Can we agree that Bush was right? ...Finally?

Flipping The One-Sided Coin

Originally posted by Echtelion
"Dangerous political extremism", this is how I'd name this thread.

God forbid we should define ourselves in absolutes, point fingers at one another and polarize ourselves along political lines.

Self-righteousness is indeed a powerful force for evil, and by no means limited to the United States.

Troubling times indeed.

On the bright side, "heteroclitic" is now my word for the day.

It's a double ended coin.
No...It's not good vs. evil, that is reserved for individual choices, actions etc...
nor is it Bush is bad US is bad, islam is Bad etc...
Consider the bigger picture.
Not bigger as in our lifetimes or what the next administration might do...consider the whole of human history.
History always has and always will repeat itself.
This whole issue is far bigger than 9-11, oil, Bush, Bin Laden...all of that is the window dressings.
It goes back to before the Crusades, when Muslim armies conquered Spain, Portugal and parts of France. Charles Martel, the hammer, Charlemegne and the Holy Roman Empire....that's how far back all of this goes.
Consider how the Western world became strong and eventually ruled the world...it wasn't Christianity, nor was it science (the Muslim world was far ahead in those days in the areas of the sciences) rather it was oppression.
The collapse of the Roman Empire to outside military pressure (Barbarian tribes) and internal turmoil left a power vacuum in Europe that brought upon the dark ages. The rise of the Prophet Mohhammed and the subsequent wars of Islamic conquest eventually creeped into Western Europe.
For a while, Islam dominated Europe...Then Europe fought back.
Only the strong survived, the most vicious,ruthless, barbaric...only they stood after the heat of battle, the blood of their fallen enemies dripping off their chain mail.
Relentlessly men like El Cid, Charles Martell and Vlad the Impaler drove the Muslims out of Europe (with a pause for the Crusades of course)
Europe learned the true meaning of life, survival of the most ruthless.
The age of Imperialism from the 1600's to the 1800's was an ingrained psychological response to the Muslim invasions of centuries past.
Rather than ever have to face oppression and massacre again, the Europeans in turn became the oppressors and the instigators of massacres.
History swings in a circle.
It always starts small....unless you can discover the master of the puppets.
Who are the masters? Oil execs? Industrialists? politicians? You're not thinking big enough.
History itself.
Human history always follows patterns. War, recovery, prosperity, unrest, turmoil, war etc...
I would define the "War on Terror" to be the phase of turmoil. The unrest was obvioulsy the 80's and 90's, the era of human greed in the West, prosperity was the 50's to the early 70's, recovery was the late 40's and so on. Other parts of the world experience the cycle differently, but the pattern is always the same.
We always try to escape it, always we try to forge alliances that will ensure that the last war WAS the last war...and yet we always fail, more catastrophically each time.
What comes next is something that only those who have lived in oppressed societies and who have known privation will prevail....the west, with its luxury and greed and its ingrained need to cling to power to avoid history, will instead become history.
Who is pulling the strings? Who benefits? Why?
Does Bush?...It isn't hard to link him to secret societies long tied to Western Europe and the self proclaimed aristocracy of the survivors of the fall of Rome.
But so is John Kerry, Al Gore and nearly every other high official inside the US government. We are all immigrants....the secret societies came with us.
Who controls Al Qaeda? Is it the CIA? Does it really exist?
Rather the proper question should be...who benefits?
Not in the short term....as is often hyped on these boards, that is obviously the oil industry...window dressings.
History swings in a circle.
What is the next logical step in the events of the war?....A unified Islamic Caliphate....just like the one that established itself after the fall of Rome...to oppress the oppressors.
History swings in a circle.
What would be the next logical evolution?...The fall of Rome....who is Rome?...Rome is the West...Specifically the United States and the European Union....the harbor and home of the secret societies...the self proclaimed aristocracy of the survivors of the fall of Rome.
Who benefits the greatest from their fall?....Short term or long term?
Short term....the Royal House of Saud...the machiavellian Imams who pull the strings of their puppets the insurgency, not realizing the strings on their own backs....who pulls those strings?
The awakening dragon....The return of the Han dynasty.
History swings in a circle.
It is irrelevant who started what when, what is relevant is who will survive the fire that was started....a fire that can not be doused...history.

Clearly, the original author of this thread is being sarcastic, right? I assume the goal was simply to get a reaction out of everyone, so well done, you've hit the spot!

