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Project Serpo: Postings by "Anonymous" -- Breaking news?

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posted on Dec, 16 2005 @ 09:48 PM
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Physics different on different planets?

I don't know of any probes to Mars, the Moon, or other planets that seems to point out that there are different physics on different planets. I think we need to stick to what we know and make the Anon group prove to us why we should think otherwise. I don't think science has all the answers but if they can land a probe on Titan then I'll cut them some slack. The only planet I know that had different physics was Planet Hollywood, which thought serving mediocre food while staring at John Goodman's underwear hanging on the wall was worth $60.

One other thing that bothers me still is the time issue...How the hell do those EBENs quordinate with all of their planet if they don't measure time? I mean the reason we have time is that it creates a common denominator in which humans can measure changes together. When I say I'll meet you on May 2nd in Hawaii at 4pm local time...you know what I'm talking about all over the globe. How would a large global population be able to do this without "time"?




posted on Dec, 16 2005 @ 10:33 PM
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Well, we need time because we cannot telepathically communicate with one another. They can, and that would make time less needed. Besides, looking at their lives with "our" perspective just doesn't work. Here's an example; it's like asking "How can they aquire anyting if they don't have money?" Their culture is completely devoid of money. They work because they know they need to, not to support themselves. We spend most of our days and nights doing nothing but maintaining our bodies. We work for money for food and shelter. We seek love for comfort and peace. We eat to live. We sleep so we don't die of exhaustion. Our entire life is about keeping that "shell" alive to house our spirit.

They don't do that. They are evolved beyond that. What we ask, they know. What we seek, they have. What we need, they don't. Yes, they still eat, but there are even more evolved beings that have chlorophyll in their blood and don't need to eat. They absorb minerals through their skin and use photosynthesis to survive, which means it takes no effort to feed themselves. Talk about evolved!

I hear time and time again posters asking "human" questions about alien cultures. There is no human answer, just an answer, and for the majority of us, one that is misunderstood.

[edit on 12/16/2005 by sexymon]



posted on Dec, 16 2005 @ 10:54 PM
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Hello Everyone.

My name is Serpentime (Sorry, no relation...).

I've been following the "Project Serpo" posts since mid-November, and thought I might share might my impressions...

These are my thoughts only. Please feel free to correct:


1.) PHOTOS? JOURNAL ENTRIES?

While it would be very interesting if these four photos (and journal entries) actually do appear--and seem satisfactory/quality enought to debate--I seem to recall, also, that we've been waiting 30 years, since Emenegger, to see the Holloman Landing film. And I believe that Linda Howe is still waiting for her EBE-1 interview and transcript. If any of these things are real, I would love to see all of them, but I'm not going to hold my breath, either.


2.) WHY NOW?

It seems to me--IMHO--that 2005 has been a significant year, UFOlogically speaking. So why "Serpo"?

Some months back, Robert Collins was kind enough to answer a few of my questions about "Exempt from Disclosure". One question I wanted to pose to him, but didn't, was: "How do you think THE PEOPLE WHO MATTER will react to this book?" If the information inside was even HALF accurate, then someone in the right places would have HAD to become aware of it...

And THEN what would happen?


3.) "REQUEST ANONYMOUS" IS DIA?

Wasn't Mr. Doty's original deep-throat source (code-named "Falcon" by Bill Moore) a DIA colonel (Dale Graff)?

Didn't "The Roswell Incident" book beget us the MJ-12 documents?

Didn't Mr. Moore and Ms. Howe both draw the interest of counterintelligence elements because "You're the first person to get this right", or "Some people in Washington aren't too pleased with you"? (as Mr. Doty allegedly said.)

And didn't Timothy Good claim to have received HIS copy of the Eisenhower Briefing Document through a DIA source?

Question: Is "Project Serpo" the new "MJ-12"?


4.) COUNTERINTELLIGENCE?

If some of the material released in "Exempt from Disclosure" was sensitive enough to attract the attention of CI, wouldn't some measured response (Operation? "Project"?) be required? The parameters would be two-fold, I believe:

a.) Gain control (leverage) over the source(s).
If classified information were leaking--and the source(s) cannot be prosecuted for fear of legitimizing their claims--then those sources must be monitored closely (and targeted for dis-creditment), or else drowned out by static. (...MJ-12? ...Project Serpo?) In other words, a "Loose cannon" cannot be allowed to roll freely...

b.) "Poison the well".
By dumping out erroneous information alongside the good stuff, everyone is now forced to second guess (Serpo is HOT? I thought Mr. Doty said that Serpo was COLD? ...Up? ...Down? ...Left? ...Right? NOW who can I believe? Carl Sagan??? ...Why, that's impossible!) As we all know, and as CI knows: a dog chasing its own tail goes nowhere. And a UFO researcher chasing false leads will (hopefully) self-destruct...


