Chemtrails / EM

Well Howard it doesnt take a NASA Scientist or engineer to figure it out.

It is all about volume.

A hot engine traveling at high altitude causes a certain amount of condensation.

Cloud formation in most cases have much more volume of moisture in a condensed form.

When you reach a certain dewpoint cloud formation occurs.

This is a much different proccess than contrail formation.

Just like a puddle evaporates faster than a lake, a contrail evaporates faster than normal clouds.

[edit on 21-12-2005 by LoneGunMan]

Originally posted by LoneGunMan
Well Howard it doesnt take a NASA Scientist or engineer to figure it out.

It is all about volume.

A hot engine traveling at high altitude causes a certain amount of condensation.

Wrong.

Contrail formation has nothing to do with the temperature of the engine. Contrails form from the water vapor present in the engine exhaust as a result of fuel combustion.

Hydrocarbon fuel (made up of hydrogen and carbon atoms) + atmospheric oxygen (O2) => CO2 (carbon dioxide) + H2O (water)

It is that added water that is condensing into a contrail.

Cloud formation in most cases have much more volume of moisture in a condensed form.

So what?

read me

When you reach a certain dewpoint cloud formation occurs.

Do you know what the standard temperature at 25,000 feet altitude is?

Is there a dewpoint at this altitude? If not, then what is it called?

This is a much different process than contrail formation.

How so? Do you have any empirical data to back this up?

Just like a puddle evaporates faster than a lake, a contrail evaporates faster than normal clouds.

How is the evaporation rate affected by the relative humidity?

Is there a difference between the relative humidity with respect to water (RHw) and the relative humidity with respect to ice (RHi)?

Can the RHw ever be above 100%?

What about the RHi? Can it be above 100%?

Can there be clouds present, but so thin that you can not see them from the ground?


If you can answer any of these questions, then we might have a biasis for discussion.

Originally posted by HowardRoark

Wrong.

Contrail formation has nothing to do with the temperature of the engine. Contrails form from the water vapor present in the engine exhaust as a result of fuel combustion.

No kidding Howie? It is the same thing as when water droplets come out your car exhaust. This is why there is a finite amount of moisture in a contrail. This is also the reason they burn off from the sun.

Cloud formation in most cases have much more volume of moisture in a condensed form.

So what?

You remind me of Ari Fliesher, the ultimate spinmaster. Volume is everything when it comes to making contrail burn off.


Everything in your post can be googled so it is a lesson in futility. Why spend the time explaining it to you when it can be googled so easily?

Originally posted by LoneGunMan
there is a finite amount of moisture in a contrail.

Not necessarily. The amount of moisture in a contrail, or a cloud is not finite. A cloud or a contrail can grow or shrink, depending on the relative humidity. If you had researched this, then you would know this.

This is also the reason they burn off from the sun.

Cirrus clouds and contrails do not “burn off from the sun.” Cloud growth is linked to the relative humidity and the amount of ice forming nuclei. Cloud dissipation is related to relative humidity alone.

You never answered my questions from the previous post.

How is the evaporation rate affected by the relative humidity?

Is there a difference between the relative humidity with respect to water (RHw) and the relative humidity with respect to ice (RHi)?

Can the RHw ever be above 100%?

What about the RHi? Can it be above 100%?

You remind me of Ari Fliesher, the ultimate spinmaster. Volume is everything when it comes to making contrail burn off.

No. Volume has nothing to do with it. Relative humidity is the key parameter. That is why I asked you those questions. If you can demonstrate that you know and understand the answers to those questions, then you will have the ability to discuss this subject in an intelligent manner.

Everything in your post can be googled so it is a lesson in futility. Why spend the time explaining it to you when it can be googled so easily?

If you can’t demonstrate that you know and understand the answers to these simple questions, then why should anyone take what you say seriously?

If all it take is to google it, then by all means do so. Google away. Maybe you will learn something.

The sun has nothing to do with it?

Howard of course if you have high relative humidity your evaporation rate changes, cripes I took that weather course in the 8th grade.

You can have a 100% relative humidity and have zero evaporation, but it is not going to make contrails spread out and turn into total overcast.

I bid you a happy Yule though, the wheel has turned once more...

You didn't answer my question about relative humidty greater than 100%.

