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Why do some people feel the need to post outright lies about Masons and Masonry?

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posted on Nov, 1 2005 @ 03:03 PM
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is it just me or does nobody on this thread know how to spell? it makes others think that your claims lack the value of credibility. do masons really sodomize kids? if not then why did a.crowley brag about sodomizing hundreds of children? are these actual practices that are required for somebody to hit the ''33'' degree?

if sodomizing children isnt required. then is having sex with a demon required? it sounds wierd but this rumor has also been floating around.

wouldnt it be also wierd of those cath priests who were molesting children turned out to be freemasons? hmmm.

[edit on 1-11-2005 by topsecretombomb]




posted on Nov, 1 2005 @ 03:14 PM
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Originally posted by lost
oh, and boo masonry. why? -because its a lame excuse for the betterment of ones morality..... lies spread about it? maybe - maybe not... why bother arguing about it? -because a coupla sniffles here and there from idiots and more idiots who claim theyre gonna set everything straight - some real crusaders for justice, in their adamant ~denying of ignorance~ gonna teach the internet the truth about their secret society. ha!



Originally posted by crusader
are you all negleting the testimonies of former Masons? Or are you oblivious to the fact?

www.scripturesforamerica.org...



Originally posted by lost
crusader, i looked at the link - and it is one i can agree with. but it doesnt matter. there will be another 'masonry?' thread next week, which basically boils down to masons vs. non - masons disputing the ~facts~...


You guys. :shk:

Lost, did you read that whole article? I can safely and honestly say that I have never heard of such teachings in Freemasonry (i.e. worshipping the generative process, etc.). First of all, again, there is no worship in Freemasonry... of anything. Period. Secondly, that whole excerpt reeks of “spiritual elitism” and is in the same vein as most other anti-Masonic literature; gross assumptions, quoting out of context, and flat out BS.

I have to say though; at least it was a semi-unique angle. I had not come across those particular accusations before, but given my research and knowledge of the topic, I can dismiss the claims relatively easily. I’m not going to sit here and break down the article point by point; I don’t have time for one thing, and really there’s no reason to. People who have their minds made up will believe what they want, regardless of what I say, and frankly, I don’t care. People that are seeking the truth will ask questions, not post anti-Masonic/anti-Semitic websites, jump up and down and say “Look! Look! Freemasons are evil!” Rather they will ask questions and say something like well, this guy says such-and-such, what do you guys have to say about that? The ones who want to know the truth will look further than the first conspiracy page they come across; and if they don’t, well then they are not true Seekers.

While it is entertaining to banter with some people, I’m not naïve enough to think that they come here looking for the truth about Freemasonry; rather to jump on the coattails of other “researchers” and try to make Freemasons here prove they are innocent.



bottom line: if you join a secret society, better expect as many secrets told to you, to be KEPT FROM you. esoteric indeed.


Nonsense. It is up to you to discover whatever “secrets” there might be. That’s the point. It’s something that you realize and effect on yourself. The only secrets that might be “kept” from you are the ones you keep from yourself.

That, my friend, is the bottom line.



posted on Nov, 1 2005 @ 08:39 PM
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OMG... we're on the 33rd page!!! THE 33RD PAGE!!!... It's a conspiracy.. A conspiracy i tell you!!


But seriously.. why are we still here? this thread is waaaaaaaaaaaaaay (And most likely permanently) off topic... let it die already

[edit on 1-11-2005 by Becon of Light]



posted on Nov, 1 2005 @ 11:51 PM
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Originally posted by Becon of Light
OMG... we're on the 33rd page!!! THE 33RD PAGE!!!... It's a conspiracy.. A conspiracy i tell you!!


[...]


How is being on page 33 a CONSPIRACY? Oh, I get it. Humor. A jab at anyone who would dare voice an unpopular opinion or idea in the Secret Society thread. Really not quite an original attempt to belittle any of those silly people who would be so daring as to post anything conspiracy related on ATS of all places. Either way, I'm sure you ARE a 33 degree mason so I'm sure that you can BE SURE that all is well and boring in that clubhouse. Posts like yours kill threads. Not conspiracy posters or theoretical speculators.

