criss angel discussion...

Originally posted by eyewitness86
Like I keep on saying, please, just once someone SPECIFICALLY show us how Criss and the others are performing these events if in fact it is all smoke and mirrors. Explain the walk on water, please. Why do all of the naysayers stay silent on this? All they can do is point to a comment that obviously has deeper meaning than the obvious...if THIS is all of the proof they have then we win, hands down. In a formal debate, the skeptics would be laughed off the stage for refusing to supply intelligent alternative answers yet still insisting that it all must somehow be a ' hoax ' or ' illusion '. The fact that they cannot explain the ' hoax or illusion ' is that they would have to reach so deeply into the ridiculous for an excuse that the real events become all the more credible due to the lack of an articulate and sensible refutation of the obvious.

rrrrr, ummmmm, Chris Angel is a magician, he preforms tricks and illusions. If we knew how all the tricks and illusions were preformed he wouldn't be a very good magician and most certainly wouldn't have his own TV special. Just because people don't know exactly how his illusions are preformed shouldn't make you jump to the conclusion that he has super powers or that the laws of physics no longer apply to mr. Angel.

I don't know exactly how David Copperfield made the statue of liberty disappear but I can assure you that he didn't really send it into another plane of existence for the length of his illusion.

He is an illusionist, a very good illusionist, but still just an illusionist. No super powers, no control over the physical universe, no ability to suspend the laws of this world for the duration of his tricks and illusions.

Again, it is not logical to assume that Mr. Angel, the magician, has supernatural powers, just because we can't explain how he preforms his ILLUSIONS.

Originally posted by kinglizard
I don't know exactly how David Copperfield made the statue of liberty disappear but I can assure you that he didn't really send it into another plane of existence for the length of his illusion.

I do.

That is a well-known trick.

The audience was on a rotating stage. It was simply a matter of misdirection that produced the illusion that the Statue of Liberty disappeared.

David Copperfield has no Gift of Telekinesis. He is just an illusionist.



[edit on 23-6-2007 by Paul_Richard]

It was just an example and the only other illusion that came to mind. I actually knew how it was preformed but that wasn't the point. The point was that these people are trained in the art of illusion, slight of hand and misdirection and just because we (the audience) don't know how all illusions are preformed doesn't mean that the logical explanation is that they have "super powers" and can suspend and twist the laws of this universe.

Oh Dear !

` eyewitness ` and others seem to totally fail to grasp the concept of burden of proof - which firmly rests with the [ b] positive claimant

EVERYONE of angels videos contains major discraprancies which are most logically attributed to

there is no [ reason for them to be there if he was actually a genuine talent

and a genuine paranormal practicioner would actually take steps to promote transparency

wheras angel preforms obsufaction after obsfucation

Originally posted by kinglizard
It was just an example and the only other illusion that came to mind. I actually knew how it was preformed but that wasn't the point. The point was that these people are trained in the art of illusion, slight of hand and misdirection and just because we (the audience) don't know how all illusions are preformed doesn't mean that the logical explanation is that they have "super powers" and can suspend and twist the laws of this universe.

So let me get this straight, if I may.

You, who have claimed to have been helped by Jesus to ascend from your body after a prolonged and serious illness and to then visit heaven - which you posted about extensively in BTS - are not open to the idea that others may also have experienced supernatural events and that Gifts of the Spirit, like your temporary Gift of Astral Projection, do not exist.

Any particular reason why you claim exclusivity to supernatural events and Gifts of the Spirit?

Or is that just a Christian thing between you and Jesus?



[edit on 23-6-2007 by Paul_Richard]

My experience was spiritual, not physical...and yes it is a Christian thing.

Don't get me wrong, if you want to believe the magician Chris Angel can suspend the physical laws of this Universe because you don't know how he preforms his tricks please feel free.

Does that somehow legitimize your own personal claims of supernatural ability?

Originally posted by kinglizard
Don't get me wrong, if you want to believe the magician Chris Angel can suspend the physical laws of this Universe because you don't know how he preforms his tricks please feel free.

You mean like Jesus did?

Originally posted by kinglizard
My experience was spiritual, not physical...and yes it is a Christian thing.

So your spiritual experience of being involved in supernatural events and Gifts of the Spirit is limited only to Christians?

Why is that?



[edit on 23-6-2007 by Paul_Richard]

Paul,

Faith is not about performing magic tricks and we should leave that part separate for the moment. We can ask ourselves why doesn't James Randi go after Criss Angel. It's not only because Criss Angel never claimed he was psychic, as I'm sure that Randi would still place him on his hit-list but also because Criss Angel was in touch with the people that Randi surrounded himself and associated with also.

I spend time looking into Criss Angel and he does have actors in many of his live performances. His job is to entertain and he does just that and if he can make you cheer and smile then he has accomplished much.

Several of you would like to know: Is Criss Angel an adept using Ether's to manipulate during his performances? No, not in his performances.

Originally posted by sweftl337
Paul,

Faith is not about performing magic tricks and we should leave that part separate for the moment. We can ask ourselves why doesn't James Randi go after Criss Angel. It's not only because Criss Angel never claimed he was psychic, as I'm sure that Randi would still place him on his hit-list but also because Criss Angel was in touch with the people that Randi surrounded himself and associated with also.

As I stated before, Criss Angel doesn't claim that he has psychic powers precisely because he prefers to laugh all the way to the bank, which he does.
[EDIT: In the referenced audio interview of Criss Angel, he says that his Mindfreak DVD is presently the biggest selling A&E DVD at Best Buy]

First comes the telekinetic miracles, then comes the faith.

Not the other way around.

[edit on 23-6-2007 by Paul_Richard]

Now you are comparing the illusionist Chris Angel to Jesus lol....boy this conversation went south in a hurry.

