criss angel discussion...

Nice find, I'm listening to it now. I've never doubted the intelligence of Criss Angel, just of his fans.

Just a brief reply: NOT ONE reply. as I was sure, gave any more ' evidence ' for an alternative explanation than ' an off camera 50 foot crane '. Amazing! They all fall back on the old' camera/ computer trick ' angle or the off scene crane..nothing original there.

I asked for specific alternatives. The YouTube videos mean absolutely nothing because they all are done under totally different conditions and for different events. Apples and oranges. The cameras used by Angel are sometimes given to bystanders to use, so trick angles are out. Bystanders could NOT be all paid and silent forever..that strains the bounds of credulity way more than levitation does.

Until someone can SPECIFICALLY demonstrate how Criss can levitate a lady in Las Vegas on the street with hundreds surrounding him, at arms length , no wires, no cranes, no magnets, then admit the truth. Like the whole of Vegas is in on it, right? Videos are reliable evidence...just look in any court these days. If no proof of tampering , editing or alteration is evident or provable, then a video that has recorded an event can be said to be real and true evidence.

NOT ONE person commented on Criss walking on water, now have they? None dare insult our intelligence by assuming that it could have all been a huge set up, no way.

The people fortunate enough to see these performances in person are universally stunned, amazed and astounded. True, elements of illusion may be incorporated, as I noted above, but we are seeing real and actual events as proven by multiple independent witnesses. It is so sure a reality that the burden of proof lies upon the DISBELIEVERS to show how it could be the way they claim.

The odds are that Angel and Takayama and Blaine are exactly what they appear to be: Master illusionists who have gone to the next level and are performing feats that defy our limited comprehension of reality to the degree that we doubt our own senses...which scares some people, who then claim it is all a fake so they can sleep at night...OR accept what we see and expand our senses, and horizons, by not denying that which cannot be intelligently and rationally denied: the proof is right in front of you...prove it is faked or accept it as real. Anything else is dishonest.

eyewitness86, have you listened to the interview with Penn? You owe it to yourself to listen.

A brilliant entertainer, illusionist and performer. But he does use camera tricks to create smiles and excitement.

He wants you to have loads of fun and getting cheers and smiles is what Criss Angel does for others very well.

Originally posted by menguard
I would definately agree with Paul here, he has a 'electromagnetic charge' which helps him stun crowds.He is tapping more and more into the other side, with each level of high risk fatality, he becomes fearless and embraces spirits potential.

Perhaps a better phrase for that would be a Gift of Charisma.

As you stated, he definitely "becomes fearless" as times goes on. One wonders how far he will go. Then again, he has a lot of help in doing those manifestations or he wouldn't pursue it in the first place.

[edit on 22-6-2007 by Paul_Richard]

Originally posted by nataylor
Angel specifically says "I do not believe that anybody has the ability to anything that's supernatural. I beleive nothing of what I hear and half of what I see and until I see some proof in front of me, it's all BS. You know, people just take advantage of vulnerable people." He goes on toa gree with Penn that the "real" stuff he does is the stunt stuff and the supernatural stuff is fake. And Angel says "I don't have powers."

To say that one does not have powers does not necessarily mean that one does not have a Gift. Powers imply an internal control system that one can turn on and off at will. A Gift of the Spirit implies that others are behind the manifestations. Which is why they are not referred to as Gifts of the Brain.

Moreover, in this Fox News Interview with John Gibson Criss Angel says that a lot of what he does is real. I also saw him say it in at least one other video clip. For the real facets of his performances, he mentioned using what he terms the Mind-Body-Spirit connection.

The question arises, if you were a mystifier or illusionist with a Gift of Telekinesis and you wanted to get rich from it without being held under the scrutiny of many who are prejudiced against the validity of magick, would you want to publicly reveal your Gift?

I doubt it.

[edit on 22-6-2007 by Paul_Richard]

dear paul richard,

if the theory you state is true or any t/k explainations for that matter, then what are the "karma" consequences involved in ths sort of arrangement?



I mean are there any repercussions for having the ge's help. If they can help people with inane crap like this then why cant they help people with more constuctive everyday spiritual bits and bobs. You know actually help people instead of helping to distract them.