I'll give you a hint. It's is called supersaturation.

What happens to a supersaturated solution when you add a seed crystal to it?

Howard you have gone over this and gone over this. Stop repeting yourself, its all pretty simple

I am not talking about a supersturation.

Goodnight Howard, I never had much practice typing and I dont like to do it, I am a graphic arts guy, like the mouse, so I dont like long exlanations. So g'night oh souless-one.

Maybe you should.


It turns out that ice supersaturated regions of the upper troposphere are quite common.

It is virtually impossible for a contrail to dissipate once it forms in a supersaturated air mass.

Once you understand this simple fact, then you can free yourself of the chemtrail delusion forever.

Well, this is what the Royal Meteorological Society have to say on the matter:-

www.royal-met-soc.org.uk...

But I suppose they're in on the conspiracy too....

Howard Roark... now where have I heard that name...

A Carey Grant movie...

A genious architect....

Howie are you an architect of spin?

I thought that the trails you see in the sky from ANY aircraft are from the air layers being colder than the kerosene exhaust from the engine. Or is it a warmer layer of air???
In any case, for the past 5 days, I have seen about 10 trails every morning at 10 a.m. Seems they are more frequent in the winter than summer. Cuz I don't remember seeing them at all this last summer.

If chemtrailing is real, i KNOW what it is, i mean it's starting me right in the face right now:

loong article on something else entirely

on p11, the first sentence reads

In 1946 the United States’ chief of biological weapons development reported to the Secretary of Defence that the research scientists had managed to isolate the disease active principal of bacteria in a crystalline form.....

now, that's it, that has to be it, if it's real.

just for kicks, the stuff is known as mycoplasma, and i'd wager there's a lot more to it than web sources suggest, just an itch, if you will, but the stuff is too old...

let me explain, the genome wasn't known in the 19th century, was it??

more info for anyone who'd like to know a bit more...

www.cfsresearch.org...

and

www.consumerhealth.org...


of course, they have slightly divergent views on the subject, but that's what makes the entire story VERY interesting.

PS: final question: why does next to noone know anything about the stuff? why and more importantly, how was it kept out of view for so long?

The gov asdmits that it does weather modification, why are chemtrails so hard to believe?

No they don't. They admit that they're looking into weather modification as a possiblity in the future, but they don't now.

not that I'm the most knowledgable on this subject..and I'm not sure whoever is behind chemtrails would be dumb enough to have it involved in civilian aviation...but haven't a lot of these sprays been done by unmarked or gov/military planes?

And what about those chembusters out there from places like educate-yourself.org? has anyone checked these out for themselves?

Originally posted by invisibleplane
not that I'm the most knowledgable on this subject..and I'm not sure whoever is behind chemtrails would be dumb enough to have it involved in civilian aviation...but haven't a lot of these sprays been done by unmarked or gov/military planes?

Well here in the UK what some call chemtrails are left by commercial airliners following commercial airliner routes.....

Besides which, any unusual military aircraft activity would soon be picked up by the myriad of plane spotters who congregate around all air bases (that's how we recently discovered about those secret CIA flights www.guardian.co.uk... )

If plane spotters can thwart the CIA, I'm pretty sure they'd spot an unusual upsurge in unusual activity by KC-135s or whatever.....?

here in slovenia they have been using chemicals to spray clouds for years if not decades. When there is a danger of ice falling which is quite common here and dangerous as well (crops in particular suffer) you can see them spraying the sky. Last year the weather was so intense they ran out of the chemicals !

does that count for chemtrails?

peace

Originally posted by nukunuku
here in slovenia they have been using chemicals to spray clouds for years if not decades. When there is a danger of ice falling which is quite common here and dangerous as well (crops in particular suffer) you can see them spraying the sky. Last year the weather was so intense they ran out of the chemicals !

does that count for chemtrails?

peace

Slovenia - cool! I've visited your country 4 times now in 4 years for hiking trips in the mountains, I love the place. Gorgeous scenery and friendly people (plus very cheap flights from here in the UK )

Anyways, back on topic: cloud seeding doesn't leave any trails, so can't really count as "chemtrails". Plus it needs to be done on a cloudy day....so you wouldn't be able to make out anything even if it did.