5.) IS THIS REAL?

Every psychological warfare operation has a specific target. In my opinion, it might be "EFD" itself that is actually in the crosshairs. (The "WHY NOW?" part, above) Mr. Doty has already been lured into the spotlight on "C2C". In fact, "Anon' wished he (Doty) had said even more than he did...

...Should Serpo prove to be an exploding cigar, then whatever interest mssrs. Collins and Doty may have attracted to their revelations may go right up the chimney with it. Distracted by the Serpo affair, mainstream UFOlogy (and its public perception) could be set back by many years.

CSICOP would go crazy...

Do I think an actual disclosure would be expedited via an e-mail ring and a simple website? Regrettably, I tend to doubt it. Information warfare? More likely in my opinion. Trial balloon? Maybe.

And besides, what would those sharp minds at DIA think?


6.) WHO AM I TO SUGGEST THIS?

Absolutely no one. I would, in fact, be delighted if "Project Serpo" was an unlikely but amazing truth; In light of other information, the concept of a diplomatic laison with our visitors seems unremarkable, if not even keenly wise. But, then again, how much of any DIA sermon should we really be accepting as Gospel?

"Qui Bono?" as the intel people like to ask: "Who benefits?"


But then again, that's just me...


[edit on 16-12-2005 by Serpentime]



posted on Dec, 16 2005 @ 11:03 PM
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Very well thought out - who are you?



posted on Dec, 17 2005 @ 12:09 AM
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Qui Bono indeed. This is the question above all else that has my brain working overtime. Lots of possibilities, that's for sure. Are we really to trust these same people who have kept this, making the leap that this story is true, hidden from us all these years?

If we go down that avenue of suspending disbelief in regards to Serpo, there has to be an unfathomable amount of technology that could vault our planet to near utopia status. Looking at the Kardashev scale, we'd surely be higher than the pathetic -3 civilization, my interpretation of Earth, that we are now. I see no signs, clues, or vague hints, that such technologies are coming forth for public benefit. Unlike this supposed disclosure which has various sources attempting to propel it into public view.

Then again, I wonder if anyone with a loud enough voice would even bother to ask after a disclosure had taken place.

And that's just one tiny little path to go down when asking who benefits. The gravity of this whole thing so incredibly immense to just take it on good faith that some shadowy groups are spilling their guts because they have a guilty conscience. None the less, that too is a possibility...



posted on Dec, 17 2005 @ 02:27 AM
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Serpentime, I really enjoyed these excellent questions.

My two cents worth:

I too have read Collins' "Exempt from Disclosure" and was impressed. But if Anonymous et al had set out to retrospectively confuse EFD with disinformation, I rather think they'd have deliberately crafted the Serpo claim to be more immediately convincing; it could easily have been engineered to be a more seemingly credible planet (and visitor experience) which more people would have swallowed uncritically, hence doing a more effective job of "over-writing" the data in EFD.

Secondly, given the reputation of the DIA which you reference, I'd have thought that (again), Anonymous would have bolstered his claim by distancing himself from the DIA, not associating himself with them...

But it's an ingenious hypothesis and one which I'd not previously considered. So that's now no. 21 on my list!

Best wishes, Bill



posted on Dec, 17 2005 @ 03:12 AM
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Originally posted by Hydden
Mr Ryan,

Since you're now on the email list, could you possibly list a quick summary of some of the pro's and con's that are being discussed on there? I would never ask for names and specific quotes aren't necessary, but maybe a quick bullet-point list of some of the most interesting tidbits that are being thrown around for discussion?

Thanks!


Most of the really interesting comments have already been posted (or summarized) on the Comments, Questions and Answers, or Consistencies pages of the serpo.org website. More recently, those on the list have softened into patience, wondering if Anonymous has withdrawn permanently or temporarily.

