criss angel discussion...

Originally posted by Paul_Richard

Originally posted by sweftl337
Sai Baba is not part of that group of Illusionists/Mentalists.

True.

But Sai Baba is documented to have many Gifts of the Spirit. Do a Net search.

Since this is a discussion about Criss Angel possibly having a Gift of Telekinesis, then references to others purportedly having one are also valid.

You must look at each performance individually to be able to decide about the audience. Did you watch the spoon bending video I posted?

Sai Baba is not performing and not someone I'd like to get too close to.

If you want to do what I did....you may also attempt to prove your case on the JREF forums. If you do this just be warned that they already know everything about Criss Angel and that James Randi and Criss Angel get along just fine. Criss learned allot from Banachek the master of spoon-bending.

Sweft

P.S Ignatius Loyola is the same soul as Emanuel Swedenborg - I just noticed your signature.

[edit on 23-6-2007 by sweftl337]

i've seen several mindfreak episodes and everytime i get a gut feeling that that boy is playing with forces we are not supposed to be playing with

don't get me wrong some of the illusions he does may simple be just that - illusions; but some of his other stuff just seems to be wrong

[edit on 23-6-2007 by jediqwerty]

like david blaine hes proberly a devil worshipper its the only way to explain wat they do like make a card go thro glass its freeky

Originally posted by jediqwerty
i've seen several mindfreak episodes and everytime i get a gut feeling that that boy is playing with forces we are not supposed to be playing with

don't get me wrong some of the illusions he does may simple be just that - illusions; but some of his other stuff just seems to be wrong

[edit on 23-6-2007 by jediqwerty]

youtube.com...

He may be playing with the forces of illusion. Even matter itself can be considered an illusion or a reflection.

Originally posted by sweftl337
Sai Baba is...not someone I'd like to get too close to.

I have to agree with you on that one.

Sai Baba's Gifts have lessened over the years because of being a sexual predator of young men and boys at his ashram. Various former devotees in recent years have come out on the Net to testify about his pedophile activities.

I am not interested in magicians. I am only interested in telekinetics. Sai Baba, as well as Criss Angel, fall into that category.

[EDIT: Sai Baba has performed many times in India. Do a Net search on his "miracles." He doesn't bill himself as a magician, but as God Incarnate; in Hinduism this is called an Avatar, which many have believed him to be. In actuality, he is only a pedophile subangel prophet who channeled a large Group Entity. Criss Angel will also lose his Gift of Telekinesis, just as Sai Baba basically has, if he abuses the privilege by abusing innocents and/or if his Group Entity abuses innocents.]



[edit on 24-6-2007 by Paul_Richard]

I can see how they could stage some of the stuff like walking on water and up a building and that kind of stuff, but the video where you can watch the spoon bend and any time he moves something without touching it just kind of wierd me out.

He admits that most of it's illusion, and it's easy to see how most of it is, but some of it just doesn't make sense.

Paul Richard: WE win..hands down. As we suspected, NOT ONE answer of merit. Still the same old ' they are magicians, we don't know how ', or ;' watch this video of a totally different thing ' as excuses.

The burden of proof lies upon the people who CANNOT come up with even ONE example that intelligently explains the phenomenon, not ONE.
The challenge was given and not one person can say how it is done; we do not expect anything except a logical and intelligent answer and yet NONE are forthcoming, are they?

They will NOT answer because they CANNOT answer and maintain any credibility intellectually, so they resort to the same old nonsense. TELL US HOW Criss Angel walked across the pool, with the evidence presented, or admit you are stumped. To say that hundreds of people would stay silent and be paid off is foolish. To say that there was a ramp or support that was invisible to bystanders and cameras is foolish. To say that we are not smart enough to figure out how an event could be done, other than as obvious, is foolish.

Since we cannot seem to get anything except off topic stuff like homosexual Indian guru's and stage illusionists and ' magicians ' like the pathetic Randi and other naysayers who cannot give an explanation any better than our fellows here at ATS who refuse to see the obvious , we can honestly claim the high ground in this argument and declare that:

Criss Angel, among others, has gifts, abilities, powers( or whatever description one cares to give that implies a force that transcends the ' normal ') that CANNOT be explained INTELLIGENTLY and RATIONALLY by those who doubt the veracity of the apparent cause of said powers.

NOT ONE person has refuted the facts: There are no props, strings, wires, supports or other aides manifest or apparent in the examples set above and previously. There is NO evidence of any assistance in these events and they stand as actual and verified events UNTIL someone can prove otherwise.

