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Why do some people feel the need to post outright lies about Masons and Masonry?

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posted on May, 21 2005 @ 12:22 AM
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Being a member of this forum for almost a year now, I have seen many people come and go. I have seen all manner of credible information passed along, and I have also seen despicable and deliberate lies and falsehoods posted regarding the Masonic Fraternity.

My question is why?

Why do people, without a real clue as to what Masonry is about, post and promulgate such lies and falsehoods about these men?

Why is it that good honest men are called liars because one or two people suggest (without good reason) that they are, by way of posting false "oaths" and other such nonsense that is easily shown to be false? When the Masons challenge these lies and try to put forth the truth, they are labeled liars, and "because they are Masons, must be lying" about their fraternity.

WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY?!?!

Why are people who say "Masons are bad" put up on some kind of pedestal, while real, good, honest Masons who speak from years and years of collective experience are belittled and made out to be false and dishonest, when their true intentions are to make the good deeds and positive aims of their fraternity and themselves known to the general public? So many times I have seen people come onto this board and ask a question of the Masons here, to have it answered politely and accurately. Then, once the question is answered, someone will post something to the effect of "Oh, they are sworn to lie" and all of a sudden the detractor is the be-all-end-all of truth, while the Mason who is trying to give an honest answer is labeled a liar and a fraud. Those that are enemies of Freemasonry (by their own choice and for their own reasons) will proceed to say "Oh, well you are a Mason, how can we trust what you say?" Truth is an integral part of Masonry. They are taught to ALWAYS put forth the truth.

My question to you then, members of this forum, is this: Why are those who would detract from, or otherwise slander Masons given the benifit of the doubt, while Masons who speak from experience in the hopes of helping someone to understand are fed to the wolves and labeled liars?

Is it more likely that those who make outlandish claims against the Freemasons are correct, or that the Masons who are stuck woth defending a fraternity that means so much to them are telling the truth in the hopes that more people will understand what it is that Masons do and why it is so important to them?

It saddens me very much to see those who make claims with no way to back them up rallied around in the face of members of a fraternity that can provide good information, documentation, and reliable resources to back up what they say.

In short, those who are against Freemasonry rely on very inconsistent and unverifiable claims, while the Freemasons have many, many resources and hundreds of years of collective experience to draw upon to make posts and answer questions.

Why do people insist on taking the word of those who can't back up what they say over people who can? It mystifies me...

Anyone???




posted on May, 21 2005 @ 01:37 AM
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this place is insane, i know things about masonry that can describe to ''one'' as ''BAD'' but in another peers mind it can be ''good.'' so um, whats the point in arguing, we know this topic is way over the line?


dont you realize people just cant get the literacy right to the extent where knowledge is actually exchanged?

theres a movie coming out about all this, the davinci code..

pretty cool...ttyl



posted on May, 21 2005 @ 02:19 AM
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Because there are alot of very she;tered, ignorant people who believe anything some conmen say. Because they find it much easier in their limited, ignorant lives, to see the world as dominated by a secret group of Satanists who eat babies and listen to Neil Diamond.

When I see alot of the Anti-Masonic posts, they come from paranoid solitary fundementalist Christian types who do not live in the real world, and see anything that is not strictly adhereing to their bible and beliefs. Since many are of low intelligence, and their posts show that they are very uninformed and uneducated, it seems the road of ignorance, false information, and superstition is alot easier than the truth.

I myself used to be suspicous of Masons, though no where near paranoid like some people. My main reasons for suspicon were the number of Masons I knew of in high positions, plus the secrecy, and the fact it is an exclusively male order. But when I began to examine what the anti Masons had big problems with, I lost any respect in their "information", for the things they writing were signs of evil were actually things that were part of Wiccan, my spiritual choice, and of things estoric and arcane. I also knew that the founders of Wicca were ex-Masons, and I know from personal experience that the symbols, rites, and beliefs of my own spirituality were far from evil or dubious, only to Christian extremists that still believe the bible literally and would like to see all homosexuals, prostitutes, witches, drug users, and ahtiests burned at the stake.



posted on May, 21 2005 @ 02:27 AM
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Originally posted by topsecretombomb
theres a movie coming out about all this, the davinci code..


You know the Da Vinci code is fiction, right?



posted on May, 21 2005 @ 02:30 AM
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One might ask why the Masons seem to have such a need for secrecy and ritual in what they do. I mean from what I gather i is essentially a mens club. If you make something mysterious then people are bound to jump to all kinds of erroneous conclusions.

So can I turn this question around and ask why the Masons are so secretive and select?



posted on May, 21 2005 @ 02:31 AM
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Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
My main reasons for suspicon were the number of Masons I knew of in high positions...