Something else I've noticed in general at ATS. The lamer the joke or jab, the more smileys the poster seems to get off on using. Therefore, I'm not even going to use the eye-rolling face. Just look at it the next time you post on this thread. But why are you going to post again? You think it should die right?

[edit on 1-11-2005 by 2nd Hand Thoughts]



posted on Nov, 2 2005 @ 12:06 AM
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Acually i'm not a mason, 33rd degree or otherwise.. but i have seen a dozen cases where some theorist starts flipping out everytime the number 33 comes up in ANYTHING

And i think it should die because it has gotten way off topic

[edit on 2-11-2005 by Becon of Light]



posted on Nov, 2 2005 @ 02:03 AM
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alas, i too have been swept into the pointless vacume of masonic arguments, but here goes;

-i love how 'entered apprentices' who 'walk the path' (too funny)- can ramble on and on, wasting space and sylables -making more empty statements, to top everything off with haughty inverted garble as if to convince all those who read it of their mistaken profoundness. probably use a smiley too.

sorry, not convinced. its not profound; just more garbage.

how can something so eloquantly written, so deeply lack content? -i dont know either. 'lost'

yes axeman, i read the whole article. now that youre addressing me again (coulda sworn you said you were done with me?! ha), ill have you know i understood it as well. did you?

doesnt look like it. the article doesnt say masons all get infront of an idol called 'regenerative process' and worship it. what happens is a slow deception. it is the process bywhich a mans carnal desires are rewarded and fed until they become the individuals top priority. it is a slow process, that is laid on thicker and thicker, veiled in symbols and 'rites' with every rung the individual climbs. some masons are too genuinely good to ever succomb to the deception..... others keep climbing.

but youre not interested in those 'anti-masonry' sites. youre interested in genuine research arent you. away with those links! bring me something that supports my ideas already.

-whats that? dont care anymore? i thought you were gonna do your part to set everything straight. turn over all the lies spread about your boys club. what - the brownie points arent worth it??! c'mon axeman - bring whatever you got - give us your higher logic.... oh, i get it; you CANT.

but before you get upset by my post and chop it up refuting every other point i make, know this: I recognize that not every mason is an evil corrupt NWO supporting conspirist. MOST ARENT.

Also, I recognize that not all Jews are cabal supporting zionists. MOST ARENT.

Satan is smart enough that he doesnt just use masons. he doesnt just use christians. he doesnt just use jews. not islam, ufology, newage hippy BS or anyother faction of belief that can be skewed and mislead.

HE USES ALL. his reign has been prophesied. his banishment has too. dont worry - it will all be over shortly and none of this will matter anymore.

edit:


bottom line: if you join a secret society, better expect as many secrets told to you, to be KEPT FROM you. esoteric indeed.


Nonsense. It is up to you to discover whatever “secrets” there might be. That’s the point. It’s something that you realize and effect on yourself. The only secrets that might be “kept” from you are the ones you keep from yourself.

That, my friend, is the bottom line.


(??!) -so to help from keeping secrets from myself, i go and join a secret society? sorry axeman, youre wasting finger energy typing out that garble. nobody here is so childish to think that because you can flip my words upsidedown that you actually make sense. give it up. oh right - you did.


[edit on 2-11-2005 by lost]



posted on Nov, 2 2005 @ 01:00 PM
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Originally posted by lost
yes axeman, i read the whole article. now that youre addressing me again (coulda sworn you said you were done with me?! ha), ill have you know i understood it as well. did you?

doesnt look like it. the article doesnt say masons all get infront of an idol called 'regenerative process' and worship it. what happens is a slow deception. it is the process bywhich a mans carnal desires are rewarded and fed until they become the individuals top priority. it is a slow process, that is laid on thicker and thicker, veiled in symbols and 'rites' with every rung the individual climbs. some masons are too genuinely good to ever succomb to the deception..... others keep climbing.


