Chemtrails / EM

Originally posted by defcon5

Originally posted by invisibleplane
do these things work!?

What possible science is there to sticking PVC poles in the ground that would affect something in the atmosphere? This is someone taking advantage of those that are gullible enough to believe in chemtrails to begin with.

Snake Oil salesmen...

fair enough opinion...and I'm relieved at the idea of chemtrails not existing, but have you tried it yourself? I'm asking for people who have had experiences with it to help determine its credibility(even on clouds, I miss the sun)

on related note..what do you think of the human ability to control weather..whether through mass meditation or things like rain dances...manipulation of this energy seems to have occured...since a lot on that site also includes being able to control this 'orgone' energy yourself, though limited, or even asking air elementals(sylphs), sure makes me think...gonna have to try it all for myself, until then..lets hear more experiences/opinions

Originally posted by defcon5
[those that are gullible enough to believe in chemtrails to begin with.

A lot of people have learned about chemtrails from the Internet, and I am sure there are those that would not understand what is actually happening when a contrail is beibg formed, read about chemtrails on the net.

To assume all that everyone who is aware of chemtrails learned about the phenomenom from others is to be gullible yourself.

Well, we humans seem to be changing the weather, but outside of cloud seeding and some of the recent experimental work with aerogels, I'd hardly call what we're doing as 'control'.

Much has been made of the US military having a goal of 'owning the weather' by 2020, Bu I tend to think it's more of a optimizing military operations im all kinds of weather conditions rather than making it rain on the bad guys.

Good evening OTS, you working the night shift and Howard is working days?

Hey, gunnie, fighting ignorance is a 24-7 job!

Someday when the truth finally is known, I will be able to finally quit posting here and go back to flying chem-planes ...

NO!! WAIT!!! I meant ... uh ... frying pancakes.

Yeah! that's the trick! i can go back to frying pancakes!!

[edit on 10-1-2006 by Off_The_Street]

Originally posted by LoneGunMan
To assume all that everyone who is aware of chemtrails learned about the phenomenom from others is to be gullible yourself.

When I find CRAP (I wish I could use a stronger word then this, but…) like this: Did An Airline Mechanic Stumble Upon The Truth?, and I used to work for the airlines as a ramp supervisor, then words such as “gullible” are EXTREAMLY generious. I really should use stronger words, but unfortuantly I enjoy this site too much…

Let me baseline it for you, its Bullpucky, plain and simple. If you want to go buy some set of Hoodoo Poles and set it up in your lawn to magically protect you from the evil spirits of the sky, then go for it. When you realize that you just got taken for a bunch of money, then consider yourself to have been quite thoroughly warned.

The only liquids that are pumped into a commercial aircraft are: Blue Water, Water, and Fuel. The fuel is obviously burned as the plane moves, the Blue Toilet water is in a closed system that is emptied and dumped at the airport, and the water is used in the sinks and to make beverages. The only liquid that leaves the aircraft in flight is the water, through a heated mast. Blue water sometimes seeps some if the doughnut is not properly installed on the ramp, and the fuel may sometimes be vented if overfull or in the case of having to lose weight in an emergency.

There is no grand conspiracy involved with this. There are too many people involved to hide it if there were, it would take up too much storage space, and way too much infrastructure to ship it around. The men that maintain the blue water system are normal cabin service ramp agents, not MIB's, and they fall under the authority of the ramp lead agent and supervisor. Do you have any idea the type of space and weight that would be involved with putting that kind of liquid in the plane? The plane would have to have the liquid storage of a tanker aircraft, and that is not happening on commercial flights. Where would they be storing it before pumping it on the aircraft? How is it getting to the storage area? What equipment is pumping it on the plane?

Hell, you can buy a ticket on a flight and watch what is being pumped on the plane with your own eyes. You will see three pieces of equipment:

The Lavatory Truck:


The Potable Water Truck:


The Fuel Truck (Hydrant System):


The Fuel Truck (Tanker System):


The only other vehicles that may appear to be connected in a manner to pump anything are:

Ground Power Units: (Electricity)


Air Conditioning Units:


Jet Start Units: (Starts engine in APU out aircraft)


Pics from here: www.houstonaircraft.net...