The page that I've deliberately not included on the website, though, is Hypotheses. Some of the more interesting include:

- The account is a genuine confusion between two different exchange trips to two different planets (think about it: this would account for many anomalies);

- Anonymous is relying on fading 27-year old memory, with details blurred, omitted or altered inadvertently, and is only claiming to have access to the 3,000 page report because he's afraid he won't be taken seriously otherwise;

- Anonymous is reporting real events but being elderly is in the early stages of mild dementia (this was a real suggestion, and has theoretical validity);

- The events are real but when the original 3,000 page report was printed a team of half a dozen people went through it for a week altering and deleting details, to create an alternative report to be fed to a future whistleblower in anticipation of just such an situation as this;

- This is based on real events but contains disinformation, the false details of which will eventually totally sink the claim. Meanwhile, everyone is on the edge of their seats, and has been primed and prepared... for the REAL disclosure, which happens in the New Year, and which leaves the USG as heroes and Victor Martinez and myself as patsies (but, if it ends in real disclosure and this is a step along the way, I'm happy to play that role);

- The entire thing is a sociological experiment to see how credible (or skeptical) a group of experts are when faced with extraordinary claims;

- The entire thing is a clever way of ferretting out who knows the real information, and who doesn't;

- It's an internal loyalty test, to see who "comes out" when some extraordinary claims are made;

- It's all being done by a group of senior insiders simply as a joke (maybe for a $1,000 bet between them);

- It's all real, but Anonymous is not a scientist (or a very good report writer) and therefore is not doing the best job possible in presenting the information;

- The information is being unintentionally distorted by Victor Martinez, who is not a scientist;

- It's all exactly as it seems, and other worlds are really unbelievable places.

I'm not telling anybody which of these my money is on...

Best wishes, Bill



posted on Dec, 17 2005 @ 11:52 AM
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Physics different on different planets?


I don't think it's so much different planets as much as different parts of space; Hasn't anyone here heard of the Pioneer Anomaly? That alone implies that different locations of space may have slightly different physics... I did a quick google search and came up with these:

www.google.com...

Heck, the first sentence on the first article from Physicsweb is this:

"Since 1998 astronomers have known that the space probes Pioneer 10 and Pioneer 11 are following trajectories that cannot be explained by conventional physics."

You have got to open your minds to the idea that maybe, just MAYBE, we haven't got the whole thing figured out yet. We are still a relatively young race, and it's beyond hubris to think we know all the answers to our universe after a just few hundred years of relatively basic science.

Also the time issue. It's not that they don't use time, it's that they don't use time the way we do. I believe I read that they use some form of basic timing by following their suns. It was also stated that all Eben's have a communications device on their belts.. could it be that this is used to keep track of when it's time for someone to go to 'work' and other such things? Seems reasonable to me.
I've heard some here wonder how it's possible for them to figure out how to set a 'time' for the landing they did to pick up the exchange team, if they don't understand time the way we do. I could be wrong here, but perhaps they are advanced enough to translate OUR view of time to THIER view of time. It may seem wierd to them, but somehow I think they could figure it out, at the very least by tabulating our planets position relative to the sun and other planets.

Also, someone mentioned telepathic communication between Eben's... Bill correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe there was any mention of species telepathy.



posted on Dec, 17 2005 @ 12:08 PM
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The page that I've deliberately not included on the website, though, is Hypotheses. Some of the more interesting include:


One that I've considered is whether this is a disclosure "event" designed to draw attention away from Dan Burisch and his promise of disclosure. Let's go out on a limb and hypothesize that if Dan Burisch's story is accurate and will tell us of an impending distinction level event, a counter-intelligence disinformation campaign telling us that the "truth" is Serpo, as told be well-placed and "reputable" sources, then it will be easier to discredit Burisch's disclosure.

Longshot? I think so. Although I tend to agree with Bil Ryan's assessment of this hypothesis (see back a few pages in this thread), I also think it's possible that the disinformation campaign might be well-crafted enough to know that by not mentioning Burisch, they are making it appear as though his disclosure is not relevant and, therefore, being very, very subtle in the way it discredits Burisch -- why use a frontal assault when the whole idea of Project Serpo disclosure would tend to preclude all other conflicting stories out there (not just Burisch's).

By that same token, perhaps Serpo is just a general disinformation campaign to send us all down a dead-end path. That I think is extremely unlikey, unless someone is presently in possession of true and verifiable information that needs to be dealt with. In other words, there needs to have been some impetus to engage in a disinformation campaign.



posted on Dec, 17 2005 @ 12:13 PM
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"Since 1998 astronomers have known that the space probes Pioneer 10 and Pioneer 11 are following trajectories that cannot be explained by conventional physics."

You have got to open your minds to the idea that maybe, just MAYBE, we haven't got the whole thing figured out yet. We are still a relatively young race, and it's beyond hubris to think we know all the answers to our universe after a just few hundred years of relatively basic science.


To that end, there are things in our universe that we all know that we don't understand -- dark matter? Dark energy? The tremendous amount of mass within the universe that we can't account for?

