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originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: EasternShadow
No not what I am saying at all. But all things work together for good to those that love God and are called according to his purpose.
If you are not taking God's calling personally then all thing do not work together for good but for evil.
originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: EasternShadow
Secularism brought us the joys of social Darwinism, Stalin, Mao as well as Pol Pot to name a few
Social Darwinism the theory that individuals, groups, and peoples are subject to the same Darwinian laws of natural selection as plants and animals. Now largely discredited, social Darwinism was advocated by Herbert Spencer and others in the late 19th and early 20th centuries and was used to justify political conservatism, imperialism, and racism and to discourage intervention and reform.
This Holy Tribunal being therefore of intention to proceed against the disorder and mischief thence resulting, which went on increasing to the prejudice of the Holy Faith, by command of His Holiness and of the Most Eminent Lords Cardinals of this supreme and universal Inquisition, the two propositions of the stability of the Sun and the motion of the Earth were by the theological Qualifiers qualified as follows:
The proposition that the Sun is the center of the world and does not move from its place is absurd and false philosophically and formally heretical, because it is expressly contrary to Holy Scripture.
The proposition that the Earth is not the center of the world and immovable but that it moves, and also with a diurnal motion, is equally absurd and false philosophically and theologically considered at least erroneous in faith.
originally posted by: Raggedyman
Now that doesnt mean all atheists and secularists are evil, just that there are some who are as evil as those who used christianity and Christs teachings, (as manipulated as they were, remembering that those in laity couldnt read and were lied to by the clergy) to kill.
While I tend to agree that christianity is on the wane in some situations, I dont know if its dying.
Many non western countries are embracing it, maybe not the US and other western societies, country's in moral and financial decline.
I would disagree that we are fortunate today, the West grew off the back of the Luther's reformation, certainly nothing secular society provided
It seems the West is dying, I wonder what is causing that?
Secularism is the principle of the separation of government institutions and persons mandated to represent the state from religious institutions and religious dignitaries (the attainment of such is termed secularity). One manifestation of secularism is asserting the right to be free from religious rule and teachings, or, in a state declared to be neutral on matters of belief, from the imposition by government of religion or religious practices upon its people.[Notes 1] Another manifestation of secularism is the view that public activities and decisions, especially political ones, should be uninfluenced by religious beliefs or practices.[1][Notes 2]
Holyoake invented the term "secularism" to describe his views of promoting a social order separate from religion, without actively dismissing or criticizing religious belief. An agnostic himself, Holyoake argued that "Secularism is not an argument against Christianity, it is one independent of it. It does not question the pretensions of Christianity; it advances others. Secularism does not say there is no light or guidance elsewhere, but maintains that there is light and guidance in secular truth, whose conditions and sanctions exist independently, and act forever. Secular knowledge is manifestly that kind of knowledge which is founded in this life, which relates to the conduct of this life, conduces to the welfare of this life, and is capable of being tested by the experience of this life."[6]
Secularism ethics:
Main articles: Secular ethics and Secular religion
George Holyoake's 1896 publication English Secularism describes secularism as follows:
Secularism is a code of duty pertaining to this life, founded on considerations purely human, and intended mainly for those who find theology indefinite or inadequate, unreliable or unbelievable. Its essential principles are three: (1) The improvement of this life by material means. (2) That science is the available Providence of man. (3) That it is good to do good. Whether there be other good or not, the good of the present life is good, and it is good to seek that good.[24]
Secularism in late 20th century political philosophy
It can be seen by many of the organizations (NGO's) for secularism that they prefer to define secularism as the common ground for all life stance groups, religious or atheistic, to thrive in, in a society that honors freedom of speech and conscience. An example of that is the National Secular Society in the UK. This is a common understanding of what secularism stands for among many of its activists throughout the world. However, many scholars of Christianity and conservative politicians seem to interpret secularism more often than not, as an antithesis of religion and an attempt to push religion out of society and replace it with atheism or a void of values; nihilism. This dual aspect (as noted above in "Secular ethics") has created difficulties in political discourse on the subject.
