Why do some people feel the need to post outright lies about Masons and Masonry?

Originally posted by crusader
I am not talking any nonsense , this is facts! I know the man, we do business together at times, He 's of asian descent, and is an exporter, listen the i have even went to the guy dumba** lodge meetings twice, invited me, (Yawwwn......) anyway, I have facts, what do you need for me to back my claim?

Obviously more than you can provide.

So he's a successful businessman. Doesn't mean he got it from being in a Lodge...besides Masonic Lodge meetings are for MASONS only.

NO visitors...private...SECRET (that burns ol pepsi up, by the way)...so unless you attended an officer-installation ceremony I guess your friend must belong to some other Lodge and not Masonry.

I'll bet that's it. This buddy of yours stole $500 million dollars from the Moose Lodge! You'd better call the PO-LEECE!!!!

what a pathetic joke...! but anyway, it's worth laughing at!

But you still ahven't answered my question

Originally posted by crusader
what a pathetic joke...! but anyway, it's worth laughing at!

But you still ahven't answered my question

What question is that? I went back 3 pages and all I see is you saying Masonry is lies...Masonry is deception...Masonry is denial. Those aren't questions..they're personal claims with nothing to substantiate them.

You made the very laughable claim that Masonry was on trial before some self-proclaimed "High Court" or some such nonsense and the only thing I saw with a question mark behind it was:

"If it was for development of Character, why don't they join a monastery?"

..and I've already responded to that. I'm not Roman Catholic and I'll take no vows of chastity (being married with children and all)

So what's your question? I'll try to answer it (or make fun of it, whichever seems more appropriate.)




[edit on 28-10-2005 by senrak]

This gets more interesting by the page. I just loooove this thread! My daddy is better than your daddy. That's what it sounds like to me. Man who needs television with this much entertainment. Let's get the score so far. Crusader/Pepsi __2 Masons 50. Oh that's not the score of who's winning but just how much they are outnumbered on this thread. I always liked betting on the underdogs so Go Crusader/Pepsi!!!

Originally posted by Souljah

Originally posted by The Axeman
WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY?!?!

Why do people come to a forum named, ABOVE TOP SECRET?

To check the local weather?

OR the latest Football results?

I dont Think So!

Hi Soul,
Just wanted to applaud your link on hatred, very good, is that yours?

Masonry!!! I have my own story about that and it is not pretty, so I won't post it here becuase everyone seems to agree that masonry is a ligit practice.
Wren



[edit on 21/5/05 by Souljah]

Originally posted by crusader
Well axeman I have read and researched alot, and what i came up with was mountains of dirt, and piling evidence sjky high about freemasonry, that you all seem to know about but refuse to acknowledge it.

You have provided nothing of the sort here. I'd be interested to see just what kind of reading and "research" you have done on the subject. You seem to be lacking a fundamental understanding of what Masonry is and what it is about. Not that you are the only one, but you are the only one right now who is stomping and hollering "Masons are evil! Masons are deceptive! Mason are this or Masons are that!" All the while providing no verifyable information to back that position up.

You know, I'm easy to get along with, I'll tell you what; No need to post a plethora of information or websites, quotes from books on the subject or anything like that. Right here, right now, I challenge you to present, in your own words, WHY you hate Freemasonry so much. I want a thought out, reasonable explanation of why you think Masons and Masonry are the things you claim. Don't regurgiutate (and I will be able to tell, 'cause I've seen it all by now), but explain to me why it is that you feel the way you do. So far all you've done is make accusations with no apparent foundation. You say you've read and researched the subject and claim to have a "pile of evidence," so let's hear it. Make your case, Mr. Prosecutor.

Oh boy.. Anyway, i have known a couple of freemasons, for example, my great grandfather, my foolish cousin, as well as my best friend, who has used Masonry to get a fortune, to the tune of $500 million US dollars. oh by the way he uses his masonic connections to build his wealth, and protect himself.

So your best friend is a Mason, yet Masons lie and decieve and are all-around unscrupulous, right? Rrrrrrriiiiiiiiight...

any questions?

See above. I look forward to your response.

This is your last chance for credibility, because thus far you have earned none. If you can't even cogently express what troubles you about the fraternity, how do expect to ever be taken seriously by anyone?