Our society is learning new things so quickly, that it's unquestionable that we have no idea just how little we really know. Given that, I'm not going to question the physics of Serpo until we have access to some authentic data that, itself, purports to be accurate.

After all, if you're at least willing to entertain an iota of belief in extraterrestrial visitation, then you must entertain the idea that such extraterrestrials have the requisite level of technology to permit interstellar travel. That means that they have an knowledge and understanding of physics that we do not. Is it, therefore, scientifically disingenuous to apply our present understanding of the natural sciences as a means for discrediting that which, by assumption, we assume is beyond our understanding?

Centist



posted on Dec, 17 2005 @ 01:43 PM
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Hal9000, I'm still skeptical of the Serpo story as well. I'm by no means convinced anything in it is true. I need as much convincing and proof as any fair-minded skeptic. While I'm analyzing the content and asking my own questions, I find much in the story plausible and am willing to consider the possibilities. So for the purposes of our discussion, I preface my posts/comments with "If Serpo is true..."


Originally posted by Hal9000
Though you may think space travel is an "ancillary subject"(had to look that word up) it is a vital detail. If you can't travel FTL, or if you wind up in the future as many theorize, then this is a huge problem. If it is not possible, then every other part of the story is also untrue. It could be the aliens have figured out a way to do this. If so then explain how it is possible. If you told me a story about your trip to the moon, the first thing I would ask is how did you get there. If you can't tell me, guess what, I am not going to believe anything you say about the trip after that. But I do agree with you that space travel is a fascinating subject and I know we don't know it all, but for me this is obstruction #1. If Anon would explain it and physicists would agree it is possible, then we could move on.


I agree that having proof/plausible explanation for the Ebens FTL travel is a major factor for adding credibility. My point in saying that it's a parallel issue is that my interpretation of the Project Serpo report is that it's focus is on the exchange program from a cultural standpoint and may not even cover the nuts and bolts of FTL travel. I hope that subject is in there. After all, the team took measurements and recorded data about the physical make-up of the planets in the ZR system.

But I understand where you're coming from on this. If the report stated, "The Ebens travelled to Serpo on a space-proof hot air balloon..." I wouldn't be able to suspend my disbelief, to say the least. Or, "The Ebens starship resembles a British phone booth, but inside the spatial dimensions are quite larger."




Right, so to minimize the risk, what did we send up into orbit first? A monkey. Then the first manned space flight lasted a whole 15 minutes, the next a little longer. Eventually progressing till we reached the goal of the moon. We did not attempt to go to the moon on the first trip, until we were certain we had a good chance of making it. Now supposing the aliens already knew how to do this and told them it was safe. I still think they would have insisted on a few test runs


Great points. However, if star-faring aliens showed up and landed as the Ebens supposedly did, that at least demonstrates that space travel is safe for at least their life form. I am assuming our side would have asked, "Is space travel safe for all types of life forms aboard your ship? How is this possible?" Provided the Ebens gave a sufficient explanation and assurances to our exchange team and mission planners, I also agree it would be prudent to still take a few test runs. Though it wasn't mentioned, perhaps the Ebens did take a few humans on a few test runs on their ship before leaving for Serpo? Also, the story claims that the team members had some physical symptoms while on the way, so something bothered them.



If you’re referring to common sense, yeah that’s how I think. I am an engineer, and understand how things work. Even though I may not be as creative as some, I think I keep an open mind. I think it is a common mistake for creative people to overlook scientific facts. In a case like this, I am willing to listen, so that should show that I am open-minded. I am just playing devils advocate here, because I know these are the same questions real scientists would ask.


Sorry, I didn't mean to say that "I'm creative and you're not" if that's how you took it. I meant to say that I'm a right-brained/creative person moreso than left-brained, though I value and use practicality, common sense, logic and fact-based decision-making. For me the Serpo story is highly entertaining as is the discussion about it because I love sci-fi and can imagine the story to be possible. It's great fun to imagine life on other worlds, but I'd sure like to see some definitive, clear-cut proof. Serpo is far from that.



You may be a risk taker, but it’s different when your responsible for other peoples lives. I don't think those in charge would have allowed it without trial runs. Even with the competition of the Cold War that led to the space race, they still minimized risks.


The risks of inaction can be far greater than immediate action. According to the story, our team had 10 years + to plan, train and prepare. It may not be perfect risk mitigation but it sounds like they did the best they could. Two other considerations: the accounts of the EBE who was alive through 1952 and the Ebens that came to pick up the team are that they immediately were seen as docile, easygoing persons. The team took precautions with the liquid nitrogen defense, but their intuition told them that there would be no need. That these people are not hostile. Secondly, the 12 personnel were from the military. I believe the size of the team, their extensive training and military background contributed to team optimism and confidence.

