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originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: EasternShadow
It is the same person, her seed is Jesus Christ.
If you trust any other you will never make it into the third Heaven.
originally posted by: EhYehEsherEhYeh
a reply to: JoshuaCox
God is Good.
originally posted by: ChesterJohn
The Preserved word of God is verifiable to be the words of God. All others versions are deceptions of being Gods word but in reality are the creation of men to form to their theology and their unfaithfulness and creating god in their likeness.
originally posted by: ChesterJohn
and you are correct the 10 commandments and your belief in God are not sufficient enough to get you into God's Heaven. There is no eternal sleep either. Only the bodies of saved men are referred to as sleeping in the Preserved word of God.
originally posted by: EasternShadow
Believe what you will. You choose to have faith in the words of man. I choose to remain skeptic unless truth is absolute.
You know nothing about salvation because you believe in 2000 years lies of heretic gentiles Churches . Neither do I claim myself know. For only Jesus can verify the truth. ... But I'm telling you the truth, just as your are telling the same to me.
originally posted by: whereislogic
Just to remind you, all the arguments you use against the bible's credibility have been used before by men (bible critics). Or to use your terminology, "the words of man". Including your promotion of the philosophy of vagueness, first mentioned and demonstrated in the bible by Pontius Pilate in his insincere question to Jesus:
What is truth?
As if you can't figure it out for certain anyway (that's why I call it the philosophy of vagueness, it obscures what is true and what is false, makes it more gray figuratively, and foggy, unclear; which helps a lot if one wants to obscure things and keep people in ignorance about what is both true and false*, as well as giving things your own spin, see video at the end of this comment). That was the point he was making but not spelling out and the reason Jesus didn't answer him. Don't expect any answer to any of your questions if you're not looking for definitive answers cause you don't believe they even exist or can de discovered or figured out (definitively, conclusively, with 100% certainty).
originally posted by: whereislogic
Can you be more clear about whether or not you are capable of dispensing the truth about God or salvation by God or not? How could you be telling the truth if you just said that only Jesus can do that (or is the keyword "verify the truth")? Or if you claim you don't know it (for certain) regarding a particular subject? Did you mean to say:
"I'm telling you what I believe to be true, just as you're doing."
Notice what Jesus said about the subject of 'knowing the truth' (referring to the truths/facts/realities/certainties about God) to his disciples at John 8:31,32:
Then Jesus went on to say to the Jews who had believed him: “If you remain in my word, you are really my disciples, 32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”
If you don't really know this particular truth that Jesus was referring to, you can't really be his disciple and you haven't been set free (from the lies and deception that Satan promotes about these subjects, including all counterfeit forms of Christianity or following Christ, counterfeit forms of 'remaining in his word'). You would more likely fall under the type of people described by Jesus here in Matthew 7:
originally posted by: EasternShadow
Who wrote the Gospels?
Who teach Trinity?
Yes this particular truth is, Jesus's words was preached by man who kept whores in their houses, massacred their fellow priests to be a pointiff, involved in centuries shameful scandals, justify the killing of millions etc..And recently abusing children sexually. They even teach people how evil God is. So who else is Jesus referring "to workers of lawlessness"?
Your own teachers acted morally ambigious, switched alliances when it suited them during the time of turbulance and committed so much crime against humanity in the past and present.
Everything you quote me, reflect back at what happen in the past to your teachers whose left hand hugged a whore while right hand holding a Bible.
And you wish me to follow their "Words of God."
To Hell with them.
originally posted by: whereislogic
a reply to: EasternShadow
edit previous comment where I said: "How could you be telling the truth if you just said that only Jesus can do that (or is the keyword "verify the truth")? Or if you claim you don't know it (for certain) regarding a particular subject?"
I meant how can I be sure or how can I know* if you're telling the truth if....etc.