Secular society[edit]
In studies of religion, modern democracies are generally recognized as secular. This is due to the near-complete freedom of religion (beliefs on religion generally are not subject to legal or social sanctions), and the lack of authority of religious leaders over political decisions. Nevertheless, religious beliefs are widely considered by many people to be a relevant part of the political discourse in many of these countries (most notably, in the United States and Saudi Arabia). This contrasts with other developed nations, such as United Kingdom, France, and China, where religious references are generally considered out-of-place in mainstream politics.
originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: EasternShadow
if God was in control then you would all be on your faces in fear not speaking a word.
originally posted by: ChesterJohn
While God has a plan he also lets man have his free will but int he end the plan of God prevails.
1 Samuel 15:3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.
That is it only 4 times in all it's uses is predestination is something that only applies to those who have trusted Christ already. Never does it teach some are chosen to be saved and other chosen to go to hell. The choice is ours and ours alone.
Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 ¶ For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Ephesians 1:3 ¶ Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
originally posted by: ChesterJohn
to your first point 1). IN every case of the word, and words in the Bible are important. Never once is predestinate used in a context of ALL MEN. In its context it only involves those who are Christians. I will list here the verses in their context for you to see The verses are always about beleivers not unsaved.
originally posted by: ChesterJohn
That is it only 4 times in all it's uses is predestination is something that only applies to those who have trusted Christ already. Never does it teach some are chosen to be saved and other chosen to go to hell. The choice is ours and ours alone.
Here is a link to a study on Calvinism and its T.U.L.I.P. especially the "U" Unconditional election. www.kingjamesbiblebelievers.com...
Authorship[edit]
Main article: Authorship of the Pauline Epistles
The first verse in the letter identifies Paul as its author. While early lists of New Testament books, including Marcion's canon and the Muratorian fragment, attribute the letter to Paul,[9] more recently there have been challenges to Pauline authorship on the basis of the letter's characteristically non-Pauline syntax, terminology, and eschatology.[10]
There are four main theories in biblical scholarship that address the question of Pauline authorship.[11]
The traditional view that the epistle is written by Paul is supported by scholars that include Frank Thielman, Ezra Abbot, Asting, Gaugler, Grant, Harnack, Haupt, Fenton John Anthony Hort, Klijn, Johann David Michaelis, A. Robert, and André Feuillet, Sanders, Schille, Brooke Foss Westcott, and Theodor Zahn.[1] For a defense of the Pauline authorship of Ephesians, see Ephesians: An Exegetical Commentary by Harold Hoehner, pp 2–61.[2]
A second position suggests that Ephesians was dictated by Paul with interpolations from another author. Some of the scholars that espouse this view include Albertz, Benoit, Cerfaux, Goguel, Harrison, H. J. Holtzmann, Murphy-O'Connor, and Wagenfuhrer.
Currently, most critical scholars think it improbable that Paul authored Ephesians. Among this group are Allan, Beare, Brandon, Bultmann, Conzelmann, Dibelius, Goodspeed, Kilsemann, J. Knox, W.L. Knox, Kümmel, K and S Lake, Marxsen, Masson, Mitton, Moffatt, Nineham, Pokorny, Schweizer, and J. Weiss.
Still other scholars suggest there is a lack of conclusive evidence. Some of this group are Cadbury, Julicher, McNeile, and Williams.
originally posted by: ChesterJohn
Those who hold that God chooses some to be saved or not be saved is a fabrication of demented men who wanted a following after themselves and not part of the truth of the word of God.
originally posted by: ChesterJohn
In response to your point 2) It is God Holiness that requires a punishment for sin/evil/iniquity/negative energy what ever you want to call it. If he chose to wipe out a whole population of people for corruption they were involved in he has the right to do so. Even if we look at it and think it is evil. He did afterwords repent of what he did and made a promise by creating the rainbow to remind us of it, that he would never destroy the whole of creation for mans corruption by flood. And if you read the Bible you will see that there was a flood when we first come into the reading of the Bible in Genesis 1:2.