Does the fact that Chris Angel bills himself a preforming magician and belongs to the international brotherhood of magicians as well as the World Famous members only Hollywood magic Castle for practicing illusionists mean anything to you? How about the fact that in his youth his biggest influences were Harry Houdini and Aldo Richiardi.

What came first...his magic tricks or his superpowers?



[edit on 6/23/2007 by kinglizard]

Miracles are never 'performed' they are 'phenomena' that can be attributed to that which is already existing within man's inner nature and granted through God's Grace. Life itself is a miracle to behold - we do not need to walk on water to see this miracle every second.

A miracle is not beholden to only that which is externally witnessed and thus we should leave one's faith separate. Why? Because you never saw Jesus walk on water - and you never saw Criss Angel do it either.

Originally posted by kinglizard
Now you are comparing the illusionist Chris Angel to Jesus lol....boy this conversation went south in a hurry.

Both the prophet Issa/Jesus and Criss Angel have had people believe that they can walk on water, levitate, and perform other telekinetic miracles. Thereby making the comparison between them a legitimate one

Originally posted by kinglizard
Does the fact that Chris Angel bills himself a preforming magician and belongs to the international brotherhood of magicians as well as the World Famous members only Hollywood magic Castle for practicing illusionists mean anything to you?

For those who can see through the facade, it only means that Angel is a shrewd business operator.

Originally posted by kinglizard
How about the fact that in his youth his biggest magic influences were Harry Houdini and Aldo Richiardi.

That is irrelevant. If I had a Gift of TK I might also seek to get rich by becoming an illusionist or mystifier and study up on successful ones. Of course, if my Gift was powerful enough I wouldn't even need the money.

Harry Houdini was also a big influence on David Blaine. Once Blaine became rich from his own Gifts, he bought Houdini's mansion. Nice place. Kinda creepy. You should see it.

Originally posted by kinglizard
What came first...his magic or his superpowers?

If you do some research on Criss Angel, his unusual abilities first started as a boy. He did things that one cannot do from buying supplies at a local magic shop. Hey...I went to magic shops myself as a kid.

But you are still dodging my pertinent questions.

If we are to believe that your NDE was real, then why are you not open to the idea that Criss Angel could possibly have a Gift of Telekinesis?

Furthermore, isn't it stated in the Bible that Jesus said that we can all learn to do what he does?

Or is Jesus the only one allowed to have powerful Gifts of the Spirit?

If so...then why?

And what about the telekinetic miracles attributed to other prophets in other religions, like Sai Baba for example? He used to be referred to as The Christ of India (some still believe that) because he is documented to having duplicated every miracle attributed to Jesus

If Sai Baba had Gifts comparable to Jesus also, then why can't others have them as well?

Like Criss Angel?

Or is this simply a matter of Christian prejudice in promoting the falsehood that Jesus is the only one, contrary to evidence, that can ever have a powerful Gift of the Spirit?



[edit on 23-6-2007 by Paul_Richard]

Paul,

Take a look at Svein Rygh performing a spoon bending trick: youtube.com...

Also watch Banachek: youtube.com...

Banachek, Svein Rygh, James Randi, Criss Angel are in a similar category of being 'Mentalists'. That is why James Randi and his JREF cult followers do not bother Criss Angel.

The JREF's ignore their buddies, attack the fake psychic's and usually prove their case: youtube.com...

Yet, the JREF's fail at debunking real psychic's and that is where we all SHOULD be focusing our attention. The JREF's will not be so kind in answering your questions because they are part of another serious problem which I cannot get into at the moment.

Sweft

Sweft,

Please provide us a cogent argument or explanation as to how Criss Angel levitates high in the air without the help of wires, props, helicopters, etc.

Originally posted by Paul_Richard
Sweft,

Please provide us a cogent argument or explanation as to how Criss Angel levitates high in the air without the help of wires, props, helicopters, etc.

So again, you believe the illusionist Chris Angil has superpowers because his audience can't explain how his illusions were preformed. Sounds logical.

Edit: I can't believe I'm actually involving myself in this conversation....sheesh....I think I'll end it here.



[edit on 6/23/2007 by kinglizard]

Originally posted by Paul_Richard
Sweft,

Please provide us a cogent argument or explanation as to how Criss Angel levitates high in the air without the help of wires, props, helicopters, etc.

Paul, I'm trying to help....but you need to watch the links I provided and also see this one. youtube.com...

The flying across the buildings has been debunked and he is using camera tricks. The live is often done with actors/stand-ins.

Originally posted by kinglizard
So again, you believe the illusionist Chris Angil has superpowers because his audience can't explain how his illusions were preformed.

You mean like you believe that your NDE was not a self-deluded fantasy and that the prophet Issa/Jesus has superpowers?

Originally posted by kinglizard
Edit: I can't believe I'm actually involving myself in this conversation....sheesh....I think I'll end it here.

Criss Angel, Issa, Sai Baba, David Blaine, and a host of others who have or had a Gift of Telekinesis, were or are only angel prophets at best

None of them were or are highly evolved.

It just means that a Group Entity or discarnate community worked through them and around them to further their particular agenda.

Sai Baba is not part of that group of Illusionists/Mentalists.

Sweft,

I already saw that video.

Now explain the reaction of the hundreds of people who saw him do his many feet levitations.

And don't tell me that they were all paid off.

As eyewitness86 says, that argument simply doesn't wash.

Originally posted by sweftl337
Sai Baba is not part of that group of Illusionists/Mentalists.

True.

But Sai Baba is documented to have many Gifts of the Spirit. Do a Net search.

Since this is a discussion about Criss Angel possibly having a Gift of Telekinesis, then references to others purportedly having one are also valid.