But the point is that there is nothing to substantiate the claims made! The fact of the matter is that the lessons that Masonry inculcates are exactly opposite of what has been presented. We are taught to learn to circumscribe our desires and keep our passions within due bounds. In other words, we are taught to fight those carnal desires. And since you understood it so well, why don’t you explain to me just how those desires are rewarded and fed? I would say that by joining Masonry you will be both rewarded and fed (mmmmmm... roast beef...), but that’s about as far as it goes.


but youre not interested in those 'anti-masonry' sites. youre interested in genuine research arent you. away with those links! bring me something that supports my ideas already.


Quite the contrary. I am interested in anti-Masonic sites and materials for educational purposes. Not that I believe it, but it is good to know what the people who would try to denigrate the Craft have to say. Most times it makes me laugh. “Bring me something that supports my ideas already.” That sounds strikingly similar to the attitude displayed by anti-Masons when faced with logical and reasonable statements to refute whatever garbage they might be spouting at the time. Interesting...


-whats that? dont care anymore? i thought you were gonna do your part to set everything straight. turn over all the lies spread about your boys club. what - the brownie points arent worth it??! c'mon axeman - bring whatever you got - give us your higher logic.... oh, i get it; you CANT.


Heheh. Mistaken again. BTW, it's not "higher logic" to me; it's common sense. Anyway, what I said is that those people who already have their minds made up aren’t going to change their view on the matter because of some dude on an internet forum, and I don’t care. People who are open minded about the situation and may have heard some things around the net or wherever and are looking to get the opinion of people who are in a position to know will be more likely to listen and start researching for themselves. That’s what I care about. Not Necros, Crusader, Eudaimonia, or whoever is barking up our tree that particular week. The people who are interested in the TRUTH are who I write for. Those aforementioned people are merely a means to an end.


but before you get upset by my post and chop it up refuting every other point i make, know this: I recognize that not every mason is an evil corrupt NWO supporting conspirist. MOST ARENT.

Also, I recognize that not all Jews are cabal supporting zionists. MOST ARENT.


Well that’s good of you to say. I’d go so far as to say there probably are a few Masons who are conspirators; but I would also say that if they are, it’s not because of Masonry. What you fail to understand is that Freemasonry is adamantly opposed to anything resembling a NWO or any other form of despotic government. That goes against everything we stand for.


Satan is smart enough that he doesnt just use masons. he doesnt just use christians. he doesnt just use jews. not islam, ufology, newage hippy BS or anyother faction of belief that can be skewed and mislead.

HE USES ALL. his reign has been prophesied. his banishment has too. dont worry - it will all be over shortly and none of this will matter anymore.


Some would argue that Satan is a machination of Man, conceived to scare people into righteous conduct. It’s a matter of personal opinion and faith, but I highly doubt the existence of such a being. It’s a metaphor, man.


(??!) -so to help from keeping secrets from myself, i go and join a secret society? sorry axeman, youre wasting finger energy typing out that garble. nobody here is so childish to think that because you can flip my words upsidedown that you actually make sense. give it up. oh right - you did.


Me? Give up? Hardly.

No, I never said that you have to join any society, secret or otherwise, to learn the “Secrets.” You seem to be having trouble understanding what I am saying. People “keep secrets” from themselves by being content to be in the dark concerning the ways of the world, and the beauties of Nature. No, you don’t have to join anything; everything you could ever want to know is there for anyone to learn, if they have the aptitude and the desire.

Now whether or not those societies can help a person to find those things for themselves is a different question altogether.

[edit on 11/2/05 by The Axeman]



posted on Nov, 3 2005 @ 12:53 AM
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Some would argue that Satan is a machination of Man, conceived to scare people into righteous conduct. It’s a matter of personal opinion and faith, but I highly doubt the existence of such a being. It’s a metaphor, man.


some would argue....
some would eat garbage...
some are blind....
and some would just call him the grand architect of the universe.

done and done.

thanks axeman.