Or is it just an otherside pyramid scheme?

[edit on 22-6-2007 by KTK]

Did you listen to the interview? They talk about what is "real." It's the stunt stuff. Hanging from a helicopter with hooks in his back? Real. Jumping a motorcycle? Real. Being extremely flexible? Being able to pick locks? High pain threshold? Real, real, and real.

He goes WAY more in depth as to the supernatural and such in the Penn interview than in the Gibson interview. I'm at a loss as to why you would believe a fleeting remark in one interview but not a detailed discussion in another. He doesn't believe in the supernatural. In fact, he and Penn seemed to take it as a insult to say that his does supernatural stuff. That means that people don't respect exactly how good he is at his art: working within the boundaries of standard magic (lying, misdirection, and gimmicks) and still producing spectacular results. They think what he does comes easy to him when, as he says, he busts his chops to design and execute his illusions.

Originally posted by nataylor
I'm at a loss as to why you would believe a fleeting remark in one interview but not a detailed discussion in another. He doesn't believe in the supernatural. In fact, he and Penn seemed to take it as a insult to say that his does supernatural stuff.

It was not a fleeting remark but one done on national television. Technically, that is more important than a radio or audio interview.

He said that a lot of what he does is real, with the rest being illusion. Like a politician, he carefully chooses his wording. Criss Angel not proclaiming a belief in the supernatural is irrelevant. This guy is out to make a living and to do other things as well.

Hi KTK,

I would be happy to answer your questions and provide you with an overview from my perspective as a Solist Mystic and spiritual medium.

A Group Entity is a community of people on the Other Side, usually within the set of dimensions known as the fourth plane (from the traditional seven astral plane paradigm) or the yellow spectrum of discarnate dimensions. These combine their energies in The Light in order to manifest healing and telekinesis.

Discarnate communities often vote for one among them to descend into physicality and to serve as their incarnate prophet (for whatever reason). They then grant their incarnate prophet Gifts of the Spirit from their collective energies.

That is the nature of a traditional Gift of Telekinesis.

For example, the prophet Issa/Jesus had a Group Entity that consisted of millions of "yellow angels." This is the reason behind the yellow halo and yellow auric illustrations of Jesus throughout the centuries - all the way up to the painting of "an ascending Jesus" behind the casket of Pope John Paul's funeral that depicted Jesus being surrounded by an abundance of yellow energy. Those yellow auric and yellow halo illustrations indicate that the power of Jesus doe not stem from a Godhead of Intense White discarnate energy (as the closest color to white in the Spirit is not yellow or violet, but sky blue), but from a community of basically spiritual people on the fourth plane. These angels powered Issa's Gifts of the Spirit. Before his birth, they voted him to be their incarnate prophet with the intention of fulfilling Old Testament messianic prophecy and to start a new religion.

For the future Ascended Masters, the power behind a Gift of Telekinesis (when incarnate) will not come from a Group Entity in the Mid Realms. Instead, it will come from their own creation, when Ascended in The Light, of a computerized battery of cosmic energy - called a Secondary Godhead Sun (SGS) - that will obey their telepathic commands and automatically channel God Force Light into and around them when they are descended into flesh.

To be a God Realized Master that has Ascended into his or her respective Primary Godhead Sun in The Light, to then have created with The Light a Secondary Godhead Sun, and then to come back into physicality with SGS-powered Gifts of the Spirit that are much stronger than that of any angel prophet (including Issa/Jesus, Sai Baba, David Blaine, and Criss Angel), is to be Post Ascended. There are no Ascended or Post Ascended Masters at present but their emergence is increasing in probability.

Originally posted by KTK
if the theory you state is true or any t/k explainations for that matter, then what are the "karma" consequences involved in ths sort of arrangement?

The karmic consequences all tie in with how the energy is being used.

If the energy is projected to serve others, then positive karma is the result, i.e., more spiritual stability in The Light and more glory for the Group Entity.

