antagonist, but then you edited that post about 8 times before you finally settled on the names you wished to call her and jsobecky.

Originally posted by ceci2006Originally posted by ceci2006
But I was wrong about the cancer analogy. Jsobecky and you are more like an STD that refuses to go away--causing sterility, insanity and indelible markings on the body of life and thought.

Not angry?

Originally posted by ceci2006
But I pray for your soul, FF. I truly do. Because yours is terribly dark. I believe that not even an exorcist can save you. And no priest, by request, will ever go near you for fear of being possessed.

What is this if not anger? You're furious! And you have a lot of racially based anger. And that's ok. You are justified. But please stop taking it out on people here in this thread. Especially when you're calling for everyone else to do the same.

I suggest you do that Golden Rule thing you were preaching about. Before you post, read over your post with the Golden Rule in mind. See if you're following it...

You have voted Benevolent Heretic for the Way Above Top Secret award.
You have used all of your votes for this month.

You know BH .. I posted a whole lotta great links about people who are wonderful role models and how they took 'self responsibility' for their lives. There are tons of wonderful examples of people like this of all color and all backgrounds. How about we take a good look at THEM and see what positive things they did to get themselves where they are today?

Astronaut Mae Jemison -
www.jsc.nasa.gov...
afroamhistory.about.com...

For quite a while my daughter wanted to be an astronaut and looked up to this
woman. She now looks to Dr. Rice and is very impressed with her, but this was the first person my daughter got excited about.



[edit on 9/2/2006 by FlyersFan]

Originally posted by FlyersFan
There are tons of wonderful examples of people like this of all color and all backgrounds. How about we take a good look at THEM and see what positive things they did to get themselves where they are today?

Excellent idea! Inspiration always works better than derision.

I am really busy today, but I will look into this later and do some research of my own and post again. Hopefully today.

And thank you. You and I disagree on many things but we maintain a healthy, honest respect for each other and I appreciate that so much.

Wow... took a couple of days off to move, and now I'm way behind...

Originally posted by HarlemHottie
Do you believe that current racial fissures in the US could have been set into motion, or exacerbated, by the "Globalist Elite*" in an effort to 'divide and conquer' the American population?

Absolutely yes. No doubt at all.

Regarding Black Rage
It has been asked here if there is some reason the phenomenon called Black Rage should for some reason not be legitimate (or words to that effect).

I believe that asking the question: "Is black rage legitimate?" is not the right question to be asking. Rage is just an emotion. Humans are emotional animals. All emotions are legitimate to the person experiencing them.

I believe a better (for lack of a better word) question to ask is, "Is black rage effective?

And clearly, this is not a question with a simplistic Yes or No answer.

It's probably fair to say that the rage being felt and expressed by the guy in niteboy's encounter was not effective. In fact, there is probably an argument to be made that this rage may have resulted in a setback of relations between races in the US.

On the other hand, the rage felt and expressed by Rosa Parks was effective... even though it took a while.

Legitimacy is not the question. Effectiveness is.

Originally posted by Open_Minded Skeptic
I believe that asking the question: "Is black rage legitimate?" is not the right question to be asking. Rage is just an emotion. Humans are emotional animals. All emotions are legitimate to the person experiencing them.

I believe a better (for lack of a better word) question to ask is, "Is black rage effective?

Brilliant!

On successful people of any race:

I have taken some time here just to see what I can find and I've come to the conclusion that success can be measured in many ways. Afer all, many people who consider themselves successful, don't have money. An outstandingly successful teacher, such as Rafe Esquith may not be wealthy, but he is a tremendous and inspirational success.

...For 24 years, Rafe Esquith has continued to teach at Hobart Elementary, an inner-city school in Los Angeles, inspiring his fifth graders to excel far beyond the low expectations often placed on poor, immigrant children.
…
Their hard work shows up in test scores: They consistently score in the top 5 percent to 10 percent of the country.

One of the most inspirational stories is that of Helen Keller. At the age of 19 months she had an illness that took her hearing and sight. By age seven she had invented over sixty different signs that she could use to communicate with her family. Even as a child, she was determined not to let the ‘odds’ keep her down.

Overcoming the numerous hardships life handed her, she went on to get a wonderful education and became politically active, advocating for the handicapped in speaking engagements and writings (She authored 11 books).

Keller is credited with having introduced the Akita dog to America, was awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom and raised money for the American Foundation for the Blind.

This woman’s story is truly inspirational. She’s white, I know, but my point is that she was handed lemons in life and instead of looking for someone to blame or letting the world take care of her (which she had every right to do), she MADE her life into what she wanted it to be.

Consider James Forten, born in 1766 as a free black man and the grandson of slaves. He, like many other people, worked hard to make a life for himself.

The fortune he soon made was enormous for any man, Black or White. Forten spent his money and lived a luxurious life, but he also made good use of his resources on people other than his self. More than half of his considerable fortune was devoted towards abolitionist causes. He often purchased slaves freedom, helped to finance and bring in funding for William Garrison's newspaper, the Libertarian, opened his home on Lombard Street as an Underground Railroad depot and opened a school for Black children.