The war is between chaos and peace. Both chaos and peace effect, and are achievable by, both "sides" of the conflict we perceive to be the war itself, simply because they're both guilty of the same offenses in differing forms. Both sides are wrong. They are currently being defeated by chaos: the real enemy. These base, territorial, pack instincts we've used our evolved consciousness - the same consciousness that might instead free us from them - to justify by calling them security, which, once achieved, we define as peace. Peace is equilibrium, not one side of the pendulum’s path.

Freedom versus evil? I concur, except that Bush - as well as many others including prominent democrats and, of course, the terrorists - is complicit in the erosion of the very freedom he says (and probably believes) he's waging war to protect. Do I have a better solution? No. I'm not in a position to make such decisions or suggestions, in any event. However, I don't need to be to see that the execution of a strategy that generates more terrorists, makes the majority of citizens even less trustful of their government than they already were, and erodes important social programs of various sorts - thus weakening a large part of the country's work force by allowing more to slip into poverty - isn't going to work against an adversary so insidious and which is multiplying more quickly than our forces can. And if it isn't going to work, then they need to find a better way, and they had best find it sooner rather than later, in my humble opinion.

I agree wholeheartedly with the poster who said history moves in cyclical patterns, but I also feel that we can, will, and must someday collectively get it through our heads that the traits and tendencies which perpetuate that endless spiral are the ones we need to do away with; not one another. We are the first creatures (that we know of) on this planet that are capable of maintaining a lucid awareness of our own instincts, and of overriding them simply because we choose to. I think we had best learn how to exercise this capability. We have it for a reason. Ignoring it and continuing to follow the same patterns and courses we have for countless generations, in my opinion, isn't it.

One good example of this would be to stop trying to demonize anyone whose view is one iota further to the right or left than our own.

It's not freedom versus evil. It's one extremism versus another. Both of them pointing fingers at western society and saying we've become weak and decadent and don't care about our 'values' anymore. I say they can both go to hell.

I hardly see how Bush was right... I don't see him as capable of being right or wrong about such complex issues, he just doesn't have the intellect for it. If you asked me if I thought Wolfowitz or Rice or Leo Strauss was right, I'd have to say no, but Bush just doesn't qualify. If you're listening to him and thinking he has anything constructive to add to today's times, you're part of the problem.

And on we go...

Taking The Dogma For A Walk

Originally posted by koji_K
It's not freedom versus evil. It's one extremism versus another.

There can be no agreement as long as we cling to extremes.

Thus if we wish to agree on anything, we must abandon extremism.

So, who goes first?

Hey, I'm foolish enough to rush in where angels fear to tread...

Majic's ATS Pledge

I hereby pledge to remember that no matter what someone's opinion may be, they probably have a good reason for having it.

I also pledge to remember that no one is perfect (especially me), no one knows everything, all of us are being deceived on many different levels and that this has been going on for much longer than any one of us has been alive.

Finally, I'll remember that talking about things on an Internet discussion forum is no substitute for applying what I learn to myself and the world around me, but that I can at least learn about both of these and much more right here in the presence of my online friends.

However, I can learn only if I'm open to ideas that don't simply reinforce my prejudices, if I respect the rights and opinions of others, and if I accept the very strong possibility that I'm wrong about a great many things.

Oh, and since I'm likely to screw up on every single point above, I pledge that if I do, I'll keep trying anyway.

And on we go...

Originally posted by Majic
...I can learn only if I'm open to ideas that don't simply reinforce my prejudices, if I respect the rights and opinions of others, and if I accept the very strong possibility that I'm wrong about a great many things...

In my opinion, and intending no offense to anyone else or belittlement of their contributions, the above is the most substantive and true statement in this entire thread.

Originally posted by Majic


Majic's ATS Pledge

I hereby pledge to remember that no matter what someone's opinion may be, they probably have a good reason for having it.

I also pledge to remember that no one is perfect (especially me), no one knows everything, all of us are being deceived on many different levels and that this has been going on for much longer than any one of us has been alive.

Finally, I'll remember that talking about things on an Internet discussion forum is no substitute for applying what I learn to myself and the world around me, but that I can at least learn about both of these and much more right here in the presence of my online friends.

( ... )

I'll sign it !!!! *grabs Gel Pen and VOila !!*

Originally posted by crmanager
BUSH WAS RIGHT.

I will NEVER EVER give GW the time of day, or a ounce of respect ......that loser is destroying our country and economy

anyone who voted for him should be shot !! IMO



[edit on 13-2-2006 by Alpha Grey]

Originally posted by crmanager
This is not an attempt to inflame anyone. This is a point of view that needs to be stated.