Oh yeah, faltor12001: Last I counted, there were only about 10 (give or take one or two) Masons on this board, and most of them aren't "regulars." There are at least that many here who could be classified as anti-Mason, so the odds seem pretty fair to me. The reason it may seem that we outnumber the opposition is because we have the distinct advantage of credible, verifiable information and personal experience on our side. People come here and post nonsense, and we usually adress each point with facts and commentary to support our position. It doesn't take a genuius to figure out who is going to come out on top.

Pepsi and Crusader are not the first, and cetainly won't be the last of their kind to come through here, and I for one am grateful. Why? 1) It has an intrinsic entertainment value, and 2) It keeps me sharp and keeps me learning about the Craft. The best way to learn is to study and write about the topic, and this site provides me with that very opportunity. Alot of people ask why Masons come here, so now you know why I personally do.

So, Crusader, you're up. It shouldn't be hard, considering how vehemently opposed to Masonry you are.

[edit on 10/28/05 by The Axeman]

Originally posted by The Axeman


Oh yeah, faltor12001: Last I counted, there were only about 10 (give or take one or two) Masons on this board, and most of them aren't "regulars." There are at least that many here who could be classified as anti-Mason, so the odds seem pretty fair to me. The reason it may seem that we outnumber the opposition is because we have the distinct advantage of credible, verifiable information and personal experience on our side. People come here and post nonsense, and we usually adress each point with facts and commentary to support our position. It doesn't take a genuius to figure out who is going to come out on top.

Pepsi and Crusader are not the first, and cetainly won't be the last of their kind to come through here, and I for one am grateful. Why? 1) It has an intrinsic entertainment value, and 2) It keeps me sharp and keeps me learning about the Craft. The best way to learn is to study and write about the topic, and this site provides me with that very opportunity. Alot of people ask why Masons come here, so now you know why I personally do.

So, Crusader, you're up. It shouldn't be hard, considering how vehemently opposed to Masonry you are.

[edit on 10/28/05 by The Axeman]

Awe I was just having a little fun there axeman. I'm just glad that someone actually recognized that I was even in here. Thanks for the reply. However, I have had some previous questions before. I am neutral in all this but am very curious about things. Perhaps you could answer those previous questions for me. Plus a few of your favorite sites to learn about freemasonry would be of some help. I have tried to look up some sites but always seem to get the conspiracy ones. Again thanks for the reply.

Originally posted by pepsi78
u'r twisting my words , you say it's a lie and i have no way of knowing if it's a lie, if i will find it to be a lie i will have the same opinion has you if not i will sustain my opinion that i curently have.

pepsi,

I'd be extremely interested to know how I'm twisting your words. You said:

Originally posted by pepsi78
A lie to you might mean the true story to me if i really belive it senrak.

and I said:

Originally posted by senrak
No. A lie is a lie, whether you BELIEVE it or not. Believing it doesn't make it truth for heaven's sake.

Since you're so wont to believe things that are in print, let's look at the word "lie" (from the finest of sources; the Oxford English Dictionary)

------------------------
Lie : An act or instance of lying; a false statement made with intent to deceive; a criminal falsehood. Phrase, to tell (formerly to make) a lie. Also, without lie, no lie, truly (often as an expletive in ME. poetry; cf. without fable).
In mod. use, the word is normally a violent expression of moral reprobation, which in polite conversation tends to be avoided, the synonyms falsehood and untruth being often substituted as relatively euphemistic.
-------------------------

Pretty clear cut, isn't it? So, I stand by what I said. You may wish to BELIEVE that a lie is true, but your believing it doesn't make it true.

You say Masonry is devil-worship and evil, yet you are NOT a Freemason.

I AM a Freemason and have been for 16 years, so who'd know the truth (truth: opposite of lie) better than me and other actual Freemasons?

crusader claims it's deceptive. Tell me how can ACTIVE PARTICIPATING Members be deceived and OUTSIDERS (non-Masons) know the truth? That's absurd.

Here are some facts for you.

There is NO worship of ANY kind in ANY Masonic meeting.

It is a FRATERNAL society.

It is not (as you claim) a religion.

It has no so-called "plan of salvation" Religions tend to guarantee their members admission to Heaven (i.e. eternal life) after they die an earthly death. Masonry makes no such claim.