We will hopefully see pages from the team members journals which can give us insight into their personal views of the risks and benefits of the mission. I'm willing to bet (if they ever show up that is) that the accounts will admit some fear and trepidation, but also confidence built from their training, having 12 team members as a support net, and the excitement that this is an opportunity of a lifetime.



This is true, it would be an excellent opportunity, but if it is too dangerous and those twelve people died, how much information would you get?


According to the story, 2 team members did die. Perhaps a few more could have died or had close-calls that we haven't heard about yet. Had they only sent 2, 4 or 6 people I believe the risks of no one coming back may have been greater. 12 people = strength in numbers. The story mentions that the 12 team members are all unmarried and have no immediate families. Aside from the informational control about this, I see this as an acknowledgement by the mission planners that the mission is unknown and may be dangerous and that some or all of them may not come back.

I would reconsider my point of view if the Ebens mentioned numerous hazards on Serpo and in their own society that routinely caused deaths among their own population. If the Ebens gave any indication that there were factors of absolute grave concern to their own people.



posted on Dec, 17 2005 @ 02:04 PM
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Bill Ryan,

Thanks for posting on ATS. I look forward to seeing the promised pictures/journal entries, too.

In regards to your point that Anonymous is an elderly man (which is something I suspected myself), do you know if anyone is helping him write/send his emails? I ask because his manner of describing things reminds me of how my grandfathers tell WW2 stories... and I seriously doubt that either of them could ever scan a photo or send it in a format that looks good onscreen.



posted on Dec, 17 2005 @ 03:12 PM
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To Shawnna:

Thank you for your compliment. I am a writer/researcher with an interest in policy, government, psychological strategy, and the Intelligence Community. UFOs interest me, too.


To Obscure:

"Qui Bono?" I think the Global Power Structure is benefiting from UFO secrecy. The great democratic philosopher Francis Bacon once suggested that "Knowledge is power", and, in this case, those who possess both prerogatives in our world would rather not part with either.

The other component is money. According to James Schlesinger, former Secretary of Defense and Director of Central Intelligence, Defense policy is derivative of Foreign policy. The dirty secret--that no one will ever tell you--is that Foreign policy is always derivative of Economic policy.

Economists refer to unpredictable market disruptions as "Exogenous Shock", and that is exactly what the Global Power Brokers do not want to see happen to their carefully cultivated Global Economy.

The aristocrats and investment bankers who craft our national policy are doing us all a favor, or so they believe.

"Qui Bono?", was a favorite saying of Lieutenant General Daniel Graham, former Director of the Defense Intelligence Agency. General Graham was a good friend of Dr. Edward Teller, and together with him, co-author of the Reagan-era Strategic Defense Initiative (SDI) doctrine. He was a Defense Policy advisor to the first Reagan campaign and was the first person to suggest a space-based defense system to the future president.

When General Graham, and others, would ask "Qui Bono?", they were refering to the foundations of a specific Intelligence problem. In other words, the 'Who', 'What' , 'When', 'Where', and 'Why', of a given proposition--particularly the 'Why?'.

If an Intel problem presents in an unusual way, then the underlying logic must be completely understood: If that logic subsequently fails or is not readily apparent, then the proposition must be rejected (or reckoned in some other context).

What is the logic behind disclosing "Project Serpo" at this time? I don't know. That's why I hesitate. It may be logical for old men to want to "dish" before they shuffle off this mortal coil, but logic, to me, seems more complicated in this specialized environment.

In my opinion, If I see the beginnings of any logic here, it traces back to the release of "Exempt from Disclosure" in April. Now, six months later, we get "Serpo".

What this means, I am unsure. But here's another old intelligence saying: "If you don't believe in coincidences, you don't belong in Intelligence."



To Mr. Ryan:

Thank you for your comments. I'm very glad to hear from you.

Again, all I can say is that I hope I am totally wrong... In principle, the Serpo story is quite fascinating, and I would not be interested in it if I did not feel that there might be something to learn here. The question to me is, exactly what?

As I just commented to Obscure, the logic of a genuine disclosure is still eluding me. I have read your review of "EFD" and will agree with you that disinformation is, indeed, rife. ...Is "Serpo" truth, or is it just the latest mechanism to muddy the waters, as you say?