If I say that the sun is shining, it is up to the person who believes it is really night to throw open the door and prove me wrong.. You guys have thrown open the door and guess what? It is bright and sunny and the light is shining in !!! You thought it was dark BECAUSE YOU SIMPLY HAD YOUR EYES CLOSED !!!

ONCE MORE, FOR THE UMTEENTH TIME, someone please SPECIFICALLY tell us how it is done, in words and not a link..in words and not an allegory..in words that make sense to an intelligent person. If NOT, then have the decency to admit that you are wrong or at least that you are stumped..That would at least be honest..as it is, your excuses and lack of evidence makes one almost feel sorry for you..except that with the facts right in front of you and no intellectual retreat possible, it seems as though most naysayers ENJOY their lack of substance and revel in their opposition to logic. Sad.

Anyway, PR, until they can do better let's light a cigar ( or whatever !) and celebrate the victory of logic and fact over innuendo and supposition.

eyewitness86,

There is much more to this than meets the eye and if you go posting further here or on any JREF forum, you should first find out who trained Criss Angel.

I went through quite an experience challenging the JREF's on many issues that go far deeper than Criss Angel. Until you find out what I mean, your point will not be well delivered. I will not discuss this any further.

Good Luck.





[edit on 24-6-2007 by sweftl337]

Pardon my being new, but what are JREF's ? And if there is a good reason for me to have some knowledge before I continue , means that you are leaving me with no info and just an odd statement and a refusal to discuss it! Big help that is!

What difference does it make who trained Criss Angel? Many say that Randi is a pal of his, and maybe so. Pro wrestlers are buddies too , and talk trash during work hours..So what? The fact that Criss can perform these feats is apparent. The power he uses and where it comes from can be debatable but right now I have been trying to show debunkers how shallow and barren their excuses are. I am fronting the people off who cannot come up with specific alternative means, thats all.

Once people can accept the trruth, that Criss and others do not NEED OR USE props in the most astounding events they perform , then they can take the next step: trying it themselves or at least opening up the mind to new realities.

Good work eyewitness86



I don't smoke cigars (or anything else for that matter), so how about a toast with a glass of San Pellegrino - with a twist of lemon or lime?

DENY IGNORANCE.



[edit on 26-6-2007 by Paul_Richard]

Sure, buddy, anything you say !! One mans poison is another mans medicine !! We have the high ground now totally as we received NOT ONE reply of merit. Not one person could explain the events other than the same old ' invisible cranes ' or ' video tricks ' or ' paid off hundreds who always stay loyal ", etc. etc. ad nauseum.

If one of them had said that they were stumped, at least you could respect their honesty intellectually. It might say something about their cognitive and reasoning abilities, for sure, but at least they could avoid looking like desperate seekers of a way to avoid dealing with concepts that challenge them so deeply that they deny irrefutable evidence and what their own sense tell them !

Either Criss Angel has invisible strings attached to invisible supports when we walks up and down walls and walks on water and flys across long spaces, or he has the abilities to do these things inherently and does not need any props, invisible strings, etc. All one has to do is decide which of these two scenarios is most likely, and make a decision.

Of course, our opponents say that WE must DISPROVE the existence of the INVISIBLE strings and supports ; of course this is patently ridiculous as one cannot prove that something that is not there is actually NOT THERE when the witnesses themselves, when they see no strings or supports, simply say " Well, even though I cannot see it, it must be there because the alternative would be too much for me to consider or comprehend, so I will insist that the people who say that it is not there must PROVE that it is not there; I should not have to prove that it IS there". And they smugly waltz around claiming all the answers when their only defense is that the choices really are these :

Believe that the strings and supports are real even though invisible , or believe that the strings and supports are real even though invisible.

I realized a long time ago that in debating or arguing a point, one must isolate and hammer away on certain SPECIFIC points in order to pin the opponent down. Generalities are the refuge of the uninformed and usually unwilling to deal with specifics. In specifics lie the heart of any matter and the only way to beat them intellectually. Make them reply SPECIFICALLY to certain things and that is where they fail. They cannot defend their posititions in a convincing and credible way , so they point to examples that are not specific to the point, they answer with statements that do not specifically relate to the point, and wrap it all in a veneer of certainty and condescension intended to convince the superficial and ill informed.

No other choice is given by them; the strings MUST be there; their invisibility simply ceases to be a factor to them. At some point, their intellect just accepts the premise and shuts the door to logic and reason. From that point on, it is a losing battle to even talk to them as all they do is reguritate all of the same denials of reality with not even a new or amusing variation after all this time. deniers of reality are getting a bit boring. But drink up and celebrate the victory of truth and evidence over denial and refusal to acknowledge plain and irrefutable evidence. NOT ONE SPECIFIC REPLY OF MERIT !! Cheers!!