[edit on 3-11-2005 by lost]



posted on Nov, 3 2005 @ 08:33 AM
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I am new to this forum,but thought i would like to give MY opinion as to , are they good or bad.
I have been at the receiving end of both being helped and being hurt,neither times were i aware that they were involved in my life until a long time after,I was in a community whereas we were being targeted by our local community,trying to force us out of business(this made my wife seriously ill with a terminal illness),even the town hall was involved to make our situation worse,.When the person from the town hall (who i believe was a mason, though this was never mentioned) who first condemned us, after he listened to us ,and later we found out, checked us out ,realised we were telling the truth and was the end result of a conspiracy,he offered to help by suggesting i write a letter to the town hall,requesting for a permission which was not possible,we couldn,t believe our luck,all of a sudden we had help,which would NOT have been possible FULL STOP.That is why i honestly believe we were helped by the masons So i think Masons are good people.
Not all masons are good, a relation of mine is one,in public a great upstanding man ,but in private, i can,t think of a worse word than evil,but that is personal,and it will stay that way.



posted on Nov, 3 2005 @ 10:12 AM
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Originally posted by lost

Some would argue that Satan is a machination of Man, conceived to scare people into righteous conduct. It’s a matter of personal opinion and faith, but I highly doubt the existence of such a being. It’s a metaphor, man.


some would argue....
some would eat garbage...
some are blind....
and some would just call him the grand architect of the universe.

done and done.

thanks axeman.


Wow. Great response.


Just for the record that is my own personal opinion and belief, that I have held since waaaaaaay before I even knew what Masonry was. Like I said, I don’t care that you believe what you do, and nothing I could say could change that; but I will say this: You have a much distorted perception of what Masonry is and what it stands for if you think for one millisecond that “Satan” could EVER EVER EVER be equated to the Great Architect. It simply amazes me what absence of information and imagination will do people’s perspective.

Also, I find it interesting that the only part of my post you bothered to respond to was that.

*shrugs*

Adios, muchacho. Nice talking to you.

[edit on 11/3/05 by The Axeman]



posted on Nov, 4 2005 @ 01:16 AM
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'twas nice wasnt it. glad you liked it. btw, nice smiley, -i really like how you opted for the eye roller opposed to the wink this time. really.

so, you find it interesting that i choose not to engage in pointless arguments? glad to capture your attention. if it was worth it to me, i could do the copy paste quote thing, and tear your post apart. i could assume the position of 'high horse' and ride right through it, discounting every other sylable and make you read like a fool.... to someone. of course, thats all internet dramatics, -and its not condusive to debate. been there, done that.

why should i waste my time arguing ~facts~ that cannot be proven. you start this thread in the name of 'truth' etc. You say you write for the 'honest researcher.' are you so vain to think the 'honest researcher' needs your opinion? the blatantly biased opinion of a pawn mason?

its laughable really.

-about satan, cant compare the grand architect to him? EVER EVER EVER? why not? just a metaphoar remember? c'mon, "highly doubt sucha character exists etc.."

how highly do you doubt the 'grand architect' exists?

my point is, if youre so disgusted with the 'metaphorical character that is satan' - youre investing belief in his reality and discounting your previous statement that he is a mere 'metaphoar'.

all your contradictions aside, very basically - i will explain the juxtaposition satan would have with God if he had his way.

"the greatest trick the devil ever played - was to convince us he doesnt exist" -you're already believing that one. way to go.

who else might satan want us to discredit?

GOD.

when satan convinces humanity that neither he nor god exists - he can assume both titles under the guise of 'great architect of the universe.' and humanity will bow.

go on, bow to your false god. bla bla bla

but really, this isnt fun. nor does it have a point. you and i arguing like this. i highly doubt anyone else is reading, and youve already stated that ive already formed my opinion, as have you - so this is really just us bumping heads. i cannot prove satan exists. you cannot prove he doesnt. none of this matters. so, yeah.

-adios... you goin' somewhere?