*: Or how am I to figure out how much value to attribute to your words? (in terms of truthfulness, accuracy, correctness) If you say you don't know it, what use are your words to me or anyone else here if you present it as "truth"? (the parts you present as supposedly being truthful/factual/correct, without error, whether or not you spell it out as such or only describe it as "I'm telling you the truth" while at the same time arguing or implying in your words that you believe that truth is not absolute, a contradiction in terms).
originally posted by: whereislogic
There's extensive research material on this subject with accompanying evidence that the books that are referred to as "the Gospels" in some circles were written by the men whose names these Gospels bear and that they were written under divine inspiration by God's holy spirit (I guess you can seperate those claims into 2 subjects). But this material does not 'tickle your ears' so you haven't looked into it so far, only the arguments of those who argue against it. With this behaviour you are demonstrating 2 Timothy 4:3,4 (and the reliability and credibility of the bible as well as demonstrating the same behavioural pattern as the one you were arguing with):
For there will be a period of time when they will not put up with the wholesome* teaching, but according to their own desires, they will surround themselves with teachers to have their ears tickled.* 4 They will turn away from listening to the truth and give attention to false stories.
1st *: Or “healthful; beneficial.”
2nd *: Or “to tell them what they want to hear.”
originally posted by: whereislogic
Trinitarians and Pagans (Babylonians, Egyptians, Greek philosophers and the Brahmin from the area that is nowadays called India and Iran, those giving rise to Buddhism and Hinduism and what is called "eastern philosophy"), it's not taught in the bible. Not by Paul, not by John, not by Jesus, nowhere. It's a doctrine that is taught by Babylon the Great in various forms and variations. Even fans of withcraft and wicca are familiar with it (take for example the symbol of the triquetra, you can google that one if you're unfamiliar with it). Again, it provides evidence of the reliability of the bible when it comes to the scriptures about Babylon the Great, false prophets, hypocrisy and various other accompanying behaviour and where these philosophies originated and how they spread (also an interesting piece of evidence in relation to this subject is by what tools or mechanisms they spread within Christendom, torture and death penalties, burning at the stake, political pressure, etc.)
originally posted by: whereislogic
The bible indeed gives ample warning and descriptions of these religious leaders and teachers. Adding again to the pile of evidence available for its reliability in describing and predicting human behaviour in relation to the truths about God. Leaving a trail of breadcrumbs (historical documentation and archeological finds) that traces back to Babylon and thus making the fitting description of Babylon the Great that is well discussed in the book of Revelation very appropiate (more evidence again of what's really going on, what the real Matrix is that people who like to use the term Matrix as a controlling system aren't noticing or mentioning in detail in the way the bible does).
originally posted by: whereislogic
They are not my teachers. Most of my commentary on ATS is focussed on exposing their falsehoods (incorrect teachings) and showing what the bible really teaches that contradicts what they taught (and others nowadays are still teaching or adhering to, expressing their belief therein). Christendom is not Christianity. That's becoming a bit of a catchphrase for me lately.
originally posted by: whereislogic
Anyway:
What the h*ll is HELL anyway? Are you going there?
originally posted by: whereislogic
a reply to: EasternShadow
This video sums up some of the descriptions in the bible regarding these subjects and the people you have been describing within Christendom (and again I'm providing this information as evidence for the reliability of the bible in correctly warning for these people and how to tell right from wrong, true from false, how to guard against deception by Babylon the Great and in particular the part that is called Christendom):
SCENE 1: Jesus dialogues with his disciples: The prayer of thanksgiving or the eucharist
One day he was with his disciples in Judea, and he found them gathered together and seated in pious observance. When he [approached] his disciples, [34] gathered together and seated and offering a prayer of thanksgiving over the bread, [he] laughed.
The disciples said to [him], "Master, why are you laughing at [our] prayer of thanksgiving? We have done what is right."
He answered and said to them, "I am not laughing at you. are not doing this because of your own will but because it is through this that your god [will be] praised."
They said, "Master, you are […] the son of our god."
Jesus said to them, "How do you know me? Truly [I] say to you, no generation of the people that are among you will know me."
When his disciples heard this, they started getting angry and infuriated and began blaspheming against him in their hearts.
When Jesus observed their lack of [understanding, he said] to them, "Why has this agitation led you to anger? Your god who is within you and […] [35] have provoked you to anger [within] your souls. [Let] any one of you who is [strong enough] among human beings bring out the perfect human and stand before my face."