If the energy is projected to abuse one or more innocents, to deceive, manipulate, etc., then negative karma is the result. Resulting in less spiritual stability, retrogression away from The Light, and, depending on the severity of the abuse and whether or not reparations are being made, an eventual lessening of the entire discarnate community to a point of having a Dominant Aura Color of red. Those with a DAC of red in the Lower Realms (the second plane) can only stay combined into a Group Entity for minutes at a time, and with a much weaker level of energy than those with a DAC of yellow on the fourth plane. The most hellish existence in the Spirit is to lessen to having a DAC of brown on the first plane. These souls cannot combine into a Group Entity at all and are forced to reside in a vibration that houses those who are constantly hostile to one another.

Originally posted by KTK
I mean are there any repercussions for having the ge's help. If they can help people with inane crap like this then why cant they help people with more constuctive everyday spiritual bits and bobs. You know actually help people instead of helping to distract them.

Or is it just an otherside pyramid scheme?

Group Entities have their own agendas and that needs to be taken into consideration when one seeks to channel their energies.

Some charity work is done by Group Entities, e.g., healings. They would be utter fools not to do that to strengthen their power and stability in The Light.

Criss Angel and his Group Entity have already set the stage for a religious drama to unfold. Just as it did around the prophet Issa/Jesus.

It doesn't take a spiritual medium to figure out where that will lead.

Criss Angel Might Be Jesus!

Criss Angel = Jesus

I doubt that Criss Angel will be incarcerated, much less killed through traditional means. His GE would simply teleport him away. As they did here, here, and here.

Which is why the prophet Jesus/Issa, who instead of having thousands in his GE, had millions, was never incarcerated or crucified, but lived to be an old man

Issa/Jus Asaf Escaped Death On The Cross & Died In India At 80 After Proclaiming To Be The Galilean Messiah

Criss Angel is not the soul of Issa/Jesus. In at least one former incarnation he was a fakir in India, along with David Blaine. (That is why they have a talent for manipulating their bodies.) But the cited references above do signify the impact that Criss Angel and the energies of his Group Entity are making, and the strong possibility that a new angel-based religion is in the works on this planet - with Angel being the central figure.

Are you ready?



[edit on 23-6-2007 by Paul_Richard]

As I knew all along, not ONE refutation that has merit. Penn and Teller are morons..crude and often funny but they have their heads in the sand. They belittle all of the empirical evidence that 9-11 is an inside job..they belittle the Bible and many other things that they have formed opinions about and then defend their trashing of the truth with insults and innuendo and never the FACTS.

NO ONE, not one person, has answered intelligently as to my request: SPECIFICALLY, tell me how it is done..the levitations , etc. NOT "watch a video " that has no real bearing on all this . Penn and Teller answer not ONE time any reason why we should doubt our eyes in the case of Angel, Takayama and Blaine. Penn is a big mouth, loud and brash and full of himself, but with no substance, no logic, no real answers, just obfuscation and denial. Teller is either mute or so shy he might as well just carry Penns giant lunch box for him and nod enthusiastically every time Penn says something..Sheeple, but worse as they have an audience they can lie to.

So, I can assume that not one person involved in this discussion can provide any real and valid explanations for the events we see..telling me that camera angles are the reason is stupid: Camera angles make no difference when a man is flying thru the air!! Or making metals and solids change consistency, how does camera angle affect that? If the only refuge of the DENIERS is camera tricks and paid off thousands of extras that remain forever silent, then I feel we have won the argument already and by a massive magin of doubt.

Take SPECIFIC ' illusions ' like Criss walking on water and levitating outdoors..or Cyril pulling hamburgers out of pictures , or Blaine reconstituting liquids on camera with NO STOPS IN SHOOTING and no camera angle changes....and either tell me HOW it could be done, logically, not cranes that are invisible or massive numbers of actors playing ordinary citizens, but logically and intelligently.

If no one can do that, then the answer is clear: the naysayers have lost the argunment and if honest they will admit this or at least admit that they are stumped....that at least would be honest. So far no one has risen to the challenge, and I doubt seriously that anyone ever will. Prove me wrong here and now and show how these ' tricks ' could possibly be done under the circumstances AT HAND...NOT some preconceived set of " if it were like this"..OR here is how it is done with props."..Show the props or admit they do not exist. Be honest people, put up or admit you are beyond understanding it all; I can respect a person that acknowledges a lack of comprehension a lot more than a person who just claims to know the truth but cannot explain HOW they know it!!

eyewitness86, you still haven't listened to the interview, have you? It is Criss Angel talking with Penn Jillette. They are buddies. You get to hear Angel's own words on what he does.