[edit on 4-11-2005 by lost]



posted on Nov, 4 2005 @ 05:51 PM
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99.9% of the time i stay out of this forum

because if i have an opinion "That Masons are Bad Guys"
which i honestly believe they are

i am attacked relentlessly and my character is nearly assassinated by the mud slinging

so ill say my opinion and a fact
Opinion : "I think most masons are bad guys who lie alot"

Fact : "I will not return to this thread to read your assults on my opinion, because frankly i could predict exactly what you are going to say in responce to it, therefore it would be a waste of my time"

oh one little last tidbit

Dont Masons have lives? i mean, how could sebatwerk and his friends have all day *Literally All day long* to sit in front of a computer and argue agianst any anti-mason post?

Could they be getting PAID to sit here and defend masonry?
I would suspect so....but its just an opinion based on the suspicious behavior of particular posters

Anyways; whoever pays you guys to do this needs to fire the lot of you because your not very good at this; they should hire me because i could BS people 50000000 times better

now back to ignoring this rediculous forum of endless arguments...

Nuff' said



posted on Nov, 4 2005 @ 07:47 PM
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Originally posted by lost
"the greatest trick the devil ever played - was to convince us he doesnt exist" -you're already believing that one. way to go.


I'm glad you are pleased. Somehow I knew you were going to throw that out there. Who said that, BTW?

I was hoping that you might answer my direct request to you:


Originally posted by The Axeman
And since you understood it so well, why don’t you explain to me just how those desires are rewarded and fed?


That is, if you can.


-adios... you goin' somewhere?


Apparently not. I thought you were. "Done and done," was it?

Muzzleflash:

You are entitled to your opinion as are the rest of us. I would not attempt to flame you or attack your character, even though you have insulted me and my Brethren simply by posting said opinion. Usually, the ones who get that treatment are the ones who don't even try to elaborate, they just post their "opinions" to start a fight or an argument. Those that would like to engage in an adult conversation on the subject are treated with respect and courtesy. Take Saint4God for example. He is decidedly critical of Freemasonry, but he's not afraid to talk about it and he seems to genuinely be interested in what we have to say about Masonry. That's the difference between someone who is opposed to Masonry and a troll. Having said that...


Originally posted by muzzleflash
so ill say my opinion and a fact
Opinion : "I think most masons are bad guys who lie alot"


But why? What makes you believe that? That is what I try to get out of people, and most don't bother, for whatever reason. It's funny how people can complain about their character being attacked when they are attacking the character of millions of men all over the world collectively. Call me crazy, but that sounds like a big steaming pile of hypocrisy to me. So, you can dish it out, but you can't take it? Besides that, if your character is such that it can be threatened by some guy on an internet forum, perhaps you should take stock of yourself. I think we probably take more shots to our character, but it bothers me less than one would think. I know who and what I am, and that is a good man of good character. I am secure enough in that fact that I can present myself and my ideas here (not just say "I believe such-and-such," and not elaborate) and open myself up to attacks and criuticism, because my posts reflect the kind of person I am; because I am real here. I don't sugar-coat anything, and I'm not afraid of my character being challenged, because in the end, my personality and character are easily observed in my posts. The ones who might think otherwise usually base that opinion solely on the fact that I am a Mason, or in the past, because I was a supporter of Freemasonry.


Fact : "I will not return to this thread to read your assults on my opinion, because frankly i could predict exactly what you are going to say in responce to it, therefore it would be a waste of my time"


As is your right.

Even though you aren't coming back, allow me to clarify some things...


Dont Masons have lives?


Yes, they do.


i mean, how could sebatwerk and his friends have all day *Literally All day long* to sit in front of a computer and argue agianst any anti-mason post?


I don't think anyone here does that, honestly. Some days I have more time for ATS than others, but it's something I do at my leisure, a) because it often makes me laugh, and b) it provides the opportunity for me to write about the Craft; which, as any student knows, is a big help in regard to understanding your field of study. On top of that, the idea that someone might actually learn something from my posts is incentive enough.


Could they be getting PAID to sit here and defend masonry?
I would suspect so....but its just an opinion based on the suspicious behavior of particular posters


Heh. No, we don't.


Anyways; whoever pays you guys to do this needs to fire the lot of you because your not very good at this; they should hire me because i could BS people 50000000 times better


So you're a bull#ter. A very good one, at that. Congratulations.



now back to ignoring this rediculous forum of endless arguments...