They all said, "We have the strength."
But their spirits did not dare to stand before [him], except for Judas Iscariot. He was able to stand before him, but he could not look him in the eyes, and he turned his face away.
Judas [said] to him, "I know who you are and where you have come from. You are from the immortal realm of Barbelo. And I am not worthy to utter the name of the one who has sent you."
Knowing that Judas was reflecting upon something that was exalted, Jesus said to him, "Step away from the others and I shall tell you the mysteries of the kingdom. It is possible for you to reach it, but you will grieve a great deal. [36] For someone else will replace you, in order that the twelve [disciples] may again come to completion with their god."
Judas said to him, "When will you tell me these things, and [when] will the great day of light dawn for the generation?"
But when he said this, Jesus left him.
THE DISCIPLES SEE THE TEMPLE AND DISCUSS IT
They [said, "We have seen] a great [house with a large] altar [in it, and] twelve men — they are the priests, we would say — and a name;
and a crowd of people is waiting at that altar, [until] the priests [. . . and receive] the offerings. [But] we kept waiting."
[Jesus said], "What are [the priests] like?"
They [said, "Some ...] two weeks; [some] sacrifice their own children, others their wives, in praise [and] humility with each other; some sleep with men; some are involved in [slaughter]; some commit a multitude of sins and deeds of lawlessness. And the men who stand [before] the altar invoke your [name], [39] and in all the deeds of their deficiency, the sacrifices are brought to completion [. . .]."
After they said this, they were quiet, for they were troubled.
JESUS OFFERS AN ALLEGORICAL INTERPRETATION OF THE VISION OF THE TEMPLE
Jesus said to them,
"Why are you troubled? Truly I say to you, all the priests who stand before that altar invoke my name. Again I say to you, my name has been written on this [. . .] of the generations of the stars through the human generations. [And they] have planted trees without fruit, in my name, in a shameful manner."
Jesus said to them,"Those you have seen receiving the offerings at the altar-^hat is who you are. That is the god you serve, and you are those twelve men you have seen. The cattle you have seen brought for sacrifice are the many people you lead astray [40] before that altar. [. . .] will stand and make use of my name in this way, and generations of the pious will remain loyal to him. After him another man will stand there from [the fornicators], and another [will] stand there from the slayers of children, and another from those who sleep with men, and those who abstain, and the rest of the people of pollution and lawlessness and error, and those who say, 'We are like angels'; they are the stars that bring everything to its conclusion. For to the human generations it has been said,
'Look, God has received your sacrifice from the hands of a priest'— that is, a minister of error. But it is the Lord, the Lord of the universe, who commands, 'On the last day they will be put to shame.'"
Gospel is the standard term for the first four books of the [so-called] New Testament [I call this part of the bible "the Christian Greek Scriptures" because "New Testament" is a misleading inaccurate term], describing the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth, although it has [been used with] a wider meaning...
IN April 2006, newspapers worldwide carried the startling story that a team of scholars was releasing to the public the contents of a newly discovered ancient text entitled “Gospel of Judas.” These articles referred to scholarly claims that this text revolutionizes understanding of the figure of Judas, the disciple who betrayed Jesus. According to such claims, Judas was actually a hero, the apostle who best understood Jesus, delivering him for execution at Jesus’ request.
Is this text authentic? And if so, does it reveal some previously hidden knowledge regarding the historical figures Judas Iscariot, Jesus Christ, or early Christians? Should it affect our understanding of Christianity?
THE DISCOVERY OF THE “GOSPEL OF JUDAS”
How the “Gospel of Judas” was discovered remains somewhat uncertain. Rather than being discovered and documented by archaeologists, the document abruptly appeared on the antiquities market in the late 1970’s or early 1980’s. It was likely discovered in Egypt in 1978 in an abandoned tomb, possibly within a cave.
...
A few scholars were briefly shown the codex in 1983; but the asking price was exorbitant, and no sale was made. Further years of neglect and improper storage led to accelerated deterioration of the codex.
...
