Michael Flynn sentencing delayed as judge tells ex-Trump official: 'You sold your country out'

originally posted by: Sillyolme
a reply to: proteus33

Well no he wasnt tricked. You do not lie to someone by accident. You open your mouth and the lie comes out. It is a willfil action that requires thought.

Mis remeber something. thats a lie when talking to the FBI or police. Say you was eating bacon for breakfast. then later on add toast to it. there is a lie according to you..

a reply to: PatriotGames2

Would you care to cite a source of proof Flynn was tied to kidnapping? Or is it something composed like the Trump Dossier? Or like the judge using the incorrect left’s timeline to call Flynn a traitor?

a reply to: PatriotGames2

Or charges by the same people that whitewashed Hilary mishandling classified material? Actions that have clearly defined punishments and fines with nothing about intent.

a reply to: yuppa

Except he did remember, and it wasn't really a minor detail.

"Flynn responded, 'Not really. I don't remember.' It wasn't, 'Don't do anything,'" the 302 memo said.

But the FBI knew otherwise, and in the charging document against Flynn, Flynn admitted he asked Kislyak to “refrain from escalating the situation.”

Flynn also admitted to discussing his calls with Kislyak with other unnamed members of the Trump transition team.

In response, Mueller’s team said Friday in a memo that Flynn was given multiple chances by the agents who questioned him to correct the false statements he made.

www.washingtonexaminer.com...

originally posted by: Sillyolme
a reply to: shooterbrody

If you had any idea what I looked like you would never make any old age jokes. I laugh every time I read one.
I showed my husband one and he was like come here you sexy grandma you.... then he wanted to punch you.

glad I can spread holiday cheer
not surprised your response to such would be violence

originally posted by: yuppa

originally posted by: Sillyolme
a reply to: proteus33

Well no he wasnt tricked. You do not lie to someone by accident. You open your mouth and the lie comes out. It is a willfil action that requires thought.

Mis remeber something. thats a lie when talking to the FBI or police. Say you was eating bacon for breakfast. then later on add toast to it. there is a lie according to you..

False.
General Flynn lied to the FBI. Repeatedly and about the core of what he was being questioned about.

He gave materially false information.

Title 18 of the United States Code.

That statute — section 1001 — makes it unlawful for an individual:

"(a) … in any matter within the jurisdiction of the executive, legislative, or judicial branch of the Government of the United States, [to] knowingly and willfully … (2) make any materially false, fictitious, or fraudulent statement or representation…."

In order for it to be a Crime to lie to the FBI, Congress et al. the lie must be "Material" to the inquiry.

or as the Justice Manual states:
“To establish materiality as an element, it is sufficient that the statement have the capacity or a natural tendency to influence the determination required to be made.”
“the test for materiality under [section] 1001 is not whether the false statement actually influenced a government function, but whether it had the capacity to influence.”

www.justice.gov...

General Flynn lied about multiple conversations he had with Kislyak negotiating and US Russian Sanctions.
General Flynn lied about multiple conversations he had with Russian and Egyptian officials regarding a UN Resolution vote on Israeli Settlements.
General Flynn lied about knowing nothing about the "Turkey Project" and claimed the Op-Ed he wrote for the Hill encouraging the arrest and extradition of a political dissident in the US, Fethullah Gülen, was at his own initiative, when in reality he had accepted 500k from Turkey and was covertly working for the Turkish government.

General Flynn and his attorneys have been given multiple opportunities to contest these charges and even revoke his guilty plea and yet he has repeatedly admitted he intentionally lied on these matters.

Furthermore, from his statement of offense:

On or about December 29, 2016, FLYNN called a senior official of the
Presidential Transition Team ("PTT official"), who was with other senior
·members of the Presidential Transition Team at the Mar-a-Lago resort in
Palm Beach, Florida, to discuss what, if anything, to communicate to the
Russian Ambassador about the U.S. Sanctions. On that call, FLYNN and
the PTT official discussed the U.S. Sanctions, including the potential
impact of those sanctions on the incoming administration's foreign policy
goals. The PIT official and FLYNN also discussed that the members of
the Presidential Transition Team at Mar-a-Lago did not want Russia to
escalate the situation.

-

Shortly after his phone call with the Russian Ambassador, FLYNN spoke
with the PTT official to report on the substance of his call with the
Russian Ambassador, including their discussion of the U.S. Sanctions.

-

After his phone call with the Russian Ambassador, FLYNN spoke with
senior members of the Presidential Transition Team about FL YNN's
conversations with the Russian Ambassador regarding the U.S. Sanctions

-

On or about December 22, 2016, a very senior member of the Presidential
Transition Team directed FLYNN to contact officials from foreign
governments, including Russia, to learn where each government stood on
the resolution and to influence those governments to delay the vote or
defeat the resolution.

www.justice.gov...

Multiple members of the transition team.
A "very senior member of the Presidential Transition Team".

They all knew he was lying.
He was operating under the direction of a "very senior member of the Transition Team Team".