As for me, I don't know... But given the historical parallels which are available for review--and the nature of the alleged sources--I must remind myself to be cautious. If there ARE things to be learned here, then that may be a tremendous gift for everyone; just keep in mind that ulterior motives are just as likely to be woven into such a strange manner of fabric.

Let the buyer beware...

"Serpo" is meant to appear to us as a tasty dish... but does it come with Strawberry Ice Cream on top, too?



My fingers are crossed, but again, this is just me...

[edit on 17-12-2005 by Serpentime]



posted on Dec, 17 2005 @ 03:26 PM
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From the link provided by Centrist: Jack Sarfatti


Another false physics claim is that it took nearly 2 years of proper time in the alien ship back & forth, that they stayed more than 10 years
and came back in about 13 years or so. The time dilation factor would have been at least 50 so that they would not even get there yet according to our clocks and they could not return until the end of the 21st Century. Alternatively if they had geodesic warp drive without time dilation they would not need 2 years shipboard proper travel time.


I thought this was a very interesting point. Even in the most theoretical FTL stuff i know off, there's no reason dilation would be sidestepped. Although i guess if you're violating relativity maybe dilation is moot... i don't know.


(the extra dimensional ideas (m-theory) have you travelling to an alternate universe and so it wouldn't have you returning to your original to tell the story)

oh dear i've just gone cross-eyed



posted on Dec, 17 2005 @ 04:07 PM
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Ok this might be a little off topic but I'll post just for reference.

I'm glad everyone is doing the research into this story, although personally I'm goning to stay on the "Hoax" side of the fence until I see the images.

Which brings me to this. There is some debate as to what the images should and might look like if they are ever actually posted. I found this image on the NASA website, that is dated 1962.

www.nasa.gov...

When I first glanced at the image I thought it was current, at least within the last few years, then I noticed the older equipment. Anyway my point is the camera they supposedly took the images of Serpo with should have at least matched this image in quality. The Serpo trip is said to have taken place in 1965 so they should have actually had cameras at least 3 years more advanced than this.

Of course there are factors invloved, like the radiation from Serpo and the traveling wear and tear on the images. But I think if we get images that don't contain at least a comparable amount of detail to this image, we should be pretty skeptical.

[edit: update]
Below is the link to an image taken in space in 1965, just another reference of what the image quality might have looked like.
(NOTE: click the Full Res image to see more detail, but 56kers beware, its huge)
www.nasa.gov...

[edit on 17-12-2005 by futureafter]



posted on Dec, 17 2005 @ 04:11 PM
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Originally posted by enhancedesign
Hal9000, I'm still skeptical of the Serpo story as well. I'm by no means convinced anything in it is true. I need as much convincing and proof as any fair-minded skeptic. While I'm analyzing the content and asking my own questions, I find much in the story plausible and am willing to consider the possibilities. So for the purposes of our discussion, I preface my posts/comments with "If Serpo is true..."

All right, so for the purpose of debate, we will assume its possible.



I agree that having proof/plausible explanation for the Ebens FTL travel is a major factor for adding credibility. My point in saying that it's a parallel issue is that my interpretation of the Project Serpo report is that it's focus is on the exchange program from a cultural standpoint and may not even cover the nuts and bolts of FTL travel. I hope that subject is in there. After all, the team took measurements and recorded data about the physical make-up of the planets in the ZR system.

But I understand where you're coming from on this. If the report stated, "The Ebens travelled to Serpo on a space-proof hot air balloon..." I wouldn't be able to suspend my disbelief, to say the least. Or, "The Ebens starship resembles a British phone booth, but inside the spatial dimensions are quite larger."

First of all, I have to think that the Ebens or more generally any UFO’s are capable of interstellar space travel, because I believe we are being visited. The evidence is overwhelming. But in order to make the claim that we are being visited by extraterrestrials, and stand up to the skeptics, you will first have to prove that is possible. I have seen many debates, and the first item that a skeptic will bring up, is that interstellar space travel is impossible given the distances involved. So this is why I bring it up, that if this or any case is to be taken seriously, it must be addressed.

I went back to re-read what Anon said, and he did say he would provide 100 key pages of data to scientists, and maybe this would be covered. It could be that it is too technical and would detract from the story, so maybe it is better to leave it out for now. If the story is true, and it is proven that interstellar travel is possible (which would be cool), I think this is when most people would start taking this story seriously.



I also agree it would be prudent to still take a few test runs. Though it wasn't mentioned, perhaps the Ebens did take a few humans on a few test runs on their ship before leaving for Serpo? Also, the story claims that the team members had some physical symptoms while on the way, so something bothered them.