Masonry does however (as has been said here over and over) require that her members BELIEVE in God. ONE God...the Creator and Sustainer of all.

That being said, if you know ANYTHING about Satanism, you'll know that Satan (the devil, lucifer, whatever you want to call him) is NOT considered a God NOR is he considered the Creator.

SO....it would be SILLY for Masons (who are required to believe in God, the Creator of all) to worship Satan, now wouldn't it?

Are there secrets? Sure there are...but it's not the rituals or modes of recognition. I haven't seen EVERY degree on-line or in print, but most of them or a variation of them are readily available to those who are nosy enough to look for them. As I've said earlier, the only real secret is in a Mason's heart and that's a secret that cannot be told, it can only be experienced and the outsider will never and CAN never understand that, so I guess the answer to the original question:

"Why do some people feel the need to post outright LIES about Masons and Masonry?"

is the non-Mason cannot comprehend the TRUTH about Masonry so he compensates his lack of knowledge by making assumptions and spreading untruths. That, pepsi, is a true shame. [sigh]

[edit for format]

[edit on 29-10-2005 by senrak]

maybe my english does suck senrak
A lie to you might mean the true story to me if i really belive it senrak
what i really ment was:
you say it's a lie and i have no way of knowing if it's a lie, if i will find it to be a lie i will have the same opinion has you if not i will sustain my opinion that i curently have.


----
I dont need anybody senrak to convince me, when i make up my mind i make it on my own decision and not with any influence.

I dont need silly emotions to judge my judgement they cant influence me
and no body can, i like to think that i am independent actuly from my self
from my instincts when i think of something.
And i really think of it before i take a decision.
Senrak the only reason that i didint post was because i didint want to.
And i got alot to post if i really wanted.
I just wanted a opinion maybe on how you people think and not on the other matter not that i dont belive it has i told you i have a opinion.

Originally posted by pepsi78
what i really ment was:
you say it's a lie and i have no way of knowing if it's a lie, if i will find it to be a lie i will have the same opinion has you if not i will sustain my opinion that i curently have.

Pepsi,

I'll agree with you on that one. That's why I posted the information, so maybe you'll get some answers to your questions. As I said in the earlier post, yes there are secrets in Freemasonry, but what you're trying to find out is NOT a secret.

We're NOT evil. We DON'T worship Satan. What can we do to make you believe that? I'd love for you to know the truth.

I dont need anybody senrak to convince me, when i make up my mind i make it on my own decision and not with any influence.

Can you not be influenced by the truth? That would seem logical to me.

And i really think of it before i take a decision.

That's good. That's the way it SHOULD be. So THINK about this. You're claiming many things about Masonry but you have nothing but your own emotions to base it on. You say it's a religion, but you've yet to PROVE it's a religion...you just SAY so. I can say the moon's made of green cheese but that doesn't make it so.

Senrak the only reason that i didint post was because i didint want to.
And i got alot to post if i really wanted.

err...that's fine with me. I'm not stopping you.

I just wanted a opinion maybe on how you people think and not on the other matter not that i dont belive it has i told you i have a opinion.

"you people" is that the evil, devil-worshipping Masons or is it just "us guys"?

So....in previous posts you mentioned the Eye & the Pyramid as proof Masonry is a religion.

With permission from the author, S. Brent Morris, Ph.D. of Washington D.C., I'm posting a bit of information here that I think you'll find very informative.

Sorry for the long post, but this pertains to the subject matter at hand.

Web-site: web.mit.edu...

From the Short Talk Bulletin of the Masonic Service Association of the United States


The Eye in the Pyramid
By: S. Brent Morris, P.M.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

HISTORIANS must be cautious about many well-known "facts." George Washington chopped down a cherry tree when a boy and confessed the deed to his father. Abner Doubleday invented the game of baseball. Freemasons inserted some of their emblems (chief among them the eye in the pyramid) into the reverse of the Great Seal of the United States. These historical "facts" are widely popular, commonly accepted, and equally false.

The eye in the pyramid (emblazoned on the dollar bill, no less) is often cited as "evidence" that sinister conspiracies abound which will impose a "New World Order" on an unsuspecting populace. Depending on whom you hear it from, the Masons are planning the takeover themselves, or are working in concert with European bankers, or are leading (or perhaps being led by) the Illuminati (whoever they are). The notion of a world-wide Masonic conspiracy would be laughable, if it weren't being repeated with such earnest gullibility by conspiracists like Pat Robertson.