This stuff is BS plain and simple, guys making money off the gullible.
End of the subject…



[edit on 1/10/2006 by defcon5]

Originally posted by invisibleplane
on related note..what do you think of the human ability to control weather..whether through mass meditation or things like rain dances...manipulation of this energy seems to have occured...since a lot on that site also includes being able to control this 'orgone' energy yourself, though limited, or even asking air elementals(sylphs), sure makes me think...gonna have to try it all for myself, until then..lets hear more experiences/opinions

That is heading into a whole can of worms that we should not head into, me being religious and all. Could a man, yeah I suppose through a higher authority, if it’s that authorities will. If it’s not his will, then I don’t think that man can do a thing to change it. That is about all I am going to head off in that direction.

Originally posted by Off_The_Street
I'd hardly call what we're doing as 'control'.

I will be able to finally quit posting here and go back to flying chem-planes ...

NO!! WAIT!!! I meant ... uh ... frying pancakes.

Man you are killing me…
How many gallons you want today, sir?
I mean of the special syrup, for your pancakes…
*puts on a pair of black sun glasses*
See you on the ramp…

Originally posted by defcon5

When I find CRAP (I wish I could use a stronger word then this, but…) like this: Did An Airline Mechanic Stumble Upon The Truth?, and I used to work for the airlines as a ramp supervisor, then words such as “gullible” are EXTREAMLY generious. I really should use stronger words, but unfortuantly I enjoy this site too much…

Look guy anytime anything gets a following your going to get all the snake oil salesmen coming out of the woodwork. Being a Ramp supervisor makes you an expert for debunking chemtrails ?

Let me baseline it for you, its Bullpucky, plain and simple. If you want to go buy some set of Hoodoo Poles and set it up in your lawn to magically protect you from the evil spirits of the sky, then go for it.

You will never see me using Hoodoo Poles, I use Aztec rumpa sticks myself.

The only liquids that are pumped into a commercial aircraft are: Blue Water, Water, and Fuel.

Who said they were commercial aircraft? I stated that I had no clue as to how the logistics are being done.

There is no grand conspiracy involved with this. There are too many people involved to hide it if there were

Like the Manhatton project? When J. Robert Oppenheimer was supervising it I am sure there were just to many to keep the lid on? Or when we invaded Normandy, I am sur there were to many pepole involved and we tipped our hand to the Nazi.

The belief that the American military or Government cant keep a secret was made up so people like you would not believe something as big as some of the things happening today, are too big for a secret to be kept. It just a matter of bungling a few obvious events, and bam we cant keep a secret. Thats why we kept the KGB and the former Soviet Union in check during the cold war because we coudnt keep a secret.

You my friend have been conditioned for years in advance to think the way you do.

Welcome my friend, welcome to the machine...

Oh wait, the x-files told the nation that there are these people called conspiracy theorists, and they must be riddiculed for saying the earth is round!

Originally posted by LoneGunMan
Look guy anytime anything gets a following your going to get all the snake oil salesmen coming out of the woodwork. Being a Ramp supervisor makes you an expert for debunking chemtrails ?

It lets me know first hand everything that is loaded on a commercial flight. When I see commercial planes being called the culprit, or when I see a photo which shows a commercial jet then I know that the claim is BS.

When I can go outside and look up and see the persistent contrails from the last flight bank into TPA still hovering over my head an hour or two after they have come and gone and it looks exactly the same as the photos you guys show, I know its BS.

When you use satellite pictures that show areas around a major commercial hub such as Atlanta and the sky is literally patch worked with contrails, since it’s a civilian hub, I know that it is BS.

When you all repeatedly refuse to show “Flight Explorer” Tracks corresponding to the supposed Chemtrail photo to show that it’s not from a commercial flight, I know it’s BS…

Originally posted by LoneGunMan
Who said they were commercial aircraft?

Like the Manhatton project? When J. Robert Oppenheimer was supervising it I am sure there were just to many to keep the lid on? Or when we invaded Normandy, I am sur there were to many pepole involved and we tipped our hand to the Nazi.

The belief that the American military or Government cant keep a secret was made up so people like you would not believe something as big as some of the things happening today, are too big for a secret to be kept. It just a matter of bungling a few obvious events, and bam we cant keep a secret. Thats why we kept the KGB and the former Soviet Union in check during the cold war because we coudnt keep a secret.