Thanks for taking the time to post. See ya.

[edit on 11/4/05 by The Axeman]



posted on Nov, 4 2005 @ 07:52 PM
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Axeman, tell about Jah-Bul- on?



posted on Nov, 4 2005 @ 08:07 PM
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Originally posted by Nemo me impune lacessit
Axeman, tell about Jah-Bul- on?


Well, I'm not a member of the York Rite yet, which is where the word alledgedly appears. It is my understanding that the people who use that word to try to denegrate Freemasonry are of the impression that it is the name of the "Masonic god," which of course is in error because there is no "Masonic god."

I do have it on good authority that there is a similar word in one of the York Rite rituals, however it does not carry the meaning that anti-Masons attribute to it.

That's the best I can do. Like I said I'm not a R.A.M. yet.

[edit on 11/4/05 by The Axeman]



posted on Nov, 4 2005 @ 08:21 PM
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Would I be correct in assuming Jah: Jahweh the God of the Hebrews, Bul: Baal, the ancient Canaanite fertility God associated with 'licentious rites of imitative magic', On: Osiris, the Ancient Egyptian God of the underworld?
How long before you think you'll take the oaths of the York Rite?
I ask this because I would like to hear of any subtle changes in your oaths from the outer portico to being accepted in the Rite.



posted on Nov, 4 2005 @ 09:45 PM
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Originally posted by Nemo me impune lacessit
Would I be correct in assuming Jah: Jahweh the God of the Hebrews, Bul: Baal, the ancient Canaanite fertility God associated with 'licentious rites of imitative magic', On: Osiris, the Ancient Egyptian God of the underworld?
How long before you think you'll take the oaths of the York Rite?
I ask this because I would like to hear of any subtle changes in your oaths from the outer portico to being accepted in the Rite.


From what I have read and studied, that is incorrect.

It will probably be another year or so before I petition the York Rite.

While the ceremonies and obligations (or a reasonable facsimile thereof) might be available to those resourceful and nosy enough to look for and find them, I am not, nor will I be, at liberty to discuss such things in public forum; or with anyone who is not a Mason, or, in the case of the info you are looking for, a Royal Arch Mason. Sorry dude. It's a matter of honor; you understand.

I am happy to discuss with anyone the exoteric aspects of Masonry, but I will never violate my obligation, under any circumstances.

[edit on 11/4/05 by The Axeman]



posted on Nov, 4 2005 @ 10:27 PM
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I am glad you read my thread 'Masonic Murder'. You know then that I am one of those 'nosy' enough to find out. I am afraid I have to disagree with you on the meaning and significance of JAH-BUL-ON.



posted on Nov, 5 2005 @ 12:40 AM
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Originally posted by Nemo me impune lacessit
I am glad you read my thread 'Masonic Murder'. You know then that I am one of those 'nosy' enough to find out. I am afraid I have to disagree with you on the meaning and significance of JAH-BUL-ON.


That's fine, but will you explain why you believe that, in your own words, using the references that lead you to that conclusion?

I know you quoted some stuff in the other thread but you brought it up here, so would you explain it for me as concisely as you can in your own words?



posted on Nov, 5 2005 @ 03:33 AM
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I'm afraid I am not a writer, just a humble reseacher. The sources I have quoted are far more able than I to get the message across.
The reason I speak of JAH-BUL-ON is not out of some bible thumping fundamentalist rage. I could care less if an individual worships God, Satan, Buddha, Zeus, etc... It is more out of a disgust at the fact that deceit is required to ensure an initiate enters the Lodge. You say that Freemasonry is a non-religious organization and that is a blatant lie. JAH-BUL-ON is a definite deity, one worshipped before an altar, within a temple. Yet you speak of honour? If you decieve your own, what acts do you perpetrate on the profane? What was Albert Pike's reaction upon learning the sacred name?

I OPPONO ASTIS

[edit on 5-11-2005 by Nemo me impune lacessit]




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