The world is at war. Not a religious war or even a political war. This is a war of Freedom and Democracy vs. EVIL!

3000 people died in a flash. Dozens died in Spain. Dozens more in London. Dozens in the U.S.S. Cole. Add Bali and Tanzania and Kenya. NOW A CARTOON is causing more death.

Bush was right. Freedom vs. Evil.

The bad guys want you to die because you are YOU. Thay want you and your family and your neighbors to die any way they can do it. The chemical weapons creation we found in Afgahnistan. Nukes, dirty bombs shoe bombs and airplanes turned to missles.

We all saw this before. Look at your history books. The 30 years war. The 100 years war.

My friends wake up. Maybe the NWO is trying to defend us from these nutbags. I don't know.

I do know this BUSH WAS RIGHT.

the people in Iran are being manipulated for political gain, just like we are. I read a great article that pointed out these cartoons were writtn in Sept, but are now being used for a very specific purpose.
Do you know the UN security council has a rotating schedule for who chairs it ?

Guess who is up next ?

Denmark

they are not evil, they are being used.

Originally posted by Toadmund
Santa clause and the Easter bunny are real!

Don't believe the hype.

Read some history of interference in Arab affairs, Arab poverty and you'll get a better educated perspective.
They don't hate you for your freedoms.

Don't give Bush glory he doesn't deserve.

Right...next thing people are going to claim is that Muslims did not try to submit the world to Islam by the sword for centuries....which is the same mentality that Islamic extremists have these days....

Why are so many Muslims taking up the cause of the extrmists? Because Mohammed was an extremist.

I just hope that true Muslim moderates wake up and realize that the old ways of Islam should not be followed these days. I am sure there are some who believe this and would never go extremist. But i am also certain that quite a few will continue to swarm the ranks of the extremists, if Islamic clerics do not get together and proclaim the old ways are obsolete I am afraid we will trully see the world being dragged into yet another war, and this time a war of religions.

I *DO* support Chavez, and no Bushbot ad hominem attacks or sleazy attempts to portray me as some sort of apologist for terrorism will work here. Chavez :

1)Was elected on a landslide (over 60% of the vote). The election was verified by the UN and Carter institute, as well as the media which is quite reactionary to his policies.

2) Chavez cleaned up the house of Multinational corruption. Companies had to pay taxes instead of cooking the books (the norm not the exception in Latinamerica) and unionize their workers, those who didn't had their taxes made retroactive. Those who refused to clean house after that warning had their property seized. Man I wish somebody in America had that sort of balls- an oil company jacks up the price of oil to the roof, kills all attempts to find clean cheap energy, mantains a scandlous cartel along with it's buddies, dodges taxes, has a private battalion of lobby men in congress, and can basically do anything they want any time. When the Sh*t hit's the fan congress has a little show and tell hearing and they are free to go. No balls here in America, completely bought off representation.

3) Nationalized oil keep's fuel costs for the poor cheap, and all profit derived from state Venezuelan oil sales goes to building infrastructure such as schools,roads, and Hospitals. What a difference here in America- the money instead goes to building gold palaces for Ken Lay types. Why does America still keep something so crucial to national security such as the oil trade in the hands of people you wouldn't even trust to buy a car from? It boggles my mind.

4)Chavez has banned all crop spraying by U.S. drug enforcement agents. In other words the outrageous (near genocidal) effects of this practice are gone. Peasants can live in peace without having blind, still born, children born to them, or starving to death because of agent orange like defoliants destroying their crops. Gee- I wonder why Chavez is so loved in Venezuela?

5) Chavez has improved all social services- Health care, Education, you name it. The Venezuelan budget is now being used for something better than filling the pockets of oligarchs. The Venezuelan armed forces are also better trained (you should expect that from a General leading your nation right?)

6) "Free trade" has effectively been banished from South America due to this man. Unionized labour, increasing wages, decent protectionist policy which nurture vulnerable Venezuelan industries are now in place. America will also benefit from one less outsourcing agreement.

I could go on and on.... Chavez is a fair leader, not the Cuban puppet some Bush cronies love to paint him as (or worse- insinuating he's got some sort of connection to Terrorism. WTF?!). Hugo Chavez Adolf Hitler Rummy? That's the pot calling the kettle black.