Sadly, Masons are sometimes counted among the gullible who repeat the tall tale of the eye in the pyramid, often with a touch of pride. They may be guilty of nothing worse than innocently puffing the importance of their fraternity (as well as themselves), but they're guilty nonetheless. The time has come to state the truth plainly and simply!

The Great Seal of the United States is not a Masonic emblem, nor does it contain hidden Masonic symbols.

The details are there for anyone to check, who's willing to rely on historical fact, rather than hysterical fiction.

Benjamin Franklin was the only Mason on the first design committee, and his suggestions had no Masonic content.
None of the final designers of the seal were Masons.
The interpretation of the eye on the seal is subtly different from the interpretation used by Masons.
The eye in the pyramid is not nor has it ever been a Masonic symbol.
The First Committee
On Independence Day, 1776 a committee was created to design a seal for the new American nation. The committee's members were Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, and John Adams, with Pierre Du Simitiere as artist and consultant[1]. Of the four men involved, only Benjamin Franklin was a Mason, and he contributed nothing of a Masonic nature to the committee's proposed design for a seal.

Du Simitiere, the committee's consultant and a non-Mason, contributed several major design features that made their way into the ultimate design of the seal: 'the shield, E Pluribus Unum, MDCCLXXVI, and the eye of providence in a triangle."[2] The eye of providence on the seal thus can be traced, not to the Masons, but to a non-Mason consultant to the committee.

"The single eye was a well-established artistic convention for an 'omniscient Ubiquitous Deity' in the medallic art of the Renaissance. Du Simitiere, who suggested using the symbol, collected art books and was familiar with the artistic and ornamental devices used in Renaissance art."[3] This was the same cultural iconography that eventually led Masons to add the all-seeing eye to their symbols.

The Second and Third Committees
Congress declined the first committees suggestions as well as those of its 1780 committee. Francis Hopkinson, consultant to the second committee, had several ideas that eventually made it into the seal: "white and red stripes with- in a blue background for the shield, a radiant constellation of thirteen stars, and an olive branch."[4] Hopkinson's greatest contribution to the current seal came from his layout of a 1778 50-dollar colonial note in which he used an unfinished pyramid in the design. The third and last seal committee of 1782 produced a design that finally satisfied Congress. Charles Thomson, Secretary of Congress, and William Barton, artist and consultant, borrowed from earlier designs and sketched what at length became the United States Seal.

The misinterpretation of the seal as a Masonic emblem may have been first introduced a century later in 1884. Harvard Professor Eliot Norton wrote that the reverse was 'practically incapable of effective treatment; it can hardly, (however artistically treated by the designer), look otherwise than as a dull emblem of a Masonic fraternity.[5]

Interpreting the Symbol
The "Remarks and Explanations" of Thomson and Barton are the only explanation of the symbols' meaning. Despite what anti-Masons may believe, there's no reason to doubt the interpretation accepted by the Congress.

The Pyramid signified Strength and Duration: The Eye over it & the Motto allude to the many signal interpositions of providence in favor of the American cause.[6]

The committees and consultants who designed the great Seal of the United States contained only one Mason, Benjamin Franklin. The only possibly Masonic design element among the very many on the seal is the eye of providence, and the interpretation of it by the designers is different from that used by Masons. The eye on the seal represents an active intervention of God in the affairs of men, while the Masonic symbol stands for a passive awareness by God of the activities of men.

The first "official" use and definition of the all-seeing eye as a Masonic symbol seems to have come in 1797 with The Freemasons Monitor of Thomas Smith Webb -- 14 years after Congress adopted the design for the seal. Here's how Webb explains the symbol.