You my friend have been conditioned for years in advance to think the way you do.

I know the logistics involved with refining Avgas, shipping it, storing it, and delivering it to the aircraft. I know that the amount of fluid involved would require a manufacturing facility (most likely more then one, and this does not go into the manufacture and delivery of the subcomponents either), tanker ships to move it to delivery ports, tanker tucks to move it inland and get it to its final airport, and tank farms (both at the ship delivery site, at transfer points, and at the airbase) to make, store, transfer, and deliver. I know that even if the military were doing this it would be a huge program, involving tremendous sums of money, thousands of support personnel, and a vast logistics train across many states. The “Manhattan Project” was not on a normal base, was at a time of war, and was not at say 50 bases all around the country as it did not require spraying tons of chemicals over each state everyday.

There is no way that it would be a secret for 5 minutes on any normal base and there would be hundreds of military and contract people stepping forward and their families. Not one or two nutty retired ex officers. I have met a few of these conspiracy theorist retired military guys and some of them are not rowing with all their oars in the water for whatever reason, though they seem sincere. I am not saying all, but several, that I have personally met. Some just enjoy shooting the bull. I respect the military and its personnel, but just like any other field you have your nuts, jokers, attention seekers, profiteers, etc…

Let me tell you a little military secret that you can verify. It’s a phenomenon that I have personally witnessed, and I don’t have a definite explanation for it. You see I get to work with retired vets now in the medical field, as patients, on a fairly regular basis. I have also had friends that are ex-military, as well as a lot of my old ramp guys having been ex or on reserve. The thing of it is, that there seems to be a whole bunch of military urban myths that these guys come into contact with just like we do in the civilian life. I have heard the same EXACT stories from men that are years apart in age, never served together, and are in different states, yet each man swears they saw this happen with their own eyes. I am led to believe that either some of these stories are staged events as part of training, they are stories that they have heard second hand as a rumor/myth and they embellish on them (mainly to include that they were in some way involved), or it’s something that some super ultra elite close high ranking friend of theirs told them at great risk to their lives and they are now going to share with you…

A good example is the story of the guy in basic that hangs himself by tying off to the floor buffer. He then jumps out the window and rather then being hung, he is killed when the buffer comes out the window and lands on him. I have heard this story at least 4 different times, from totally unrelated people, in different states, in different branches, one of whom was a friend. The teller was always there to see the event first hand in each instance, after the fact of course. I believe that this extends into other conspiracies as well, such as 911, and some UFO stories.

Just so you see I am not picking on the military, there are also urban myths like this that seem to run through the airlines as well. They are usually based on real incidents that happened somewhere at some point, but when the story gets to you it’s usually a local event that the teller witnessed.

A prime example being: “the ramp agent that fell asleep in the bin and got shipped out to (insert city of choice here)”. Did that ever happen? Yes, a couple of times. Does every airport have an employee or ex-employee that took this ride? No, but there is a story about one “sleeping Beauty” at each airport you go to. This poor guy has apparently spent enough air hours in bins to qualify for the Golden Card Frequent Flyer Membership, and once he looses that job he simply goes to the next airport to repeat the process. If you ask me he must suffer from sleep apnea to be that tired all the time.

Point is that the military is a rumor mill, and it has its own urban legends, it also has its share of guys that want to tell a good story, others that do it to embellish on their experiences while in the service, some that are just nuts, and others that want to get a big enough following to write a book or get their 15 minutes fame on some discovery channel show. So just because someone is a retired or Ex Military Colonel, or Captain, does not immediately make him a saint of a source. The same rules of skepticism and verification should still apply. These rules should even apply to say… me, for instance. If you want to verify what I am saying in any post then by all means go for it, you will find that I speak the truth. If I don’t know something, or am speculating, I am pretty up front about it.

Anyway I hope you understand what I am getting at here, that (A) this would never be kept secret in the large community that a military base is, and (B) you cannot trust every story you hear that comes from someone just because they claim to be Ex-Military.

Let me ask this, since everyone knows about global warming, why would they even bother to keep it a secret?
This is not like the news that an asteroid was going to destroy the world in 7 days time; it would not cause mass panic. Did they keep it a secret when they used to seed out hurricanes?