Eyewitness86,

Your post made me laugh out loud.

Ever consider being a lawyer?

You would make a good one



[edit on 29-6-2007 by Paul_Richard]

James Randi and his annoying JREF cult followers leave Criss Angel alone because Randi and Criss know each other from their associates in the early days when they were fooling the University Professors. They only attack those people who claim to have psychic abilities.

Sweft

Originally posted by sweftl337
You must look at each performance individually to be able to decide about the audience. Did you watch the spoon bending video I posted?

If you want to do what I did....you may also attempt to prove your case on the JREF forums. If you do this just be warned that they already know everything about Criss Angel and that James Randi and Criss Angel get along just fine. Criss learned allot from Banachek the master of spoon-bending.

Sweft[edit on 23-6-2007 by sweftl337]

Many Angel shows include Criss showing psychic abilities, like picking the lotto numbers, and reading Ice Cube's mind, to name a couple. So, if Randi is not attacking Criss's psychic claims, then did you mean Randi attacks only those who FALSELY claim psychic abilities?
And, regarding spoon bending, isn't Geller a better candidate for master? Considering he bent spoons, rings, etc. which belonged to others, while they held them, and submitted himself to extensive lab testing by highly regarded, top level university researchers, with positive results.
Werner Von Braun is one example of a Geller subject who was left puzzled by his powers of metal bending.
Randi's spoon bending expose doesn't come near to explaining countless Geller feats, done in front of some of the brightest scientific minds of today.

Gentleman, please read closely:

James Randi and Banachek were part of a project in which they managed to fool even the skeptics. youtube.com... James Randi is a decent stage magician but not all that extraordinary. However Banachek is incredible and very convincing as someone with Aetheric abilities. Banachek is 'the master' spoon bender and he's better and smoother than Criss Angel or Geller. Banachek has no Aetheric abilities to speak of, for he's a 'mentalist', plain and simple.

Criss Angel is not attacked because Banachek was one of those who trained him and therefor, he is not using Aetheric ability outside of "mentalism", stand-ins, trick photography etc.

Now, for those of you think I'm being unfair or shallow: You might consider the bigger picture and what I was hoping to see here was an effort to do so but thus I have not seen this method. I hope you do not mind my digressing in order to help explain a very serious problem surrounding James Randi and his JREF's today: I also wish to state clearly that people who oppose the N.W.O are generally not 'materialists' - although they are often brilliant scientists.

So....we should ask James Randi (and his ever so brilliant followers) to explain how when food enters into the organism, something of vegetable natures (that we eat) can be converted into flesh, muscle. bones etc.

If we place all the exact same ingredients into a beaker that would normally go into the stomach and intestines, having the exact same stomach acids, the same vibrations, the exact same stimulus, same enzymes and temperature, it still would not turn into anything more than a blob of vegetable mush. How would James Randi be able to explain this transformation without admitting that the "Ether", "Astral and "I" play an important role in matter?

Nothing of the 'vegetable' itself contains the proper nature by which to transform itself into flesh - yet somehow once inside the organism, it does transform!

So speaking 'truth plainly' is what James Randi and his clan cannot handle. The fact is he hopes these kinds of questions will never be asked so that he can continue to push materialism. He can only manipulate those who have already decided that we are nothing but molecules and matter like the modern scientists. Since both the scientists and lazy religious fanatics are both 'materialists' - one through rigid and literal religious dogmas (literally interpreting their Books word-per-word) and the other only seeing what can be measured with crude material tools - both are opposed to the Spirit.

James Randi is a materialist and as a typical philistine he sees nothing of the Spirit. While watching his mocking of homeopathy on youtube, I thought it was quite funny (but not ha-ha funny) that he knows about 5 min worth of solid research into the matter of energy medicine.

As a student of Anthroposophy and someone who has been involved in the occult sciences, I looked into the work of Mystics like Edgar Cayce, Rudolf Steiner and others and I noticed how James Randi and his JREF cult ONLY stick to attacking or debunking obvious frauds like Uri Geller. They also attack anyone who may oppose the N.W.O.

James Randi's write-up on Edgar Cayce's over 14,000 readings was juvenile at best and proves his inability to see beyond the material, or to use that center portion of his brain beyond the frontal portion. Too many potatoes perhaps? (No Mr. potato-head jokes here.) And now we also see his cult sticking their noses into everything else, from God to Chemical-trails, to Lima-beans, why?