THE “GOSPEL OF JUDAS”—A GNOSTIC GOSPEL
The first mention of the existence of a work called the “Gospel of Judas” is found in the writings of Irenaeus, a professed Christian author of the late second century C.E. In a work called Against Heresies, Irenaeus writes concerning one of the many groups whose teachings he opposed: “They declare that Judas the traitor was thoroughly acquainted with these things, and that he alone, knowing the truth as none of the others did, accomplished the mystery of the betrayal. By him all things, both earthly and heavenly, were thus thrown into confusion. They produce a fictitious history of this kind, which they entitle the Gospel of Judas.”
Irenaeus was especially intent on refuting various teachings of Gnostic Christians, who claimed that they held revealed inner knowledge. Gnosticism is an umbrella term encompassing many groups, all with their own understanding and interpretation of Christian “truth.” Gnostics advanced interpretations based on their own writings, which proliferated during the second century C.E.
Such Gnostic gospels often claimed that the prominent apostles of Jesus misunderstood his message and that there is a secret teaching that Jesus passed on that was understood by only a select few. * Some of those Gnostics believed that the physical world was a prison. Therefore, the “creator god” of the Hebrew Scriptures was actually a lesser god who was opposed to the various perfect gods. One with true “knowledge” understood this “secret” and sought release from physical existence.
That is the approach reflected in the “Gospel of Judas.” It opens with the words: “The secret word of declaration by which Jesus spoke in conversation with Judas Iscariot, during eight days, three days before he celebrated Passover.”
Was this codex the very text that Irenaeus had written about, which for centuries was presumed lost? Marvin Meyer, a member of the initial team that analyzed and translated this codex, says that Irenaeus’ “brief description fits quite well the present Coptic text entitled the Gospel of Judas.”
THE FIGURE OF JUDAS IN THIS GOSPEL—A DEBATE AMONG SCHOLARS
In the “Gospel of Judas,” Jesus laughs scornfully when his disciples display their lack of proper knowledge. But Judas is the only one of the 12 apostles who shows an understanding of Jesus’ true nature. Therefore, Jesus privately shares with him “the mysteries of the kingdom.”
The initial textual reconstruction by the team of scholars was heavily influenced by Irenaeus’ description of the gospel. In their translation, Judas is favored by Jesus as the one disciple who would understand the mysteries and “reach” the “kingdom.” The misled apostles would name a replacement for Judas, but he would then become the “thirteenth spirit,” which would “exceed all [the other disciples]” because, says Jesus, “you will sacrifice the man that clothes me.”
Best-selling authors, such as Bart Ehrman and Elaine Pagels, who are also prominent scholars of early Christianity and Gnosticism, quickly published their own analyses and commentaries of the “Gospel of Judas” that substantially followed the textual reconstruction by the original team. However, shortly thereafter, other scholars, such as April DeConick and Birger Pearson, expressed concern. They claimed that in its bid for a media exclusive, the National Geographic Society rushed the publication of the ancient text. Additionally, the normal academic process of thorough analysis and prepublication peer review was bypassed, as the team was required to sign nondisclosure agreements.
None of the scholars who analyzed this text claim that it contains accurate historical information.
Working independently, DeConick and Pearson both concluded that some of the key sections of the fragmentary codex had been mistranslated by the previous scholars. According to DeConick’s reconstruction of the text, Jesus calls Judas the “Thirteenth Demon,” not the “thirteenth spirit.” * Jesus also tells Judas unequivocally that he will not ascend to the “kingdom.” Rather than ‘exceeding’ the other disciples, Jesus says to Judas: “You will do worse than all of them. For the man that clothes me, you will sacrifice him.” In DeConick’s view, the “Gospel of Judas” is an ancient Gnostic parody that mocks all the apostles. The definitive conclusion held by DeConick and Pearson is that in this “Gospel of Judas,” Judas is no hero.
WHAT CAN WE LEARN FROM THE “GOSPEL OF JUDAS”?
Whether they viewed the Judas of this gospel as a hero or a demon, none of the scholars who analyzed this text claim that it contains accurate historical information. Bart Ehrman explains: “It is not a Gospel written by Judas, or one that even claims to be. . . . It is not a Gospel written in Judas’s own time by someone who actually knew him . . . It is not a book, therefore, that will provide us with additional information about what actually happened in Jesus’ lifetime.”