As to the above article about the mechanic. Having read it I am pretty sure that the person or persons that wrote it are aviation personnel. The first time I came across the story it even included very specific pictures of the aircraft and schematics of the systems in question. Did anyone that believed this ever think that maybe the following is how that story came to exist:

[story]

Scene cut to a small dingy room, it has a bar style counter at one end that opens into a larger room. Computers, papers, and radio equipment, litter countertops everywhere. Over the counter is a sign that says Flight Operations. Papers are hanging from clipboards reaching from the ceiling to the floor between counters and desks. A large white board covered in numbers hangs on one wall, with five clocks set to various time zones in both Military and Zulu time, above it. Three guys are sitting at the computers in the room. Two are typing away and printing out ream after ream of paper on an old dot matrix printer in the corner that is spilling tractor feed paper into a huge pile on the floor, and one is browsing the net. In the larger room are a dozen men sitting around tables either playing cards or watching the television that is attached to the wall at one end of the room, all are talking and laughing loudly. Lockers and vending machines line the walls, as well as pegs holding various equipment and rows of yellow rain jackets. In flight Ops the man that is browsing the net starts to laugh loudly and calls the other two gentlemen over to check something out, next thing you know all three are laughing. A fourth man walks up to the counter from the large room and asks whats up…

Hay, you have to check this out.
What’s that?
It’s this website, these guys think that we are spraying stuff on them from the planes.
You’re kidding me.
No, for real man, come here and take a look.

The fourth man comes around the counter and starts to read and laugh, then he gets this great idea.

Man lets really mess with these nuts, huh?
Oh man... that would be fricken hilarious, yeah lets do it.

The ramp agents out in the Ready Room catch wind of what is going on and one at a time start to trickle over to the counter at Flight Ops.

Man, these guys are going to be afraid to walk out of their houses without gas masks…
What you think about my idea about putting in the Union stuff?
Well you just had to get your damn union in on this too didn’t you… Laughs.
Na, I think it adds a nice touch that the even the union rep is under their control.
Hay George, go to maintenance and see if they have a good schematic that shows the lav system, wings and the heated masts, I bet we can find some wiring or something to trace from one system to the next and show a connection between them… Snickers.

A guy in a blue dress shirt walks up to the flight ops counter.

Ok, what is going on in here, where is the loadsheet for 1223.
Its right there on the counter, but come here you have to check this out.
What's that?
We are posting this story on a conspiracy website about how we discovered that the airlines are secretly spraying stuff from the lav system into the atmosphere.
I don’t know about that, it could come back at the airlines if you start a panic.
No, it's ok, we didn't start it, there is a whole community of nuts out there that already believe this garbage… Laughs.
You must be joking, right?
No really!

George comes back in.
Hay I got some great schematics from maintenance they are all down there reading this and rolling around on the floor now too. They suggested that we trace out these three systems right here and connect them here and here.
He starts showing the guy behind the desk. The man in the blue dress shirt goes over to a file cabinet, unlocks it, and pulls out a digital camera.

Hay guys I think I saw some possible damage on AC7243 out at gate 75, why don’t you go and take some pictures of it… Laughs evilly…

Yes sir, we’ll get right on that.
Two of the agents grab the camera and walk out to the flight line…Laughing…

[/story]

Ah, the pranks that 30 bored guys can come up with between flights… It’s a thing of beauty.


[edit on 1/11/2006 by defcon5]

Originally posted by LoneGunMan

Look guy anytime anything gets a following your going to get all the snake oil salesmen coming out of the woodwork. Being a Ramp supervisor makes you an expert for debunking chemtrails ?

Why not? You won't listen to atmospheric scientists......

defcon5, I never said commercial aviation was causing this problem. You little skit doesnt mean a whole lot except for the fact that the scenario depicts people believing that this is caused by commercial airliners. Also what makes you think just because you look over what goes on an aircraft makes you an expert when it comes to chemtrails. A person overseeing the loading of tractor/trailer trucks would be an expert on chemtrails also?