I have to side with eyewitness86 on the issue of Penn Jillette. He is not a credible, objective, or informed source of information. Jillette is indeed a loudmouthed, prejudiced, and ignorant person who is more interested in entertaining in an abrasive manner than in pursuing the truth about anything. Similar to, but to a lesser extent than, radio shock-jock Howard Stern.

I remember Penn Jillette going off on one of his HBO episodes about the issue of psychics not telling the government about upcoming disasters like 9-11. That it was a crime in itself for not doing so.

The truth is that there is no agency within the government that is open to listening.

With the exception of hired remote viewers and analysts of public information that work in secret.

Case in point. The celebrated seer Jeane Dixon saw and announced the upcoming assassination of U.S. President John F. Kennedy in Texas. She made the attempt to save him by contacting the White House and preventing his departure.

They did not listen to her.

The result?

JFK was assassinated.

Is it her fault that she was ignored?

Hardly.

Next...

In the audio interview, Criss Angel says...

>

I wholeheartedly agree.

Technically, no one in the flesh has the ability to do anything that is supernatural. All Gifts of the Spirit come from people on the Other Side, not from within the incarnate individual.

See how clever Criss Angel's wording is?

Do you think that a discarnate community (i.e., a Group Entity) would elect a MORON to represent their power in the flesh and be their PROPHET?



Hey...how about getting Criss Angel to publicly state or say that he does not believe in Gifts of the Spirit?

That he does not believe that there are communities of people on the Other Side?

That he does not believe in the power of angels?

That he does not believe that magick exists?

That he does not believe in the power of Jesus?

Actually, according to a poster in this thread, he has professed his belief in Jesus.

I would like to put this challenge out along with eyewitness86's challenge for someone to explain how Criss Angel performs his "illusions" of telekinesis - outside of him having a Gift of the Spirit that allows him to do so.



[edit on 23-6-2007 by Paul_Richard]

i always seem to miss that show, i did get to see one thing he did where he pulled a quarter out from under his skin on his forearm. it was pretty neat.

EXACTLY!! The fact that Criss does not see his abilites as " supernatural ', but rather as ' natural ' does NOT MEAN that he said that all of his events are illusions or tricks. Let me say that again : Criss Angel in no way, shape or form ever says that he is not performing events that defy conventional explanation.

He wants us all, I am sure, to understand that this is all NATURAL. Just because most of us are not disciplined enough or committed enough to replicate his actions does NOT mean that we can honestly and with intellectual soundness dismiss what he does just because it challenges our preconceived notions of reality.

Like I keep on saying, please, just once someone SPECIFICALLY show us how Criss and the others are performing these events if in fact it is all smoke and mirrors. Explain the walk on water, please. Why do all of the naysayers stay silent on this? All they can do is point to a comment that obviously has deeper meaning than the obvious...if THIS is all of the proof they have then we win, hands down. In a formal debate, the skeptics would be laughed off the stage for refusing to supply intelligent alternative answers yet still insisting that it all must somehow be a ' hoax ' or ' illusion '. The fact that they cannot explain the ' hoax or illusion ' is that they would have to reach so deeply into the ridiculous for an excuse that the real events become all the more credible due to the lack of an articulate and sensible refutation of the obvious.

C'mon guys and gals, if thats all you have then admit defeat now and save the embarassment of being held up to ridicule for denying the empirical evidence that exists..and exists without real and substantial evidence to counter the truth. Show the evidence for fakery or admit he is for real.

And you guys STILL haven't listened to the interview. How sad.

Originally posted by nataylor
And you guys STILL haven't listened to the interview. How sad.

I did.

It doesn't back up your argument.

Criss Angel DOES NOT go into the specifics of how he does his "illusions" in the interview with Penn Jillette. Specifically, how he does his high flying levitations.