This is encouraging, as it shows that high moral standards are respected by and reflected in our wider society. There are many places in the world where freemasons are discriminated against - at least some people can see through the stuff and nonsense.



posted on May, 21 2005 @ 03:09 AM
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Originally posted by ThehorrorofAtlantis
One might ask why the Masons seem to have such a need for secrecy and ritual in what they do. I mean from what I gather i is essentially a mens club. If you make something mysterious then people are bound to jump to all kinds of erroneous conclusions.

So can I turn this question around and ask why the Masons are so secretive and select?


Thats one I can answer. For the same reason many Wiccans, homosexuals, and others tend to be secretive.

Protection. When one reads all the diatribes, false info, ect, the fanatics write about Freemasons and others, its easier to understand why they tend to keep the nature of their lodges and rituals private.

When you look back in history, you see that many societies and govornments, such as the Communists, the Nazis, ect, all of which hated Freemasons and hunted them down and attempted to exterminate them. Many Christian zealots in times past also felt, since the Masons did not adhere to their strict dogma, would persecute them as well.

The same goes for people during the middle ages, who returned to the pagan faiths of their ancestors, were extremedly secretive and kept their beliefs, rituals, and membership secretive, as discovery by the Christ-Insane institutions of the times was a death sentance, usually a slow and horrid death.

Years and years of habits of secrecy still exibit themselves today. Though we no longer have state sanctioned inquisitions, we still have many religous zealots who still harrass and threaten people they do not agree with. When I lived in california's bible belt, a Wiccan woman and her husband opened up a metaphysical bookstore and pagan community center. They were greeted by the locals with death threats, primitive bombs in their trashcans, slashed tires and car vandalism, burning trasdh on their front yard, physical attacks and abuse. Their children, when it became known that their parents were witches, were brutally attacked and abused at school. One day, when a bunch of us were gathered in the back room, the store's temple, outside the local church's ladies group was outside noisily chanting and screaming we needed to be saved, that Satan was our god, ect.

So, with such attitudes being held by so many people, is it any wonder why many Wiccans choose to remain in the broom closet and are secretive about their faiths?

Freemasons also have rites and rituals that are misunderstood and labeled Satanic, and many things they do are feared by those ignorant of the symbolism. That is one reason they are secretive. Protection.

Another reason both Wiccans and Freemasons tend to be secretive is because their rituals, symbolism, and beliefs are considered most sacred and special, pearls of wisdom or knowldge that the general public really has no business knowing about. Sort of along the lines of pearls being thrown before swine. The majority of people on this planet are pretty much that: swine, base herd animals who live a narrow existance, carrying little beyond whats on their plate, whats on TV, when is the next sale at Wal Mart, or which friend is pregnant with who's kid. Thus, precious beliefs, symbols, and rites are not shared with those who have no real desire to move beyond a simple, base existance.

As to why Freemasons are very selective, as are Wiccans, see above. Unlike Christians or Muslims, niether Wiccans nor Masons are interesting in saving souls, or gathering large herds of sheeple and indoctrinating them. Niether system believes they are the one true way, and thus, both Masons and Wiccans are more interested in quality, not quantity. They are both spiritual systems that one is drawn to, that one desires. You have to be truly interested in them, to improve one's self and the world around them. They are not mass produced quick fix one size fit all systems. Only certain types of people were meant for them.

Though I was once leary of Masonry's all male club system, it was for different reasons than you think. I have no problem with all male societies, I think that in truly deep, powerful brotherhoods of men, you have wonderful transformations taking place. My suspicon was not that Masons were diabolical devil worshipers, but some sort of exclusive "old boys" net work of corrupt executives, politicans, ect. When I learned that Masonry was a very deep, beautiful society dedicated to making a person better, in mind, body, spirit, and community, I realized it was not different in principle from say, a coven.



posted on May, 21 2005 @ 03:47 AM
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Originally posted by ThehorrorofAtlantis
So can I turn this question around and ask why the Masons are so secretive and select?


We Freemasons are not as secretive and select as certain people would like you to believe. Our requirements for joining are simply to be a male, believe in a God, ANY GOD, and have a good reputation. Otherwise, you can be anything or ANYONE you want and still become a mason.

As far as the secrecy is concerned, there was a time when masons needed to be secretive for fear of persecution. Now, the only things we take an oath to protect are our modes of recognition (handshakes, passwords, signs). Some jursdictions also keep their rituals private, but since all this can be found on the web, are there really any TRUE masonic secrets? There are.