They participated in the lie to the press, they said nothing to the Vice President and let Flynn lie to him, they knew he lied to the FBI and said nothing.

That is striking to me.

This administration is rife with criminals, corruption and dishonesty.

The fish rots from the head.

That is striking to me.

what is striking to me is that the obama administration illegally used the intelligence community against members of the incoming administration of its political rivals
what is also striking is that in the rush to get rid of trump no one seems to care

bet you care if trump chooses to do the same to his political rivals

originally posted by: F4guy

I does not say "whoever lies after being told that it is an official inquiry and after being advised that lying is a crime...."
If you lie to a government official in a matter within their jurisdiction, it's a crime. Period.

So, what you're claiming is that being mirandized only matters in non-federal jurisdictions?

No.

If it is an official investigation, which it was, and the person is a suspect of a crime, which he was, he should have been properly 'read his rights' prior to interviewing/questioning or else any statements made that are evidence of lying is generally inadmissible in a criminal trial.

This is an understood truth, and doesn't need to be a part of the elements of criminal statutes.

And just between you and me, I work in a criminal investigation of an alphabet agency, directly with investigative agents and US prosecutors daily. I'll trust my understanding of judicial procedure, thank you.

You might be interested in this thread that does a good job breaking down the things done wrong in this investigation--pay close attention to the part titled "Miranda Warnings."

a reply to: shooterbrody


did Obama force Flynn to lie? wow..

originally posted by: knoxie
a reply to: shooterbrody


did Obama force Flynn to lie? wow..

well according to you guys he did walk on water so it is not out of the possible now is it?

originally posted by: neutronflux
a reply to: PatriotGames2

Would you care to cite a source of proof Flynn was tied to kidnapping?

Ex-CIA Director Spoke to Mueller About Flynn's Alleged Turkish Scheme
www.nbcnews.com...

Mueller Probes Flynn’s Role in Alleged Plan to Deliver Cleric to Turkey
www.wsj.com...

MUELLER INVESTIGATING MICHAEL FLYNN FOR PLOT TO KIDNAP TURKISH OPPOSITION LEADER FETHULLAH GÜLEN
www.newsweek.com...

Ex-Trump aide Flynn investigated over plot to kidnap Turkish dissident
www.theguardian.com...

Mike Flynn and the Insane Alleged Plot to Kidnap a Turkish Cleric
www.vice.com...

Woolsey: Flynn discussed sending Erdogan foe back to Turkey
www.cnn.com...

originally posted by: shooterbrody

That is striking to me.

what is striking to me is that the obama administration illegally used the intelligence community against members of the incoming administration of its political rivals

The FBI launched a very, very, much warranted counter-intelligence investigation involving dozens of covert contacts by Trump Campaign Members and Russian Agents at a time when then Russian government was running an expansive covert operation to effect the 2016 US Presidential election. The FBI would have been grossly negligent if they did not investigate.

A "rival" would be a competitor. President Obama was not running for re-election.

Suggesting it was a political decision by the CIA/FBI is inane.

what is also striking is that in the rush to get rid of trump no one seems to care

I'd rather he stuck around to face the public and answer questions in a 2020 election.
But if he is guilty of something that the GOP find sufficient to remove him from office for, then let the constitution do it's thing.

bet you care if trump chooses to do the same to his political rivals

Investigate crimes, prosecute criminals, identify unregistered foreign agents working in the highest offices of government?
Sure.

Not for nothing, but I am pretty sure President Trump and allies in congress have done their absolute best to investigate and prosecute people for political purposes, encouraged by the "Lock her up" base. So far after years they have come up empty handed.

Could the difference be that one is just BS and the other is legitimate investigations of very real criminal activity?

a reply to: Extorris

The FBI launched a very, very, much warranted counter-intelligence investigation involving dozens of covert contacts by Trump Campaign Members and Russian Agents at a time when then Russian government was running an expansive covert operation to effect the 2016 US Presidential election. The FBI would have been grossly negligent if they did not investigate.

I do not disagree with this.
Simply provided the paperwork to make it legal and there is no issue.
Oh thats right, the standard for SPYING ON AND AMERICAN CITIZEN IN THE USA is very high. Perhaps the leos involved should have followed the actual law.
Incoming members of the administration are actually allowed to speak to foreign contacts, it is not illegal despite what the msm would have you believe.
Investigate away, just follow the actual law when you do it.
Flynns portion of the conversation with the russian ambassador WAS IN NO WAY ILLEGAL and was not subject for dissemination to anyone. You do understand this?
Perhaps that is why the leos attempt to get an actual FISA warrant was DENIED twice?
All the laws matter even the ones the obama administration broke to spy on those who beat his successor.

originally posted by: shooterbrody
a reply to: Extorris

The FBI launched a very, very, much warranted counter-intelligence investigation involving dozens of covert contacts by Trump Campaign Members and Russian Agents at a time when then Russian government was running an expansive covert operation to effect the 2016 US Presidential election. The FBI would have been grossly negligent if they did not investigate.