How sad that you remain blind-sighted by your own prejudice.

Fortunately, not all of us have that problem.

eyewitness86...keep it coming

You know, you have to laugh at Penn's sophomoric understanding about how Gifts of the Spirit operate. He thinks that those who have them would be able to save the world as superheroes. It doesn't work that way. No Gift of the Spirit is that powerful. Criss Angel has become wealthy because of his Gifts when veteran magicians decades older cannot even get on television, much less have more air time than any other illusionist.

Note also that in the interview, Criss Angel says that he does not use trick photography.

If the prophet Issa/Jesus was here in the flesh today and with his Gifts, then he would have the same stigma and the same controversy surrounding him that Criss Angel has now.



[edit on 23-6-2007 by Paul_Richard]

Originally posted by radioactive_liquid
i always seem to miss that show

, i did get to see one thing he did where he pulled a quarter out from under his skin on his forearm. it was pretty neat.

Here is where you can find his show airing...

A&E Criss Angel

Also...go to this page for many links to videos on Criss Angel and others who have a Gift.



[edit on 23-6-2007 by Paul_Richard]

We can find several excellent video's on www.youtube.com that debunk Criss Angel, or rather show him using camera tricks. Criss Angel claims to not use any camera tricks but it depends on what is your definition of camera tricks. Much of the controversy rests upon the idea that Criss could not do what he does unless he had either camera editing or real powers. Well, he can do much without the camera due to very hard work and regardless of camera tricks, he is very, very talented and is still able to perform without editing.

James Randi and his annoying JREF cult followers leave Criss Angel alone because Randi and Criss know each other from their associates in the early days when they were fooling the University Professors. They only attack those people who claim to have psychic abilities.

Sweft

P.S
I do not endorse anything of James Randi other than to mention this much. Randi along with his cult followers have failed to debunk truly gifted mystics like Edgar Cayce, however James Randi does serve us all a purpose and has foiled several known frauds to date. Criss Angel is not even on Randi's hit-list because he knows that Criss poses no threat.

Originally posted by sweftl337
They only attack those people who claim to have psychic abilities.

Which is precisely why Criss Angel does not claim to have them.

So he can laugh all the way to the bank.

I just went to the link provided just to placate our dear friend of another opinion, and it took me to the Penn FANCLUB site! Pardon me for not signing up yet but until I see Penn's fat ass flying over the rooftops of a few hotels or duplicating material items from seemingly nothing ( and on and on and on...ad nauseum ) then I prefer to hold back on Fanclub membership.

In any event, like my fellow comprehender above, Criss does NOT address the SPECIFIC events that we speak of, so why the insistence on seeing yet another video that does not answer the topic with finality?

Until I get ONE reply to my request I am not going to chase any more sorry excuses for an explanation. Like I said, it is up to the naysayers now to show how anyone could give their viewpoint credibility since NOT ONE intelligent and thorough answer has been given to my request.

Here, once again, for SPECIFIC reply, is my request:

Explain, demonstrate or otherwise account for the actions of these men, including Angel, Takayama, and Blaine, most notably, in ways that satisfy the inquiring and mature mind. Explain, SPECIFICALLY how he pulled off the walking on water " stunt ", with rational and logical and believable alternatives, based on the evidence presented that has NOT been refuted through established and scientific means as altered, edited or manipulated to any extent that would affect the true representation of the event.

Tell me HOW, specifically, he can swallow a marked coin, pull back his sleeve and show to all present, and the cameras, without cutting, without effects, the movement under the skin, readily observable, and watch the movement progress until Criss takes a knife and slices open his flesh and allows the verification of the coins markings to take place before he touches it.

If I hear another ' its all computer tricks ' or ' camera angles ' as a defense, I will lose a great deal of respect for the writer of such nonsense. If NO ONE can SPECIFICALLY tell us how these things, these SPECIFIC things, can be done other than as is apparent, then retire from the debate and salvage what you can of your reputations as critical thinkers by admitting that even if you are not able to accept the obvious, at least you will no longer submit mainfestly disengenuous and fallacious arguments so that a certain level of intelligent discourse is maintained. Thank You in advance for your specific and credible relpies.