Well that would cover whether they would survive the trip or not, but there are other risks. Even in the SOM1-01 operations manual that is posted on the Consistencies page, they describe the hazards of handling EBE’s. Think of all the biological hazards from an alien planet, like bacteria and germs. Humans would have no immunity to them at all. Maybe it is possible to be inoculated to build up immunity, but Anon doesn’t mention it. He did go into the preparations and training somewhat extensively, but nothing about biological hazards.



For me the Serpo story is highly entertaining as is the discussion about it because I love sci-fi and can imagine the story to be possible. It's great fun to imagine life on other worlds, but I'd sure like to see some definitive, clear-cut proof. Serpo is far from that.

I agree it is fun to entertain the thought of life on other worlds. I think it is even more fun to play detective and try to determine if there is any truth to some of these stories. As I said before, I think there could be something to this, otherwise why would anyone go to the trouble of conducting a disinformation campaign, like Richard Doty did back in the 80’s? But in order to determine fact from fiction, it is good to take the strategy of the skeptics and if it holds up to those arguments, then you can start to use the information to solve the mystery.



The risks of inaction can be far greater than immediate action. According to the story, our team had 10 years + to plan, train and prepare.

No, I believe they agreed to the exchange, and then trained for six months, before the meeting. But this is a minor detail.



It may not be perfect risk mitigation but it sounds like they did the best they could. Two other considerations: the accounts of the EBE who was alive through 1952 and the Ebens that came to pick up the team are that they immediately were seen as docile, easygoing persons. The team took precautions with the liquid nitrogen defense, but their intuition told them that there would be no need. That these people are not hostile. Secondly, the 12 personnel were from the military. I believe the size of the team, their extensive training and military background contributed to team optimism and confidence.

I’m not just talking about risks just from the Ebens. My first concern would be with space travel. I will use the analogy of the space program again. There are so many things that have to happen to keep a human alive in space that would have to be addressed before allowing it. Then there is the biological risk that I mentioned before. Then if they do go, what is the risk they bring something back that would cause a pandemic? These are serious risks, and more obstacles to overcome. Though you might quickly jump at the opportunity, it would be more wise to take the time to determine how safe it is.



We will hopefully see pages from the team members journals which can give us insight into their personal views of the risks and benefits of the mission. I'm willing to bet (if they ever show up that is) that the accounts will admit some fear and trepidation, but also confidence built from their training, having 12 team members as a support net, and the excitement that this is an opportunity of a lifetime.

I'm sure there were people willing to risk their lives to do this. Our astronauts go through grueling training just for a chance to go into orbit. But if we let them make the decisions, something tells me it would have been disastrous. During the space race, the concern was more about public perception I think than risking the life of the astronauts. If they were killed, the public would no longer want to fund the space program. Maybe this project was different because the public was unaware of it.



The story mentions that the 12 team members are all unmarried and have no immediate families. Aside from the informational control about this, I see this as an acknowledgement by the mission planners that the mission is unknown and may be dangerous and that some or all of them may not come back.

I think the reason for this was so that no one would notice they were missing, and would negate the skeptics argument that there is no record of these people.



I would reconsider my point of view if the Ebens mentioned numerous hazards on Serpo and in their own society that routinely caused deaths among their own population. If the Ebens gave any indication that there were factors of absolute grave concern to their own people.

Even if you trusted them completely, how would you know of the hazards that even they don’t think of? We like to think as humans that we can survive anything, and in the movies we do, but when it comes to space travel and living on other planets, the reality is that there is a very narrow margin that we can survive in.

Here is a new discrepancy I came across while re-reading the descriptions of the Ebens.


by Anonymous on Serpo.org Post #4
The Eben civilization was estimated to be about 10,000 years old. They evolved from another planet, not on Serpo. The original home planet of the Ebens was threatened with extreme volcanic activity. The Ebens had to relocate to Serpo in order to protect their civilization. This occurred some 5,000 years ago.

The Ebens had a great interplanetary battle with another race about 3,000 years ago. The Ebens lost many thousands in their battle. The Ebens completely eliminated all of their enemies. The Ebens have never fought another war since. The Ebens have been space travelers for the past 2,000 years. The Ebens first visited Earth about 2,000 years ago.

How is it that they move to another planet 5,000 years ago, and fight a interplanetary war 3,000 years ago, but have only been space travelers for 2,000 years?

Anyone want to tackle this one?


I know it is probably a typo, but then how many more typos are there?



posted on Dec, 17 2005 @ 04:45 PM
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How is it that they move to another planet 5,000 years ago, and fight a interplanetary war 3,000 years ago, but have only been space travelers for 2,000 years?