If James Randy were here now, and we wished to give him a little scare - we'd tell him something like this:

"...there are many Anti-Christs' but only one Satan." Satan will be born in the west and will be the most brilliant scientific mind the world has ever seen. His words will dazzle you, his clear logic so brilliant and powerful that many will call him "Christ". The materialistic forces are the strongest in the West and by the mountain ranges they are even more intense.

Electricity is degraded light
Magnetism is degraded sound

He will have a receded forehead representing the 2 over-developed frontal lobes and this is 'materialism' of the brain. He most likely will grow bald very rapidly as his nature is all that which is philistine and dead. (not bashing all those bald folks though)

When he arrives he will convince the religious people to read their Bibles WORD PER WORD and see that it makes for chaos when no-one can agree upon which is allegorical and which parts are not. He will convince the scientists that "Atomism" is everything and that evolution is the only reality. Then he will merge all broken faiths together with the sciences and attempt, through various occult schools, to turn man into a Soulless and cunning machine. See any connections there to man's recent travels lately folks?

The enlarged forehead is something to "WATCH FOR" and something he cannot hide.

He'll appear something like this (yet more pleasant):

www.aobg.org...

Now add the beard and you may almost get another 'James Randi' or 'Darwin'.... does that seem about right and not also explain the reality of JREF's true purpose?



[edit on 30-6-2007 by sweftl337]

Now the JREF's claim to have been founded in 1996: www.randi.org...

Ironically, the JREF's do serve a purpose and they will in the end only help the truth-seekers by exhausting any other possible avenue to debunk faster than anyone else. This will in return, allow us to only dig up more solid leads. I should grant James Randi some credit also for being a gifted person - not a bad fellow really - although his followers can be really annoying.

Now see here when the JREF forums were first opened in Sept of 2001:

The internet archives date back to just after Sept 11 (around Sept 17) when they first opened up the forum.
web.archive.org...

You'll notice how in July-August 2001 there were no forums and they were started in Sept 2001.

We should dig around and see what can be salvalged from the archives. My assumption is that JREF was not setup to originally debunk 9-11 truth-seekers but perhaps the forum was?

Please also be aware if these realities people.
Sweft


[edit on 30-6-2007 by sweftl337]

Sweft,

Unless you have a video link for us that shows Randi or Banachek levitating at 500 feet and also flying over a tree at a golf course like Criss Angel does, and can explain in detail the "trick" behind it, then you have not provided us with a cogent argument.

I am dubious that you would even be able to distinguish a genuine Gift of Telekinesis in the first place.

Hi BlackGuardXIII,

You are quite right.

Uri Geller is an excellent example of someone with a Gift of Telekinesis who has undergone testing under strict laboratory conditions. Many scientists concluded that Uri's TK ability was genuine. There were even situations whereby people would watch a television broadcast of Uri and would have their eating utensils bend right in front of them - even with a show that was not LIVE (i.e., previously recorded)

Decades ago, Uri Geller's Gift may have been as powerful as that of Criss Angel but I don't think that is the case anymore. David Blaine's Gift of TK is also not as powerful as that of Criss Angel, which is why you don't see Blaine flying around over trees like Angel and also why Blaine has much less television coverage by comparison. Criss Angel boasts that he now is the most televised mystifier or "mindfreak" of all time. (Some people even think Angel is Jesus reincarnated. I do not.) Go figure.



[edit on 30-6-2007 by Paul_Richard]

PaulRichard: I am glad you enjoyed it. My parents always say that I should have been a lawyer! Too much studying for me.

Stiil no replies. The latest I could get out of all that was that it is all tricks and photo fakery, etc. You hit the nail on the head; they never will talk about the core issue or how it could possibly be done other than as obvious. All of these old stage magicians are passe'. If they cannot at least levitate in public with no props evident or possible, and alter material matter at will, and display advanced telekenesis, then they should head to St. Petersburg with all of the other retiree's and rest on their laurels; that is if they have any left after a sound thrashing from those of us who cannot be swayed from the core points.

Writing, words, do not allow for sleight of hand or distraction;this is where the rubber meets the road. Explain in plain English how it could possibly be done or concede the issue.

I've never seen Criss Angel levitating at 500 feet or over any trees while standing there in person. In fact, I never got the chance to look up and see that crane hovering above either. Considering that none of you saw him do it live, you base your conclusions upon 2 assumptions:

1) Someone saw him do it live and is trained in the occult to be able to see the difference between an illusion/trick and an occultic event

2) That when Criss Angel claims no trick photography is used he is being honest (to your standards of honesty) and not playing upon words or semantics.

Have YOU ever seen him levitating at 500 feet or over any trees and buildings, or do you know anyone who has seen this first hand?