So the sky suddenly changes in 1999, and I am supposed to ignore it because you are telling me its not possilble. It is not different everyday, and in my portion of the world it doesnt even change in the summer. In fact jet traffic over my small country town is zero in the summer. That includes the peak vacation/travel months of July and August when everyone goes on summer vacation. Fall/winter/spring here is completly different though. Also you should note that I used to live in an area that had jet traffic all the time so I do know the difference. I can spot a jet shooting chemtrails right next to one that is making normal contrails, I have seen it, there is a difference. In those months other than summer where I live now you can really see the contrast. Bah enough of this, its a waste of my time.

Essen I pointed out a meteoroligist before, but that was blown off. I have presented alternate scenarios to no avail. You guys are the ones that dont see the forest for the trees. Or should I say the chemtrails for the contrails?

Originally posted by LoneGunMan
Also what makes you think just because you look over what goes on an aircraft makes you an expert when it comes to chemtrails.

I wouldn't have thought it would be be possible to be an expert in chemtrails, as they don't actually exist. Apart from in the minds of a small group of people that is. Can you be an expert in something that doesn't exist? One for the philosophers I think.

I can spot a jet shooting chemtrails right next to one that is making normal contrails, I have seen it, there is a difference.

But can you tell us how you can tell the difference between a "normal" contrail and one that is laced with chemicals? You must accept that contrails can look different depending on atmospheric conditions and that the jets you are looking at may well be at different altitudes (therefore subject to different atmospheric conditions).

So what, essentially, does a chemical laced contrail look like vs a "normal" non-chemical contrail? How might we go out and spot our own "chemtrails" and be sure that they are not normal contrails? I'm afraid that "they look different" doesn't really help, as no 2 contrails look exactly the same.

Originally posted by LoneGunMan
Also what makes you think just because you look over what goes on an aircraft makes you an expert when it comes to chemtrails. A person overseeing the loading of tractor/trailer trucks would be an expert on chemtrails also?

No a Lead Agent oversees the loading of the aircraft; a Supervisor is in charge of an entire ramp area. He oversees everything that comes into contact with all his planes and is ultimately responsible for each plane as long as it is on the ramp, unless it terminates or maintenance takes it over. Making sure that the Lead has enough people and equipment to run his flight is another thing he has to do, amongst other things. Even so far as dealing with the Tank Farm.

So a ramp supervisor would be aware of every chemical that is going on the aircraft in enough quantity to cause chemtrails. Not only would he be responsible for the truck that pumped it, but also with assigning a person to do the pumping, ensuring that it was done on each flight so the balance was correct, responsible for any delays caused if the pumping vehicle did not get to the flight and finish on time, etc…

It also taught me the logistics involved in such a pumping operation first hand.

So, ok, if you think it’s the military then, and they are doing this with such a volume to cover up the skies to the point that they are obscured, then answer my question above about the Manufacture, Transport, Storage, and whole logistics train involved with that. Also is this stuff based out of military bases, airports, or both, and about how many? How many tons of stuff would it take to obscure the skies to the amount you claim, and it would take how many aircraft how long to do it?

I think that when you try and answer those questions logically you will begin to understand what I am saying…

Saying that it is happening, “but I cannot figure out the logistics of it”, is a cop out. If you cannot figure out the logistics then you have to accept that it most likely does not exist.

Originally posted by LoneGunMan

Essen I pointed out a meteoroligist before, but that was blown off. I have presented alternate scenarios to no avail. You guys are the ones that dont see the forest for the trees. Or should I say the chemtrails for the contrails?

'You Guys' meaning every atmospheric scientist, the members of every major meteorological organisation - both governmental and private - in the world, plus tens of thousands of amateur meteorologists....

Still, if you think one TV weatherman knows more than all them

I can see with your experience that you are convinced (for good reason) that there is no chem dumping by commercial planes... and i agree...

However, remember not to fall into the trap of "experience proves"
as that is presuming that you know about every plane that ever takes off anywhere, and you dont.

the only reliable (IMO) whistleblower has stated plainly that only limited test flights using modified military aircraft have taken place...
so (again IMO) you wouldn't have had access to any information that would be usable by your personal experience. (no more so than any other researcher)

And Orgone energy? I will beleive it when i see it... and i looked...

so aside from that, argue against commercial aircraft chemtrails all you want, But i think it isn't really the argueing point. It seems that the contention is:
1. that there is even a way to manipulate weather using chem dumping
2. and if we are doing it,
and you can bet that testing is happening right now, for every potential (legal) method.
This is based upon the militarys own suggestion that global warming is happening, and affecting the militarys ability to plan/stage...
they want to be able to control weather to moderate global warming... and as with everything else that the military wants... it gets... usually about 30-40 years before we learn about it...