Anyone want to tackle this one?

I know it is probably a typo, but then how many more typos are there?


I suspect that, if this is based on authentic information, is that the Ebens have had the capability to traverse interstellar distances for 2,000 years. They may have moved amongst planets and fought a battle with a civilization within their own solar system prior to that.

This idea raises a few additional points, as well. Imagine the heightened urgency with which a society would tackle the barriers associated with i travel within their own solar system, if they detected another inhabited planet within it. Imagine the effort our own society would put forth, if Mars were inhabited by a technologically advanced civilization! If Mars were inhabited by such a society, we would already be aware of it and in contact with its residents.

Is it possible that due to the enormous differences between our societies that prejudices between races arose? (just like race riots here on earth) Thereafter, isn't it possible that over thousands of years the societies maintained an uneasy peace, as each competed to become more dominant -- in fact, wouldn't it be necessary for one society to eliminate the other in order to evolve from a Type I to a Type II civilization, in order to harness the requisite recources available in their system to make that jump?

Likely? I don't know. Plausible? At least on the surface. So, until we know more from Anonymous, we can only guess.

Centrist



posted on Dec, 17 2005 @ 04:58 PM
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Originally posted by Hal9000



by Anonymous on Serpo.org Post #4
The Eben civilization was estimated to be about 10,000 years old. They evolved from another planet, not on Serpo. The original home planet of the Ebens was threatened with extreme volcanic activity. The Ebens had to relocate to Serpo in order to protect their civilization. This occurred some 5,000 years ago.

The Ebens had a great interplanetary battle with another race about 3,000 years ago. The Ebens lost many thousands in their battle. The Ebens completely eliminated all of their enemies. The Ebens have never fought another war since. The Ebens have been space travelers for the past 2,000 years. The Ebens first visited Earth about 2,000 years ago.

How is it that they move to another planet 5,000 years ago, and fight a interplanetary war 3,000 years ago, but have only been space travelers for 2,000 years?

Anyone want to tackle this one?


I know it is probably a typo, but then how many more typos are there?


(sarcasm on) Well this is a simple explanation. They don't use our "time" so they can pretty much jump around with dates and years. When they were on their original planet the physics were different and time was measured, but once they got to Serpo they uh, made up some new physics and time so that they could mess with people's heads on Earth. (sarcasm off)

Good find HAL9000...I suggest you forward that to the consistencies page on Bill's website.

Hemetae...I hear you on the Pioneer anomaly. I know what you are saying, and no science doesn't have it all figured out. But until we can travel to another solar system then I have to stick with what I know. Sure, maybe there are different amounts of dark matter or dark energy that surrounds another solar system thus causing a different type of push/pull on visible matter. I can buy that as a possibility...maybe our sun and planets overides dark matter/energy only so far before the solar cocoon's affect is lessened. I'm no expert on any of that, just guesswork.

Your right on the telepathy...I didn't read that either. They communicated by tonal language. And I guess I don't see how even if they were telepathic how that eliminates time. Isn't telepathy still a form of communication...can't we do with phones nearly the same thing with our global cell networks.

I swear my friend is full time cellapathic, he's got that phone glued to his ear nearly 24/7.



posted on Dec, 17 2005 @ 05:11 PM
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First of all when you work for the government or are in the government forces you are held under the secrecy act.

Also, to post from an internet cafe, or library, you can be hard to trace.

It doesn't surprise me that if somebody is in the know that they would want to remain anonymous.

They may have family that they want to protect, but at the same time want to get the truth out.



posted on Dec, 17 2005 @ 05:53 PM
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Yes, the time line about how old the race is, and how long they have been travelling through space doesn't add up to me; but again, I'm only a human being, not an alien from another part of the galaxy and it would be pretty silly for me to start making assumptions based on that.
We couldn't be more isolated if we tried, and the Ebens are at least dealing with nine other races... if it's all true. I think the 10,000 year thing may be a bit mis-leading. Maybe they've just been on Serpo for 10,000 yrs.. ? supposedly they came from another planet, right?
I don't know how we can reconcile the 'YellowBook' account of the Ebens only been star-farring for 2,000 yrs, but also sending human-like entities here to change our civilization 2,000 yrs ago as well (the whole Jesus being an Eben thing).
Again, I'm only a human on an isolated planet, but it's hard to fathom that they've only been travelling between stars for 2,000yrs, and at the same time they are drastically changing the civilization of a distant planet. The only way that seems possible is that they were working with a much older civilization... one that is far more evolved than even the Ebens

Hhhmmmm.....



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