Sorry Think2much, it was you I was responding to. Got distracted talking, typeing, cooking, trying to stop the kid steal the p.c. before their time and 'a bit of a bug' has had me awake for near 2 1/2 days. Thanks for being one of those keeping my mind off feeling blaahhh!

[edit on 27-11-2005 by suzy ryan]

Do you all think or assert to the common theory that masons(Free and speculative masons) or whatever masonic society has a hand in controlling the masses of people today? Personally, I think, that their control is somewhat limited today. thoughts?

Masonic orders, (to which I do not belong), tend recruit people recognized as leaders in their communities. I don't believe the Masons are attempting to control anything. I think Masons are made up of people who are already leaders and their membership fosters increased leadership ability. Leaders tend to obtain positions of power - that's as natural as water flowing downhill. So, I think most people have got it backwards when they try to assert that the Masons are trying to have the power - it's the powerful that tend to be drawn to other powerful people and one of the many places you you find these people is in Masonic orders.

I don't know the names of the organizations that seek to recruit the weak, lazy, and the "losers" - maybe there are some.

I don't know the names of the organizations that seek to recruit the weak, lazy, and the "losers" - maybe there are some

OMGosh AL- ROFLMFAO!

I'm sorry but that is truly funny. I have a love for the often overlooked obvious. Thanks, I needed that today.

That puts it into perspective for me and I'd be inclined to agree...not knowing much about those orders it would be logical to me, from what I do know that you're theroy is very likely the case that they recruit the powerful, but in becoming an order unto themselves, can not a new agenda arise?

Don't they as the powerful people of position have something in common and common interests then? So wouldn't a certain desire to control, and make use of their power and positions eventaually have to be an obvious area for them to explore even if it was not the original intention of their organization from the begining?

Suzy-so sorry you've been under and feeling blahhh-hope you are feeling better soon!

[edit on 27-11-2005 by think2much]

Originally posted by Al Davison
I think Masons... fosters increased leadership ability.

I don't know anything about your masonic orders, and I don't intend to say anything unwarranted. However, "leadership skills" does sound like a eumpehmism for learning how to manipulate people.

Originally posted by AdamJ
well what alot of this seems to be about is image.

The image you present of your group or party.

Very often when there are 'Anarchists' out demonstrating, I know what the paper and magazine front pages will look like over the next few days.

Whether there really was much trouble or not, or whether they were really anarchists or not or whether it was the anarchists who started it or not.
None of those things matter.
Most of the healines will be something along the lines of 'Anarchists clash with police' or 'Anarchists trash city center'

The point is too make them conform to a sterotype. Anarchists sterotype is that they are not very clever or civilized and are often violent and disrespectful. That implies their opinions are wrong

Groups is how you control people. 'control and divide' backwards or 'order out of chaos.' Google 'psychology ingroups out groups'

Seperate people into a group, even false groups like nationality that really are meaningless. You have two groups of people. They do not necessaraly hate each other. Now psychology experiments reveal that bias towards either group creates the opposite effect in the other group.
For example, loving your country automaticaly creates a hatred for those which are not your country. Even if you dont say that, it creates a bias by loving the first group.
So you can program people through their emotions to love or hate others, either by teling them to love those they belong to or by telling them to hate those they dont belong to, either is just as good.

So in WW2, "people in the british group, Love your country', 'serve your country" etc.
At the same time as telling them to hate the other lot, the 'Huns' those evil do'ers, the axis of evil and hatred.
Double whammy, very effective. You cant do it if the groups dont exist in the first place. Divide and control.

Anyway, image is everything in our society. Well almost everything.

YOU SO ROCK! I copied and pasted that, and read your post. And I caught on to how the same technique has been used for marketing. When BSB was big in '97-01, Johnny Wright & Lou Pearlman were telling their employees to write something like "Support BSB" "KTBSPA"(Keep The Backstreet Pride Alive), and "Keep BSB #1". He did the same with NSYNC, so then you have girls having "Wars" over their favorite groups, and MTV taking in the ratings like crazy. The same happens with supermarket products all the time "Love Cheez Its", "Love Eggo Waffles", "Pop Tarts are Crazy Good(imply one should "love them"), etc. Thanks.

Through because of my age, that's the best I could do thanks for pointing out political matters!

Originally posted by crontab

Originally posted by Al Davison
I think Masons... fosters increased leadership ability.

I don't know anything about your masonic orders, and I don't intend to say anything unwarranted. However, "leadership skills" does sound like a eumpehmism for learning how to manipulate people.

Sounds like it because it is. Anyone who's "survived" a business "skills trainning course" with a sound mind and body knows this.

Rather than teach you "skills" they search out who has the "skill" to be a "pitbull" and leave the others in no doubt of what happens to "naughty", "dumb bunnies".