The true masonic secrets cannot be communicated. They are the changes that occur inside of a man when he takes the degrees of masonry. It is a special knowledge and special experience which unites us all into one sacred band and society. That is the true secret of Freemasonry: making good men better.

Of course people would rather you believe the lies. It makes you suspicious of us, and makes you HATE us. Do some research, you will see there is no masonic knowledge that cannot be easily found in the teachings of any respectable religion.


The only reason we masons still have some of these secrets, despite them being readily available in thousands of books and websites, is because of our love for tradition, and because of the special place that these rituals and symbols have in our hearts. No mason wants our esoteric secrets to be available for any Joe Schmoe to denigrate and ridicule, and to use for his own entertainment. They mean WAY too much to us for that.


[edit on 21-5-2005 by sebatwerk]



posted on May, 21 2005 @ 08:46 AM
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Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
Because there are alot of very she;tered, ignorant people who believe anything some conmen say. Because they find it much easier in their limited, ignorant lives, to see the world as dominated by a secret group of Satanists who eat babies and listen to Neil Diamond.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's my understanding that masons don't really know what their rituals mean or where they originated?

The conspiracy theory is that there are people at the top who know the true purpose of the masons. They use the influence of masons in positions of power to further their own agenda. The problem with arguing against this point is that a conspiracy theorist would say that you are not high enough up in the organisation to know there is something else going on so it's impossible to disprove.



posted on May, 21 2005 @ 12:29 PM
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Originally posted by johnnyutah


Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's my understanding that masons don't really know what their rituals mean or where they originated?


It depends on the individual Mason. Obviously, if a new member comes in just because he wants to join a club and has no interest in anything but the banquets and fellowship, he will not take the time to study the meaning or history of the ritual. Other Masons, however, who do take an interest, will find a wealth of information on the subject.


The conspiracy theory is that there are people at the top who know the true purpose of the masons. They use the influence of masons in positions of power to further their own agenda. The problem with arguing against this point is that a conspiracy theorist would say that you are not high enough up in the organisation to know there is something else going on so it's impossible to disprove.


I will somewhat agree, but only partially. I would say it is impossible to disprove to a non-Mason, especially a conspiracy theorist, but fairly simple to disprove himself.

Non-Masons have no personal experience with Masonry, and it is the tendency of the conspiracy theorist to let is imagination get the best of him. But the Mason who participates in the fraternity learns very quickly that the conspiracy theorist's ideas cannot be correct.

First of all, he learns that there is really no such thing as "Masons at the top who know" and "Masons at the bottom who don't". The Fraternity is governed by a Grand Lodge, and the Grand Lodge Officers are elected by ballot of the general membership. They serve their terms, then become regular members again after their terms are expired, having been replaced by other members who have been democratically elected. Any member may be a candidate for office.

Therefore, those at "the top" are only there temporarily, and are only there with the consent of the general membership. Furthermore, even the Grand Master can't do anything that violates either the Code or Constitution of the Grand Lodge. All members of the fraternity have the right to a voice in Grand Lodge proceedings, and all Lodges have the right of representation in Grand Lodge. Furthermore, minutes to all grand Lodge proceedings are published and circulated for those who could not attend for whatever reason.



posted on May, 21 2005 @ 12:33 PM
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Originally posted by The Axeman
WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY?!?!

Why do people come to a forum named, ABOVE TOP SECRET?

To check the local weather?

OR the latest Football results?

I dont Think So!



[edit on 21/5/05 by Souljah]



posted on May, 21 2005 @ 01:28 PM
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Originally posted by Souljah

Originally posted by The Axeman
WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY?!?!

Why do people come to a forum named, ABOVE TOP SECRET?

To check the local weather?

OR the latest Football results?

I dont Think So!



Uuuhhhh...? I thought it was to "deny ignorance", and to get to the bottom, to find out the truth, of things?



posted on May, 21 2005 @ 02:15 PM
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Originally posted by sebatwerk

Originally posted by Souljah

Originally posted by The Axeman
WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY?!?!

Why do people come to a forum named, ABOVE TOP SECRET?

To check the local weather?

OR the latest Football results?

I dont Think So!



Uuuhhhh...? I thought it was to "deny ignorance", and to get to the bottom, to find out the truth, of things?