I do not disagree with this.
Simply provided the paperwork to make it legal and there is no issue.
Oh thats right, the standard for SPYING ON AND AMERICAN CITIZEN IN THE USA is very high. Perhaps the leos involved should have followed the actual law.

There is no proof they didn't, despite exhaustive investigations and hearings by the GOP, no one has proven that the FBI did anything other than follow the law. If any investigators broke the law, no doubt the Trump administration would have prosecuted those responsible. It is really pretty pathetic, despite President Trump being the Chief Law Enforcement Officer for the nation, the best he has managed in trying to politicize justice is a couple IG reports saying almost mean things while concluding nothing illegal happened.

Incoming members of the administration are actually allowed to speak to foreign contacts, it is not illegal despite what the msm would have you believe.

Are they allowed to do that while covertly working as unregistered agents of a foreign government and substantially and materially lying to the FBI and other government officials about those conversations?

Investigate away, just follow the actual law when you do it.

Check and done.

Flynns portion of the conversation with the russian ambassador WAS IN NO WAY ILLEGAL and was not subject for dissemination to anyone. You do understand this?

So why again did he thoroughly lie about it to investigators?
Also why did he lie on government forms and interviews about working for Turkey at the time?

Perhaps that is why the leos attempt to get an actual FISA warrant was DENIED twice?

A second hand report stating that two FISA warrants were denied for a foreign bank?
Credibility of the report uncertain and relevance non-existent. Strange you keep citing this.

a reply to: Extorris

There is no proof they didn't, despite exhaustive investigations and hearings by the GOP, no one has proven that the FBI did anything other than follow the law.

How did they have the contents of the conversation with the ambassador?
The ic is permitted to listen in and record the conversation, that is not the issue; it becomes an issue when no crime occurred during said conversation and the AMERICAN CITIZEN involved in the conversation is unmasked and the fbi asks said AMERICAN CITIZEN about the contents of said conversation. The 302's recently released show exactly this.

Are they allowed to do that while covertly working as unregistered agents of a foreign government and substantially and materially lying to the FBI and other government officials about those conversations?

As no crime was committed in conversing with the russian ambassador yes flynn absolutely was allowd to speak to the russian ambassador.
Flynns fara status had nothing to do with the russian ambassador or with the "rushia investigation" in general.
Two separate issues conflated by the msm.
Prosecute away for the fara violation, just make sure you are applying that particular law equally.

So why again did he thoroughly lie about it to investigators? Also why did he lie on government forms and interviews about working for Turkey at the time?

"thoroughly" is debatable
he acknowledged the call
missremembering is not a crime
the issue with turkey is separate, no matter how you try to mix the two
you understand the "foreign agent" in a fara violation does not mean spy, right?

a reply to: Extorris

I'd rather he stuck around to face the public and answer questions in a 2020 election.

I agree 100%.

i think he'd love to bail but can't because of his good friend vlad. lol

this coming campaign is going to be very interesting.

originally posted by: shooterbrody


Flynns fara status had nothing to do with the russian ambassador or with the "rushia investigation" in general.
Two separate issues conflated by the msm.

That was the other charge for lying Flynn Pleaded guilty to in court.
You are aware that was one of the two instances of false statements he plead guilty to?

On March 7, 2017, FLYNN filed multiple documents with the Department of
Justice pursuant to the Foreign Agents Registration Act ("FARA") pertaining to a project
performed by him and his company, the Flynn Intel Group, Inc. ("FIG"), for the principal benefit
of the Republic of Turkey ("Turkey project"). In the FARA filings, FLYNN made materially
false statements and omissions, including by falsely stating that (a) FIG did not know whether or
the extent to which the Republic of Turkey was involved in the Turkey project, (b) the Turkey
project was focused on improving U.S. business organizations' confidence regarding doing
business in Turkey, and (c) an op-ed by FLYNN published in The Hill on November 8, 2016,
was written at his own initiative; and by omitting that officials from the Republic of Turkey
provided supervision and direction over the Turkey project.

www.justice.gov...

originally posted by: shooterbrody

As no crime was committed in conversing with the russian ambassador yes flynn absolutely was allowd to speak to the russian ambassador.

And?

He was not charged with speaking to the Russian Ambassador? Have you been following this closely?

He was charged and pleaded guilty to
1) Materially lying to the FBI regarding conversations he had with Russian Ambassador Kislyak
2) Materially lying in security forms and interviews in regards to his covert employment by the Turkish Government.

He was NOT charged for speaking with the Russian Ambassador. He was NOT charged with being an Unregistered Agent of a Foriegn Government. He was NOT charged for a lot of things.

Why are you complaining about the legality of his conversation with Kislyak, when he was not charged for speaking with Kislyak?

a reply to: yuppa

He lied. He didnt misremember. He lied.... He admitted it in a court of law.
He was given the opportunity to change his plea deal and face a trial but he chose not to..... because .... he lied...

a reply to: neutronflux

Is this like asking what evidence Mueller has where the fact that we do not have the information automatically means it doesnt exist?