They don't become masons? Or are they brainwashed to be subordinate to someone else and have them do the "thinking" for the group?

Masons, intresting, alot of f the hogwash that come out of these society nonsense don't really make sense. Alot of the so called claimed powers of the masons probably dion't happen as often before, although they still do happen and very concern, i was browsing a recent book on Masonic lodges throughout the world, can't remebr the name of the book, anyone have an idea what I am talking about?

Well yes, is a captain is a "leader" but part of the skill of being an effective leader is carrying out the orders of your superior officers.

Flat management structure is a crock that deflects blame and consequence from the "leaders" to the "dumb bunnies".

One of skills a leader needs, is the ability to difflect, divert and reasign blame for their own mistakes or else they won't be trusted enough for their underlings to follow future orders and other associated businesses to keep trading with them.

This is a fact of business masons don't want to acknowledge when they praise themselves for "teaching" "leadership skills".

Originally posted by crusader
Masons, intresting, alot of f the hogwash that come out of these society nonsense don't really make sense. Alot of the so called claimed powers of the masons probably dion't happen as often before, although they still do happen and very concern, i was browsing a recent book on Masonic lodges throughout the world, can't remebr the name of the book, anyone have an idea what I am talking about?

Yes, "The Rights and Symbols of The Masons", They sell it at Half-Priced Books now in the "religion" section now. It has a world-wide index in the back.

Wow! Sorry that some of you have had such bad experiences but, I've been teaching leadership and other soft skills for years. I've also been managing and leading and, recently, teaching management.

Certainly I've heard some of these jaded opinions before but, they don't bother me. I have had tremendous successes with a few folks with whom I've kept in touch - they've gone on to do great things in their communities and businesses. But, with this kind of training, you just know that the majority are going to do nothing and spend time complaining that the training wasn't worth anything. That's fine. Leadership demands a level of effort so, folks who don't put forth the effort are most certainly going to fail. You can call them "dumb bunnies" if you want - I find that term offensive.

Is leadership training all about learning how to control or manipulate folks? - on the surface, it probably is. Of course, so is management. I consider management to be the poor crutch that people use if they don't have leadership skills. But, leadership is mostly about finding out what others want out of the situation and trying to craft a "something" that gets the individuals some of what they want while getting the whole organization most of what they want. It ain't easy and it doesn't come naturally to most people. The thing about real leadership is that this idea of "manipulation" really is not part of it because real leadership takes a long-term view and manipulation will, usually, only work for a very short time.

OK, I didn't mean to go on-and-on but, I was just kinda surprised at the reaction to the idea that leaders are attracted to other leaders and that leadership is a skill that one can learn.

However, "leadership skills" does sound like a eumpehmism for learning how to manipulate people

Maybe masonic orders are seen as manipulative-I don't know much about them, but otherwise on the topic of leadership and manipulation I'd have to take exception here as I've been trained and have trained others in leadership, and while sometimes it does include some "manipluation" if you want to call it that, I don't think of it as an exclusively derogatory term.

To manipulate does not always mean to control, nor to control by unfair means or for unfair results. It can also mean quite literally to handle skillfully.

Often people need some direction, motivation and " skillful handling" so that a goal can be pursued and achieved.

All you need to see is cases like have been discussed here in negative light to know there is NEED for good leadership.

In my military and civilian poisitons as well as my role as a parent I've been in leadership roles and taught others how to develop leadership quaities and how to motivate people to meet goals by showing them the direct benefit to them in so doing, by sometimes manipulating them (skillful handling) and by example

Leadership by example being my favorite integrity/accountability driven role of all.

But even just as head of my family...I must sometimes manipulate...but I am not trying to control my children, especially not by unfair means or unfair purpose or teach them to follow blindly or not to think...

... in contrast I am trying to skillfully lead them to learn to think for themselves, while still achieving the end result I desire... that they do what is best/right/beneficial but that they do it by realizing it is what needs to be done and why for themselves. It's an art

Maybe I don't express it well and I am sure many of you would think I would be the blind leading the blind as I seem niether intelligent nor articualte-certainly not in comparrsion to most of you, but I assure you I haven't always been so seeminlgy simple even if I was a "punk" in the 80's haha...but thanks to the likes of GW1 I have a been a bit on the declining side mentally for 15 years now. (kids don't help either-those grey hairs are dead brain cells in my case!) so just bear with me-at least I have the guts to try to express myself still, right?