"[A]nd although our thoughts, words and actions, may be hidden from the eyes of man, yet that All-Seeing Eye, whom the Sun, Moon and Stars obey, and under whose watchful care even comets perform their stupendous revolutions, pervades the inmost recesses of the human heart, will reward us according to our merits."[7]

The Eye in the Pyramid
Besides the subtly different interpretations of the symbol, it is notable that Webb did not describe the eye as being in a triangle. Jeremy Ladd Cross published The True Masonic Chart or Hieroglyphic Monitor in 1819, essentially an illustrated version of Webb's Monitor. In this first "official" depiction of Webb's symbol, Cross had illustrator Amos Doolittle depict the eye surrounded by a semicircular glory.[8]

The all-seeing eye thus appears to be a rather recent addition to Masonic symbolism. It is not found in any of the Gothic Constitutions, written from about 1390 to 1730. The eye -- sometimes in a triangle, sometimes in clouds, but nearly always surrounded by a glory -- was a popular Masonic decorative device in the latter half of the 18th century. Its use as a design element seems to have been an artistic representation of the omniscience of God, rather than some generally accepted Masonic symbol.

Its meaning in all cases, however, was that commonly given it by society at large -- a reminder of the constant presence of God. For example, in 1614 the frontispiece of The History of the World by Walter Raleigh showed an eye in a cloud labeled "Providentia" overlooking a globe. It has not been suggested that Raleigh's story is a Masonic document despite the use of the all-seeing eye.

The eye of Providence was part of the common cultural iconography of the 17th and 18th centuries. When placed in a triangle, the eye went beyond a general representation of God to a strongly Trinitarian statement. It was during this period that Masonic ritual and symbolism evolved; and it is not surprising that many symbols common to and understood by the general society made their way into Masonic ceremonies. Masons may have preferred the triangle because of the frequent use of the number 3 in their ceremonies: three degrees, three original grand masters, three principal officers, and so on. Eventually the all-seeing eye came to be used officially by Masons as a symbol for God, but this happened towards the end of the eighteenth century, after congress had adopted the seal.

A pyramid, whether incomplete or finished, however, has never been a Masonic symbol. It has no generally accepted symbolic meaning, except perhaps permanence or mystery. The combining of the eye of providence overlooking an unfinished pyramid is a uniquely American, not Masonic, icon, and must be interpreted as its designers intended. It has no Masonic context.

Conclusion
It's hard to know what leads some to see Masonic conspiracies behind world events, but once that hypothesis is accepted, any jot and tittle can be misinterpreted as "evidence." The Great Seal of the United States is a classic example of such a misinterpretation, and some Masons are as guilty of the exaggeration as many anti-Masons.

The Great Seal and Masonic symbolism grew out of the same cultural milieu. While the all-seeing eye had been popularized in Masonic designs of the late eighteenth century, it did not achieve any sort of official recognition until Webb's 1797 Monitor. Whatever status the symbol may have had during the design of the Great Seal, it was not adopted or approved or endorsed by any Grand Lodge.

The seal's Eye of Providence and the Mason's All Seeing Eye each express Divine Omnipotence, but they are parallel uses of a shared icon, not a single symbol.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Notes
[1] Robert Hieronimus, America's Secret Destiny (Rochester, Vt.: Destiny Books, 1989), p. 48.

[2] Patterson and Dougall in Hieronimus, p. 48.

[3] Hieronimus, p. 81.

[4] Hieronimus, p. 51.

[5] Hieronimus, p. 57.

[6] C. Thomas and W. Barton in Hieronimus, p. 54.

[7] Thomas Smith Webb, The Freemasons Monitor or Illustrations of Masonry (Salem, Mass.: Cushing and Appleton, 1821), p. 66.

[8] Jeremy Ladd Cross, The True Masonic Chart or Hieroglyphic Monitor, 3rd ed. (New Haven, Conn.: By the Author, 1824), plate 22.

References
Cross, Jeremy Ladd. The True Masonic Chart or Hieroglyphic Monitor, 3rd ed. New Haven, Conn.: By the Author, 1824.

Hieronimus, Robert. America's Secret Destiny. Rochester, Vt.: Destiny Books, 1989.

Webb, Thomas Smith. The Freemasons Monitor or Illustrations of Masonry. Salem, Mass.: Cushing and Appleton, 1821.
----------------------------------------------

Regards,

[edit for grammar]















[edit on 29-10-2005 by senrak]

Senrak what are you talking about you have the sfinx on the
33 degree lodge in washinton dc
2 sfinxs seating at the entrance
Not only the sfinx is a very big simbol of aiciant egiptians it is the simbol of horus
horus had simbols one of them was the sfinx .
so see senrak it go's back to the same thing



[edit on 29-10-2005 by pepsi78]

Originally posted by pepsi78
Senrak what are you talking about you have the sfinx on the
33 degree lodge in washinton dc
2 sfinxs seating at the entrance
Not only the sfinx is a very big simbol of aiciant egiptians it is the simbol of horus
horus had simbols one of them was the sfinx .
so see senrak it go's back to the same thing
[edit on 29-10-2005 by pepsi78]

That "33 degree lodge" is the home of the Supreme Council of the Ancient & Accepted Scottish Rite of Freemasonry (Southern Jurisdiction) I've visited there on several occasions.