Originally posted by LazarusTheLong
1. that there is even a way to manipulate weather using chem dumping
2. and if we are doing it,

Well cloud seeding definitely occurs, however it doesn't leave trails.

In terms of controlling global warming: there is no feasible way to control it other than reducing greenhouse gas emissions (and it may be too late for this). Certainly no way of doing it using planes, as every plane journey contributes to global warming by burning huge amounts of jet fuel. I also can't think of any possible way that spraying stuff into the air would help - I have also never seen any environmental scientist suggest such a plan, despite new plans being produced every day.

This is based upon the militarys own suggestion that global warming is happening, and affecting the militarys ability to plan/stage...

I would be skeptical about the military giving a flying crap about gobal warming, and even if they did they wouldn't see it as their place to do anything. The US military doesn't appear to be the most "environmentally friendly" organisation

they want to be able to control weather to moderate global warming... and as with everything else that the military wants... it gets... usually about 30-40 years before we learn about it...

This is just speculation though isn't it? As I said there is nothing the military could do even if they wanted to, and certainly not by spraying a few chemical laced contrails over LoneGunMan's house. Even the mighty US military's resources are nothing compared to the scale of the problem.

How exactly would global warming affect the military ability to plan or perform operations? It takes quite a high temperature to affect the ability of a plane to take off, and we haven't seen that kind of temperature change. Nothing else in global warming would affect the military activities going on around the world.

Originally posted by FatherLukeDuke

Originally posted by LazarusTheLong
1. that there is even a way to manipulate weather using chem dumping
2. and if we are doing it,

Well cloud seeding definitely occurs, however it doesn't leave trails.

In terms of controlling global warming: there is no feasible way to control it other than reducing greenhouse gas emissions (and it may be too late for this). Certainly no way of doing it using planes, as every plane journey contributes to global warming by burning huge amounts of jet fuel. I also can't think of any possible way that spraying stuff into the air would help - I have also never seen any environmental scientist suggest such a plan, despite new plans being produced every day.

Yes there is, its called winter. One of the things that winter does for us is the white covering of snow reflects the suns energy, instead of it getting absorbed into the ground

This is based upon the militarys own suggestion that global warming is happening, and affecting the militarys ability to plan/stage...

I would be skeptical about the military giving a flying crap about gobal warming, and even if they did they wouldn't see it as their place to do anything. The US military doesn't appear to be the most "environmentally friendly" organisation

You really dont see the big picture very well, now do you? The miltary has become an entity that is not here to protect the peoples interest, they are here for corporate America. In order to reduce greenhouse gas emissions it would cost manufacturers more than they want to spend. So the military does it in order to have the American tax payer foot the bill.

Another reason why the military would want to help this mission succeed is because if the polar ice caps melt too much more the Navy's Ohio class submarines (the ones that house ICBM's) will not have as many places to hide. This is key to the USA for our defence. You can wipe us completly out, nothing left of the good ole USA, and then those boomers dont recieve a signal. They then break through the ice and launch for a full secondary strike back, with enough firepower to destroy any enemy.

they want to be able to control weather to moderate global warming... and as with everything else that the military wants... it gets... usually about 30-40 years before we learn about it...

This is just speculation though isn't it? As I said there is nothing the military could do even if they wanted to, and certainly not by spraying a few chemical laced contrails over LoneGunMan's house. Even the mighty US military's resources are nothing compared to the scale of the problem.

Another note my little condensending flat earther. I have not seen one Chemtrail this fall/winter. It looks like early spring up here here and we normally recieve 10-50 below zero windchill. So you need to remember that just because your mind cannot concieve that such an occurance can happen, doesnt meant that it is not happening.








[edit on 12-1-2006 by LoneGunMan]

[edit on 12-1-2006 by LoneGunMan]

Sorry for the triple post, having some connection problems...

[edit on 12-1-2006 by LoneGunMan]