But this masonic seems to be a control for most people, i don't know what u think? but isn't it more than a coincidence that these societies happen to get to be a president every 4 years? Look at the last election: Choose between 2 masonic Members: bush Or Kerry< the same lesser of 2 evils trick

You're on to something here for which many people do not want to go into in any depth. It must remain in the dark. Never in the Light..this is how much of control works...the control for which some in here are speaking.
Is all control bad..or manipuliation as some like ..think2much ..states. No it is not. It is the intent which distinguishes the type and motivation or the manipulation or control.
It is when you put the ...Light...on it that it becomes plain and visible as to motives.
Also Crusader..if you know the pattern in which some things work...you will be able to distinguish the difference in the lights...one light and the other Light. This is what most of the world system doesnt want you to know. It will not educate you in this arena.
The light ..comes in a multitude of different varietys and methods...many guises...many ever changing techniques.
The Light comes in only one.

These are the two methods of control...from the times of the ancients. They are in struggle against each other unto this day.
Its up to you to catch on...for the world and the worlds techniques/methods will not teach you of them. They are spiritually discerned...both light and Light are spiritually discerned.

So..Crusader...

Are we ...traveling... twords the light or

Are we ...walking..in the Light.??

Which spirit do we walk in Crusader...the spirit or the Spirit???


Thanks,
Orangetom

Al, you've been teaching something that can't be learned???? Do you do this for free? Anyway, the 'facilitaters' I respect (for their honesty) are those who admit the industry is a crock but they have to pay their mortgage and it pays well.

I'm sorry if "dumb bunnies" offended you but in a land where calling someone "an illigitimate child" (I won't offend with the 'B' word) is a term of endearment, "dumb bunnies" is a humourous way of saying lazy, stupid, 'haven't got a clue', time and life wasters, which I find offensive but many Americans throw around freely.

Think2much, don't think the posters here aren't aware of the legitimate need for leaders and training but they are field specific. Children and new employees etc. need to be trained but someone skilled at leading a class of 5 y.o.'s through their first year of school isn't likely to be the person to lead soldiers into battle.

The problem with fraternal and industry methods and justifications for 'teaching leadership skills' is that people are often taught to behave in ways contrary to their natural moral code because they're the most effective ways to 'maintain control' and 'reach YOUR goals'. For instance one of the ways to lead a business to success is too squeeze exessive hours and unquestioning obedience out of employees, that harm their homelife, by implying each may loose their job to the other when infact both jobs are safe.

[edit on 28-11-2005 by suzy ryan]

Suzy,

Actually, I do believe that leadership can be learned. I may be a hopeless optimist but I think anyone and everyone can be a leader - depending upon the situation. I don't think we can all be the kinds of world-changing, great and powerful leaders that people write books about but, that's not "my world" anyway. Leadership is kinda like creativity and/or athletics - different people have different levels of talent but everybody can get better with practice. I'm never going to be POTUS and I'm never going to play in the NBA but, I can lead people and I can hit about half of my freethrows. If I practice more, I can get better at both.

I teach community leadership, primarily on a volunteer basis. I teach business leadership from time-to-time as an adjunct professor. It's a learned skill but some have inate talent and others don't. I'm not terribly charismatic but, by understanding that as a weakness, I can use something else that is a strength. My best strength is encouraging people who are a lot smarter and more talented than me so, I like teaching and coaching.

What others have said is true of leadership and a lot of other things - you can use your "powers" for good or for evil. Some people do use their leadership skills for nefarious purposes - no doubt! I think a lot more people use them for what they perceive as "good" but, that doesn't make a lot of newspaper headlines.

Yes Al, I agree that one of the most important skills a leader needs is knowing when to graciously defere to one better skilled at the task at hand. This is a hard thing to teach to someone who is ego driven. The problem with the industries that promise to teach leadership skills is that they often attract the ego driven so for them the more manipulative, dishonest 'tricks' take precedent over things like leading by example.

If you refere to my edit in the post above I think you'll see that I understand that, "to everything there is a season and purpose". My original post on this subject was responding to the aspect of manipulation and "control", the topic of the thread, alot of which is perpetuated through those who promise to teach leadership skills.

Originally posted by ANOK

Originally posted by SimJazz
The way to control someone is through emotion. If you can control someone's emotions then you're home free.

Exactly, and what is our most easily manipualted emotion? Fear.

All they need to control us is to have us in fear. Fear of criminals, fear of drugs, fear of poverty, fear of ridecule, fear of loneliness, fear of terrorism, terrorism of fear, fear of fear.

Out of fear comes blind patriotism; adulation of your so called "saviour" (government/worship the beast), war, racism, ignorance, apathy, hate, control.
Just the way the elite want it.

True, fear is the easiest emotion to tap into but hope or faith can be just as powerful-- if you can successfully 'sell' hopes and dreams then you could probably rule the world--fear can't sustain by itself but a mixture of both hope and fear can be very powerful--I thought about experimenting on someone once but I couldn't find someone that I loathed enough to try to control--after all, you don't try to control equals just those you find inferior and I didn't have those feelings for anyone.