The “Gospel of Judas” is a Gnostic text from the second century C.E., originally written in Greek. Whether this newly discovered “Gospel of Judas” is identical to the text that Irenaeus referred to remains a matter of scholarly debate. But the “Gospel of Judas” clearly offers important evidence only regarding a period in which “Christianity” had become fractured and divided by many competing sects and doctrines. Rather than undermining Scripture, the “Gospel of Judas” actually confirms apostolic warnings, such as that of Paul recorded at Acts 20:29, 30: “I know that after my going away . . . from among you yourselves men will rise and speak twisted things to draw away the disciples after themselves.”
* Footnote: These gospels are often named after the ones who are alleged to have better understood Jesus’ true teachings, as is the case with the “Gospel of Thomas” and the “Gospel of Mary Magdalene.” In all, about 30 such ancient writings have been identified.
The scholars who adopt the view that Judas is a demon in this text—one who understood Jesus’ identity better than the other disciples—note its similarity to the way the demons in the Gospel accounts of the Bible accurately proclaimed Jesus’ identity.—Mark 3:11; 5:7.
originally posted by: whereislogic
These 4 so-called gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, are generally not attributed to one person (unless you mean Jehovah God with that person but that still doesn't negate who wrote these books, they were written by 4 people who were inspired by God's holy spirit).
originally posted by: whereislogic
To keep people in the dark about what this good news is about wherever it is spoken of in the bible (the good news of the kingdom of God) and so they can swap in their own 'gospel'
originally posted by: whereislogic
It has been my observation that those who argue that the books in the bible are inconsistent have great difficulty in remaining honest with their argumentation for this. Misrepresenting what the bible is saying, cherry-picking bad translations that are conducive for their arguments, conveniently misinterpreting what the bible is saying in one place to prove it's inconsistent with something said elsewhere in the bible, stubbornly not accepting or considering any honest answers to their challenges in any reasonable openminded fashion per the description in 2 Timothy 4:3,4, making no effort to gain an understanding of what it's really teaching that is not inconsistent or making no effort to notice the straw man arguments or straw man versions of what the bible is supposedly teaching or saying that they are using, etc. Most glaring of all (or in all this) is the lack of knowledge and understanding that they are displaying about what the bible is really teaching and how some verses are to be understood so that they are not inconsistent with one another. To let the bible interpret the bible (one part of it elaborating or explaining another part and not using human interpretation that ends up being inconsistent with what is said elsewhere, which is common behaviour among Trinitarians, see previous video for an example).
originally posted by: whereislogic
What Is the “Gospel of Judas”?
They claimed that in its bid for a media exclusive, the National Geographic Society rushed the publication of the ancient text. Additionally, the normal academic process of thorough analysis and prepublication peer review was bypassed, as the team was required to sign nondisclosure agreements.
none of the scholars who analyzed this text claim that it contains accurate historical information.
originally posted by: whereislogic
Mark 3:11; Mark 5:7-8
[And they] have planted trees without fruit, in my name, in a shameful manner."
Jesus said to them,"Those you have seen receiving the offerings at the altar-^hat is who you are. That is the god you serve, and you are those twelve men you have seen. The cattle you have seen brought for sacrifice are the many people you lead astray [40] before that altar. [. . .] will stand and make use of my name in this way, and generations of the pious will remain loyal to him. After him another man will stand there from [the fornicators], and another [will] stand there from the slayers of children, and another from those who sleep with men, and those who abstain, and the rest of the people of pollution and lawlessness and error, and those who say, 'We are like angels'; they are the stars that bring everything to its conclusion. For to the human generations it has been said,'Look, God has received your sacrifice from the hands of a priest'— that is, a minister of error.
But it is the Lord, the Lord of the universe, who commands, 'On the last day they will be put to shame.'"
originally posted by: Dr1Akula
a reply to: Raggedyman
What God are you referring to?
As long as you talk about the Jewish God, the ''Jewish book'' is all you have...
Christianity is just a heresy of Judaism. If you deny the roots of the old testament you have nothing.