Then, stop calling everyone LIERS! Stop and listen to what they have to say. If you dont agree with what is said, fine, but dont try to defend 2 or 3 million people you dont know personally.



posted on May, 21 2005 @ 02:33 PM
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yeah i hear that the davinci code is fake, but what if there is a possibility of being actual elements which represent some sort of truth?


im not saying i know everything about the topic, but sometimes in movies people are trying to hint the world of other ''things''

i have another question too, dont masons study the qabbala? if so why is it also studied in the necronomicron bible? (satanic bible) is there some kind of interest in satanic knowledge of the cosmos from the masons? help.



posted on May, 21 2005 @ 02:36 PM
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Someone is lying, but I'm not sure who it is...is it the Masons or their detractors?



posted on May, 21 2005 @ 02:40 PM
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ASE

One of the aspects of this discussion which can get people confused is the difference between freemasonry and freemasons. The former is a system, the latter is the people who practice it.

It is the system which is defended, it is well defined and in many instances the responses are based on fact. I don't think you'll find many instances of masons defending individuals because for the most part we don't know much about them. All we do know is that they have elected to subscribe to a system of morality, and that should tell us something about them.

There's bound to be some bad sorts who have joined freemasonry for the wrong reasons. The organisation as a whole shouldn't be pilloried for their misdeeds.



posted on May, 21 2005 @ 03:08 PM
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Originally posted by All Seeing Eye

Originally posted by sebatwerk
Uuuhhhh...? I thought it was to "deny ignorance", and to get to the bottom, to find out the truth, of things?


Then, stop calling everyone LIERS! Stop and listen to what they have to say. If you dont agree with what is said, fine, but dont try to defend 2 or 3 million people you dont know personally.


If I know what they say to be false, I will absolutely say so.



posted on May, 21 2005 @ 03:10 PM
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Originally posted by Trinityman
There's bound to be some bad sorts who have joined freemasonry for the wrong reasons. The organisation as a whole shouldn't be pilloried for their misdeeds.



Would you say the same thing if that statement was about a political party?

Sure, theres some bad democrats/republicans. You can't judge the whole party by them . . .


Actually, yes we can.

I have no opinion on freemasons. I have lurked the secret socities forum from time to time.

One thing I constantly see is someone making accusations against freemasons, only to be counter-attacked by multiple pro mason posts.

I have even seen the pro-masons quote each others posts to reiterate the same points in the same thread.

If I was inclined to think masons were part of a conspiracy, that's exactly what I would expect.


You ever notice how NASA ignores the moon hoaxers?



posted on May, 21 2005 @ 03:47 PM
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Originally posted by Trinityman
ASE

One of the aspects of this discussion which can get people confused is the difference between freemasonry and freemasons. The former is a system, the latter is the people who practice it.

It is the system which is defended, it is well defined and in many instances the responses are based on fact. I don't think you'll find many instances of masons defending individuals because for the most part we don't know much about them. All we do know is that they have elected to subscribe to a system of morality, and that should tell us something about them.

There's bound to be some bad sorts who have joined freemasonry for the wrong reasons. The organisation as a whole shouldn't be pilloried for their misdeeds.


Do you have to join a secret society to find morality? Do you have to take a oath to the death (whether real or symbolic) to prove your morality? BAHHHHHHHH!!!

I meet good honest, MORAL people every day, and they dont belong to any secret society that looks down upon the common person. They dont feel that they are above the rest because they are moral.

The "Bad Sorts" seek out harbors in the night, and freemasonry provides it. Like moths to a flame, the evil "bad sorts" are drawn to the cover of secrecy because they know they will find others of thier kind.

"pilloried" is not the word I would use!!!



posted on May, 21 2005 @ 03:52 PM
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Originally posted by LeftBehind
Would you say the same thing if that statement was about a political party?

Sure, theres some bad democrats/republicans. You can't judge the whole party by them . . .

Actually, yes we can.


Agreed. Political parties have an agenda and seek to influence the world externally through various activities. A bad Senator does reflect badly on the Party as not only do they endorse the party, but the party endorses them. You might not say that a bad party worker at grass roots level reflects as much back on the Party.

Freemasonry has no external agenda - it seeks to work on its members internally. Whilst its membership endorses freemasonry the reverse is not true.


One thing I constantly see is someone making accusations against freemasons, only to be counter-attacked by multiple pro mason posts.


I don't agree with your assertion that multiple masons counter-attack. One or two have gone on the attack, and there have been multiple defenses, but I don't think thats the same thing.


I have even seen the pro-masons quote each others posts to reiterate the same points in the same thread. If I was inclined to think masons were part of a conspiracy, that's exactly what I would expect.


Suspiciously consistent posting? You would see exactly the same effect if there was no conspiracy and we were all posting the truth. I certainly link to and cut from masonic websites, because thats where you'll get the best information about freemasonry.

I think the masons have every right to defend their fraternity against the misinformation, rumours and half-truths that are out there. Particularly if the historical approach of 'ignore them and they'll go away' is what got us into this situation in the first place.






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