Originally posted by Alpha Grey

I will NEVER EVER give GW the time of day, or a ounce of respect

Thats alot of immaturity right there .... So when the man is proven right, you deny it ??? thats sad.

that loser is destroying our country and economy

economy can't be that bad when we all can still pay for Internet acess, is it ?? How about those delivery pizzas and starbukcs coffee's ???

anyone who voted for him should be shot !! IMO

[edit on 13-2-2006 by Alpha Grey]

God... if only Hitler had more ppl like you, he would have actually won WWII, wouldnt that have been great ???

Speaking a like a TRUE DEMOCRAT, thank you for showing your true Peacefull Free thinking Anti war Pro Peace colors...now imagine if only Bush came out and said that, you would be screamin bloody murder.

MODERATOR
If this is not political bickering I do not know what is. I thought this was not alowed here???? Are you not around today??? These extremists are ruining this site!!!! Can't have an intelegent discussion with this kind of childish behavior going on.

Originally posted by SpecAgentDW
.......................
nor was it science (the Muslim world was far ahead in those days in the areas of the sciences) rather it was oppression.
.......................

The Muslim world was not "far ahead in those days" all that knowledge was plagiarized from all the ethnic groups and countries they conquered in their goal to dominate the world by the sword to submit to Islam. Muslims were "nomads" those days.

Appart from that i agree with your post, good job. i am glad that there are some people who know history and do not hide behind "PC".

Good one Bastet, when someone disagress with you you use an ignorant appeal to ridicule. That's one of the most disgraceful rules of argumentation in existence, clearly I am giving you too much respect. Bush by the way fit's the mold of Adolf Hitler better than anybody on this website (even the Bin Laden apologust types).

Originally posted by Nakash
Good one Bastet, when someone disagress with you you use an ignorant appeal to ridicule. That's one of the most disgraceful rules of argumentation in existence, clearly I am giving you too much respect. Bush by the way fit's the mold of Adolf Hitler better than anybody on this website (even the Bin Laden apologust types).

You are right ... you are so rioght...I'm sorry... I should have just stay quiet and not make a comment to someone who said I should have been shot for voting for Bush ... I'm so evil...you are so right .

I should have been shot

And yes ...Bush is just like Hitler, I mean look at all the concentration camps we have in the USA, filled with hovens cooking ppl night and day hoping to once and for all erradicate all evil races... You are so amazingly right...

Most of you ppl that parrot Bush is the New Hitler, havent even read ONE book about Holocaust... aren't even OLD ENOUGH to know what the Holocaust was...

I fBush was like Hitler, you would not be typing here, you would be SERVING and the National Bush Youth.

unbelieveble.... and I'm the ignorant one.. well so be it.. I'd rather be ignorant than anything close to ......

[edit on 13-2-2006 by BaastetNoir]

Not my fault if you don't understand a metaphor. YOU started the mudslinging not him.

The originator of this thread made an amazingly immature statement that somehow sucked a lot of people into discussing this non-topic.

For one thing, it's is supremely naive to think that this is some kind of Good vs Evil struggle. Anybody who thinks that should be sent back to grade school. If an Islamic faction decided to punish the US for its intereference in the Middle East, it's just that. I wish the US prevails no matter what, but it's an affront to expect me believe that some kind of biblical Good vs Evil battle. It's not.

Then, what exactly Bush was right about? As we all know, there were no proven links between Al Qaeda and Saddam, and the WMD program was virtually non-existent, much less capable of producing a wepon that can be deployed "in 40 minutes". I personally hate being lied to, so I can't understand the originator of this thread who apparently loves this stuff.

In addition, you can read any number of sources now, and virtually all state that the capability of the US to wage war in Iran (which I don't advocate but which can nevertheless happen) is in fact diminshed due to extended and taxing job of occupying Iraq. So not only Bush was wrong on the pretext, he was also wrong on execution of the war.

To the poster who said the Islamic is planing the establishment of a Caliphate - yeah right. I know there is a hardcore faction in islam that wants it, but it's no more meaningful than a bunch of evangelistical crusaders here in the US who wants to spread the word of God everywhere on Earth.


[edit on 13-2-2006 by Aelita]

Originally posted by Blaine91555
MODERATOR
If this is not political bickering I do not know what is. I thought this was not alowed here???? Are you not around today??? These extremists are ruining this site!!!! Can't have an intelegent discussion with this kind of childish behavior going on.

now, now, we know the mods only care about pro-war, pro-bush etc type of political threads......oops, this one might get shut down after all.


bush was right.

this is going to make everyone mad, but who cares, few cna have an original political though in their head, other than what has been programmed inot them by the bbc.