If you do know someone who witnessed this live event, can they also EXPLAIN TO ME how those video's were not doctored, even when I already provided a couple links that show evidence of clouds being edited and bystanders disappearing below, while Criss Angel is supposedly levitating across the roof-top? Can that person tell me if what I saw on video was the exact same thing he saw on while standing there live?

Kind of reminds one of 9-11, did you see the planes hit the towers while standing there live or did you see it on Television?

Are you advising that I should 'ignore' the video evidence that shows clear tampering and merely assume "well someone must have seen it live"?

Don't assume that Criss Angel doesn't use camera tricks - I know very well that he does. Yes, some call this 'being dishonest' also but it is all in the perception here and Criss is not necessarily being dishonest from his point of view

I see too much selective reading going on here. Gentleman, are we now ignoring everything except your expectation that the video you saw on T.V, or on youtube.com can be validated as 100% proof? And proof validated no less than by someone not trained as either an occultist or a mentalist?

Is this what you intend to use to validate your claims?


[edit on 30-6-2007 by sweftl337]

Sweft,

Yes, we believe in the sincerity and honesty of people in this and related ATS threads who claim to have seen (in-person) Blaine and/or Angel perform levitations without props, wires, camera tricks, etc.

Originally posted by TheBandit795
Well, not Criss Angel... But ATS member Selective ID has seen David Blaine levitate.

I was in Chicago, last year, and saw David Blaine, not too far from the Sears tower, if I remember right, and he done the double foot levitation.
He was aprox 4 ft from me, and I bent down to look under his feet...nothing, there were no platforms, and nothing attatched to him from above.

How he done it? Hell if I know

So you believe Selective ID to be lying?

The following comments were made by 1 Tru Criss Angel Fan earlier in this thread:

Originally posted by 1 Tru Criss Angel Fan
... I Know Criss Angel Personally. I Live Really Close To Him. I Visited His Secret Cabaret One Day, And He Said, "Now Alex, I Want You To Close Your Eyes." He Gave Me A Second Or Two And He Said "Is That Completed?" And I Said, "Check!" He Said, "Now Stick Your Hands Out, Cross Your Feet, And Your Fingers." I Said "Check!" And He Said, "Now, Breathe. Gently." And Right Then, I Lifted Into The Air, He Yelled "Open Your Eyes, You Motherfugger!" I Opened My Eyes, And I Was Levitated 15 Feet Off The Ground.

1 Tru Criss Angel Fan is lying also?

We also believe that Criss Angel is being honest when he says that no camera or computer tricks are used in his levitations and manifestations, and that what is viewed on film is EXACTLY what is seen by eyewitnesses

All of the above is enough in itself to point to a Gift of Telekinesis.

But it goes deeper than that.

I have had direct experience with channeling telekinetic and healing energies, I have been around people with a Gift of Telekinesis (like The Amazing Kreskin for example), and I have the ability to psychically discriminate between a magician or illusionist and a true telekinetic

Experience is the best teacher.

You should try getting some.

If you think you, Randi, or any other magician can duplicate Criss Angel's high levitations without having a Gift of Telekinesis, feel free to invite all of us to the video taping of that event. We would all like to have you prove that you can deceive us into thinking you, Randi, etc., have magickal powers when in fact none of you do.

A number of us could use a good laugh.

How many times must I say it? Video tape that has not been proven to have been altered, edited or in any other way changed so that the apparent event is as other than obvious can be deemed reliable UNTIL PROVEN OTHERWISE.. PROVE that all of the witnesses are stupid and blind or relent.

What in the world do you mean by implying that if the witnesses are not specially trained in some esoteric way that they are unreliable? If you can disbelieve what you see with your own eyes and by using your senses and there is no apparent reason for such disbelief, then you will not believe no matter what.

If I HAD witnessed Criss Angel levitating, for example, ( and I believe that the 500 foot figure was really meant to be 50 feet) and saw no possible way a ' crane ' could be there, and I saw that no possible ' strings ' could be there, then you would still say that it must be my powers of perception. You cannot accept the obvious because it challenges something inside you so deeply ingrained that the possibility of your being wrong is too troubling personally for you and so you deny common sense and material facts in favor of a desperate and hopeless attempt to disprove the disprovable: What you see is what you get; Criss Angel can levitate without any assistance from props and for some reason this truth scares you into a rabid and unreasoning disbelief that is almost pathological in it's certainty despite the total lack of evidence to support such a belief.

Perhaps if you were able to examine some of these deep seated fears of new paradigms, you might be better able to discern reality and make informed judgements concerning evidence and reason. Good luck.