BUT...you're saying that because some ancient symbols (read: HISTORY) are used that it's evil????

Ever been to an Easter sun-rise service? Do you know the root of the word "Easter" ? I'll give you hint...NEITHER are Christian in origin, does that make them EVIL???? If so, maybe we should get rid of Easter, huh?

What about Christmas...a CHRISTIAN holiday...not originally and what do evergreens have to do with Christianity? Hmmmm...there's more than meets the "eye" here isn't there.

Conspiracy is afoot....no doubt.

Apparently you've missed this VERY important site:

www.srmason-sj.org...

because you can't get past the use of symbolism and are mistaking the use of symbolism for worship. Don't feel bad, it's a common error, particularly on the part of fundamentalists, but really, read the page, you might find it informative.





[edit on 29-10-2005 by senrak]

senrak is not that but the sfinx poits to horus the same guy
and not only that senrak most of u'r simbols come from there
the compas comes from there too

Originally posted by pepsi78
senrak is not that but the sfinx poits to horus the same guy
and not only that senrak most of u'r simbols come from there
the compas comes from there too

PLEASE read this site:

www.srmason-sj.org...

maybe it will clear up some confusion for you.

PLEASE

that does not clear out things senrak
when allmost all the simbols come from there than what more do you want
square &compas with the eagle is one of aicient egiptians most important symbols

Originally posted by pepsi78
that does not clear out things senrak
when allmost all the simbols come from there than what more do you want
square &compas with the eagle is one of aicient egiptians most important symbols

In the short amount of time it took you to post that, you could NOT possibly have read that page.

It's obvious that you've made up your mind long ago and do not really want to hear truth.

So be it.

I'm truly sorry you feel this way and won't open your eyes, but it's your business if wish to remain uninformed. There are many more just like you and yet the ediface of Freemasonry stands strong.

As far as I'm concerned our dialogue on this particular subject is terminated.

Pax Vobiscum!


[edit on 29-10-2005 by senrak]

here senrak
Albert Pike
The square... is a natural and appropriate Symbol of this earth
The hermaphroditic figure is the symbol of the double nature
anciently assigned to the Deity, as Generator and Producer,
as Brahm and Maya among the Arians, ORISIS and Isis among the
Egyptians. As the Sun was male, so the Moon was female
you see it bounds the name of the compas to names like orisis

all the things are from his father and son
even the compas is theirs


[edit on 29-10-2005 by pepsi78]

Originally posted by The Axeman

Originally posted by magnito_student
Why has this thread got to page 29 and 550+ replies is what I want to know. No disrespect ....but daymn

I dunno dude, honestly. But I guess it's better than having 29 one-page threads...

lol

I wish they would cut yall some slack. Like with any organization you got weird ones. Every freemason I have met has seemed to be a good person but like I said,,you always have some weird ones

it seems that you have a set of colection from horus and orisis of many many simbols
that is what you dont understand
and just please think like me will not do it
because think of me senrak what if i had on my tshirt saing satan and i would walk in a curch and i would tell the prist dont worry it's just a simbol.





[edit on 29-10-2005 by pepsi78]

Originally posted by pepsi78
it seems that you have a set of colection from horus and orisis of many many simbols
that is what you dont understand
and just please think like me will not do it
because think of me senrak what if i had on my tshirt saing satan and i would walk in a curch and i would tell the prist dont worry it's just a simbol.

pepsi,

Answer this:

Is the Cross a symbol of Christianity?

Yes or No? Is the Cross a SYMBOL of Christianity?

If the answer is yes, then answer this:

Do Christians WORSHIP the Cross?

Yes or No? Do Christians WORSHIP the Cross?

Think hard before you answer.

I'm trying to make a point that SYMBOLISM and WORSHIP are not the same thing....unless Christians do indeed WORSHIP the Cross.