And finally, an inspiration beyond all others (to me) is Madam C. J. Walker.

Madam C. J. Walker, was born into a former-slave family to parents Owen and Minerva Breedlove.
…
She became an orphan at age 7 when her parents died during an epidemic of yellow fever. To escape the epidemic and failing cotton crops, the ten year old Sarah and her sister moved across the river to Vicksburg in 1878 and obtained work as maids.
…
Madam Walker was an entrepreneur who built her empire developing hair products for black women.
…
Upon her death she was considered to be the wealthiest African-American woman in America and known to be the first African-American woman millionaire. Some sources cite her as the first self-made American woman millionaire.

Self-Made... She made herself. She didn't look to anyone else to owe her anything. She took what she had and MADE herself into what she wanted to be.

This is the kind of inspiration people need to draw on. I know there's racism, I know things aren't fair, but there's a big difference between people who aren't successful (whatever that means to each individual) and those who are. It's not the color of one's skin, and it's not what life hands you, or who's keeping you down. It's what you do with what you have. Pure and simple. It's each person's willingness to dream, to reach, to believe and to persevere.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
And finally, an inspiration beyond all others (to me) is Madam C. J. Walker[/url].

She's always been a personal favorite of mine too. Her house, or should I say mansion, is located here in Harlem. It's current use is as an annex to the famous Schomburg Museum.

I remember learning about her, actually at the Schomburg on a schooltrip, maybe even in her house. She was a true inspiration to my class, little black kids from a public school in Harlem. So, please don't think that "we" don't look to black luminaries of the past and present. (That last part was for everybody, not just BH)

But, as an adult, I learned how Madam CJ Walker made her fortune, and I have to say, I was a little dismayed. She made it from "hair care products," specifically, hot-combs and, I believe, the first relaxer. So, she made her money by profiting from her people's self-hatred. That part, I can't admire. Although I'm glad that she 'made it,' I can't say that I respect her methodology.

I just wanted to throw that out there, a different perspective.

Originally posted by HarlemHottie
So, she made her money by profiting from her people's self-hatred. That part, I can't admire. Although I'm glad that she 'made it,' I can't say that I respect her methodology.

Yes, I knew about that. From my link:

When confronted with the idea that she was trying to conform black women's hair to that of whites, she stressed that her products were simply an attempt to help black women take proper care of their hair and promote its growth.

People can judge that any way they wish. You want to think of it as self-hatred, she obviously thought of it as loving yourself enough to feel worthy of taking care of yourself in the way you choose, whether that be having straight OR curly hair. It's about choice.

Let me ask you... Was the perm craze in the 70s and 80s about white women hating themselves and wanting to be more like black women? Or is that something else? I'm not trying to be confrontive (well, a little) but I always like to look at things from both sides if possible. It gives a better perspective.

I had plenty of perms (my hair is straight as a board) and it had nothing to do with self-hatred. A woman fixing her hair (differently then it naturally is) is just a matter of choice, which I think is the important thing. If a black woman straightening her hair is about self hatred, then we could say the whole cosmetics industry is because of women's self hatred.

Edited to add:

During the 1890s, Sarah [Walker] began to suffer from a scalp ailment that caused her to lose some of her hair. Embarrassed by her appearance, she experimented with a variety of home-made remedies and products made by another black woman entrepreneur, Annie Malone.
...
"I am a woman who came from the cotton fields of the South. From there I was promoted to the washtub. From there I was promoted to the cook kitchen. And from there I promoted myself into the business of manufacturing hair goods and preparations. I have built my own factory on my own ground" - Madame Walker

Source

[edit on 2-9-2006 by Benevolent Heretic]

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
This woman’s story is truly inspirational. She’s white, I know, but ...

We are talking about people of ALL COLORs and backgrounds who are inspirational, right? People of ALL COLORS and backgrounds who are 'self responsible' and who are great role models. To exclude a heroic disabled woman because of the color of her skin would be racism. You are right BH, Helen Keller is an INCREDIBLE role model and inspiration. Not just for people with physical disabilities, but for everyone. When we lived in Alabama we made sure to visit her home. Her story is amazing and a lesson to all of us.

It's what you do with what you have. Pure and simple.

When looking at these folks what is it that they have that has helped them to become the heroes they are to us? I think you are touching on it BH. They took what God gave them and made it work.

I have a plate that hangs in my house. I bought it 20 years ago. This is what it says - "What you are is God's gift to you - What you make of yourself is your gift to God." Good words to live by, eh?

When my daughter did her report in Social Studies last year on Dr. Rice, the one thing that really impressed my daughter was the quote from Dr. Rice about how she was determined to work twice as hard as everyone else in everything so that even though things may be stacked against her in life she'd still do well. Dr. Rice said that soon after her friend died in the Church bombing in Birmingham AL. Now Dr. Rice is an accomplished author of mulitiple books; speaks fluent Russian; is Secretary of State for the USA; and is a close advisor to the President of the United States. In a totally fair world she wouldn't have had to have worked 'twice as hard' as everyone else, but that's exactly what she did. And we see the results. She's now in a position to inspire and make positive changes. She'd never have this life if she curled up in a ball and complained about life being unfair. She would be right; life more often than not is unfair; but she conquered it.