originally posted by: ChesterJohn
Many repeat things they hear others say and never really study it out and see if it is really true. God/Jesus has never hurt innocent people as some would have us to believe. One thing Christians, true Christians are never called to kill anyone who will not believe on Jesus Christ. That is Gods job. If Islam's god Allah was the true god he would not need radical followers to kill those who will not believe in him. The god of Islam is not the true and living God. The true and living God in The LORD God Almighty Jesus Christ.
יח וַיִּתֵּן אֶל-מֹשֶׁה, כְּכַלֹּתוֹ לְדַבֵּר אִתּוֹ בְּהַר סִינַי, שְׁנֵי, לֻחֹת הָעֵדֻת--לֻחֹת אֶבֶן, כְּתֻבִים בְּאֶצְבַּע אֱלֹהִים. 18
And He gave unto Moses, when He had made an end of speaking with him upon mount Sinai, the two tables of the testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.
The only sacrifice accessible to God today is that of his son on the cross and his resurrection.
Rom 7:7 ¶ What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: EasternShadow
No, Once one makes a decision to believe on Christ then they are predestined the context suggest that. and It only applies to those what have believed.
It is according to his foreknowledge of who would choose to believe on Christ.
originally posted by: ChesterJohn
Read the article I linked too it really does explain all that very clearly
originally posted by: ChesterJohn
Today, Eternal punishment is for those who do not chose to believe on Christ. Eternal punishment is based on God's holiness which requires a sacrifice for salvation and peace, Jesus fulfilled that on the cross and when he rose from the dead.
originally posted by: ChesterJohn
There are many so called god's but the one True Almighty God is Jesus Christ, the fullness of the godhead bodily.
First Council of Nicaea ( 325 )
We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten of the Father [the only-begotten; that is, of the essence of the Father, God of God,] Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father;
originally posted by: ChesterJohn
While Paul reiterated the ten commandments of God the only one he did not elaborate on is Sabbath day observance. This is important because for the Christian they are not commandments that needed to be followed but became part of the Christians daily communication or to clarify that word Lifestyle. Even if violated they are not bound to damnation.
originally posted by: ChesterJohn
As stated in another post the Ten Commandments brought the knowledge of sin, thay cannot save they can only condemn.
originally posted by: ChesterJohn
All of God's words can be held n your hand in only one English Bible today and that is the Authorized Version. It is the only English Bible out their available with all of God's words in it, all the verses, sections and the words just as God wanted us to have them, for he preserved them to us as stated he would in Psalm 12:6, 7.
May God Countenance shine upon you
Luke 4: 8
4And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God. 5And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. 6And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it. 7If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine. 8And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
But the devil is a subtle worm; he does not give up at one defeat, for he knows human nature, and the strength of the forces which battle for him. He failed to get Jesus, but he came again, to get Jesus' church. He came when, through the power of the new revolutionary idea, the Church had won a position of tremendous power in the decaying Roman Empire; and the subtle worm assumed the guise of no less a person than the Emperor himself, suggesting that he should become a convert to the new faith, so that the Church and he might work together for the greater glory of God. The bishops and fathers of the Church, ambitious for their organization, fell for this scheme, and Satan went off laughing to himself. He had got everything he had asked from Jesus three hundred years before; he had got the world's greatest religion.
originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: EasternShadow
the preserved word of God, that is preserved by God himself (Ps 12:6, 7) is not any mans opinions.
If you start with that the word of God is a mans opinion as a premise of God's word, you will always be wrong in your estimation and judgement of God. Prejudice means you have prejudged something about a person to be true. You are a God hating bigot with no intention of knowing him or truth.
No need to go further I am out of here.
originally posted by: ChesterJohn
I will post something from another which could show what may be the plan of God and the end with esplaination . It ill take a while to get it typed out and posted soon.