[edit on 9/2/2006 by FlyersFan]

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Was the perm craze in the 70s and 80s about white women hating themselves and wanting to be more like black women?

Oh BH ... I had a GREAT tight curl perm on my shoulder length blonde hair in the 70's. I was definately not because I hated myself or because I wanted to be black. I thought it looked great and I loved it. It had nothing to do with hate or anything else. It was just about hair. That's it.

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar .... ya' know?

then we could say the whole cosmetics industry is because of women's self hatred.

Ohhhh ... that could be a whole different thread and a whole different discussion .. self hate, money, obsession, psychological issues, big business, etc. etc.


[edit on 9/2/2006 by FlyersFan]

Hey ladies why bother yourselves in thinking so deeply about how you're styling your hair. Just take a size three and cut that bad boy really short like me. (on second though don't do that) Ok, enough off me, back to the successful people.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
She would be right; life more often than not is unfair;

I have a saying that gets me through a lot of difficult times. "Do I want to be 'right' or do I want to get what I want"? Because a lot of times, being "right" about something (and attaching myself to that) actually keeps me from getting what I say I want.

It's been a long time since I've struggled with this because I kinda gave up being right about everything a while ago, but one example is when my husband and I work together to build wood products. What I WANTED was for us to have fun and enjoy doing a hobby together. But many times, I just knew I was right about how to do a particular step and of course, he knew he was right. We ended up arguing and in a power struggle that made the whole thing very unpleasant.

The truth is, either method would have resulted in a fine product, but we were both attached to being right. So, what we wanted (fun hobby) was sacrificed for being right.

So no matter how 'right' a person is, if they're not getting what they say they want, it's likely that being 'right' is what's stopping them from getting it.

Yes, I agree that people from all walks of life can be inspirational. For the people I have liked are Maxine Hong Kingston, Rosa Parks, Coretta Scott King, Dolores Huerta and of course, I find inspiration from others who are willing to challenge the system and speak out against those who try to prevent social injustice. These women were proud of their heritage, spoke out for peace and campaigned for the rights of the least of us. They are powerful women. And they are effective women.

There are many others that make my list of effective people. Like Ben Franklin. Thomas Paine. Emma Goldberg. Voltaire. Ralph Waldo Emerson. Henry Thoreau. And of course, Charles Dickens. They all talked about the plight of people and dealt with it in their own unique way. They left a body of literature for us to read to think about the condition of man and to contemplate it. And best of all, they all challenged authority in their own way, using their anger righteously and effectively when questioning class. And some, like Charles Dickens and Ben Franklin, for example, questioned race as well.

It's sad that people like BH have to focus on anger. That is so two days ago. We're trying to find solutions to the problems. And it has nothing to do with my behavior. But if one is petty enough to focus on the another's behaviors, then so be it. I laugh at your attempts to make me feel bad about my words. So be petty and wag your finger if you must. But, please do not presume to tell me how to feel and what my words mean.

About for being "right". It is better to be "right" rather than sweeping it under the rug. Once people acknowledge it, then something can be done about it. And the system can change.

And for FF, all I can say is that I do pray for your soul. Because not all the blessings in the world will cleanse the darkness that is there. This time, you are the STALKER. If you weren't, you wouldn't be on this thread parasitically. You'd start your own (like the "illegals getting the gringos", remember?). Please leave me alone and accept that your people get more "handouts" than the rest of us. And since you are a woman and a white person, you get double handouts and social giveaways. Sigh. Stop lying and face the truth that you have a serious problem with Black people. Not even your list of "assimilators" can cover it up. I think you need to deal with your own house before you take a sledge hammer to someone else's.

HH, thank you for your words. Apologies sometimes are tricky. The government tries to make apologies all the time. But do they actually mean them? It has to do with action. And words can amount to nothing, unless they are truly acted upon--especially when one has to ask whether you think it is sincere or not. And love your avatar.






[edit on 2-9-2006 by ceci2006]

I think the solution is lots and lots of sex( looks around nervously). Between the different races of course. I've never met a racist pornstar! I was very distrustful of white people until I..er..ah...@#**ed a white girl. Sweet and I feel a lot more comfortable around white people now. Same with asians I never got them(their ways seemed strange to me) but a very nice asian girl made me understand So if you think you are racist watch some interracial porn and then find someone of that race you find attractive and bang 'em. I'll buy you a guiness and you tell me all about it m'kay? Cheers! :w:

Was she Paris Hilton, my dear?

Originally posted by Elijio
I'll buy you a guiness and you tell me all about it m'kay? Cheers!

:w:

I don't kiss and tell, but I loved your post!
I think you just might have something there.

Hey man that might work, *puts on caring and sensitive voice* "hey baby I'm just trying to improve race relations so what do you think huh?" But in all seriousness I've seen what you described cause some major problems because some just aren't ready to accept that, you have to first fix that before you do this because for the general population it wont do a damn thing. Think about it, you and the other girls couldn't have been racists to begin with or else you wouldn't have done something like that, but how is that going to help others? IMO it will just piss them off even more.

[edit on 2-9-2006 by WestPoint23]