Some thoughts on Islamophobia

a reply to: buster2010

Besides that 20% number is pure BS. They polled a couple of thousand people and that speaks for almost two billion. Who would be stupid enough to believe that?

You nailed it-you can't just extrapolate given the amount of variables. There is good and bad and shades of grey and plucking a number from a hat doesn't help.

originally posted by: TheErlenmeyerFlask
a reply to: Krazysh0t

What?

I said that muslims should (and one day will, have a reformation with many many many different denominations) like Protestants.

So we are in agreement in that or no? I'm confused

Muslims have had reformations in the past. Even as early as the 1970's they were very progressive. One may even be starting soon in Iran. My Iranian coworker told me that the Iranian elections are celebrating liberalism of the country again.

Furthermore, the Muslims in the Middle East aren't indicative of all Muslims. There are plenty of Muslims who live in the West who get along with us just fine. In fact, they largely outnumber the troublemakers. Just like any other segment of society.

a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

The only thing connecting each member of ISIS is Islam.

If you ever take a read of ISISs propaganda, for instance their magazine Dabiq, they give careful Islamic justification for terrorism, slavery, the caliphate, and other barbarities. They are Islamic by any definition.

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

If that's the case then I never want to hear the "no true Christian" argument ever again. This is not directed at you in particular just a general statement about your comment. Though I wouldn't think that you, who thinks spirituality in all its forms is stupid, would make such an argument.

originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
a reply to: LesMisanthrope

If that's the case then I never want to hear the "no true Christian" argument ever again. This is not directed at you in particular just a general statement about your comment. Though I wouldn't think that you, who thinks spirituality in all its forms is stupid, would make such an argument.

I was responding to the comment that Isis were not true Muslims. Such an argument is fallacious for a variety of reasons. And yes, I think spirituality in general is stupid.

There's no such word as Islamophobia or Islamophobic and even if they did exist they for logical reasons would not make any sense.

Right, most folks know me and my views, you also know I'm not a Muslim but married to a Muslim and have wonderful Muslim family in laws all over the world. Despite this the usual folks call me a bigot and Racist yet I'm actually in a far better position to see the difference between, Muslims, Bigots, Radicals and extremists.

First off, lets start by dividing the Muslim world that is out there and the differences in folks that leave Muslim countries to come here and why.

There are three forms of Muslims, there are the normal Muslims who use their religion in the same with Christians etc do bar the different religious angles. Then there are the Radicals whose ideals differ from standard Muslims and what they follow, they claim its the book but its parts of the book and mostly the scripture and Hadiths they follow. Lastly there are the extremists, the extremists are very much more radical and they are the 'do'ers', they follow almost their own interpretation and those of others Radicalised clerics, basically they are barely Muslim.

Notice I didn't include moderates, the reason, they don't exist, co called Moderates are really Radicals in disguise..

Now lets sub divide the people by those that left countries to escape terror and those that leave to create a Caliphate etc. there are indeed many who leave their country because their own people with support of others are killing and destroying, be it IS or their own governments its still Muslim vs Muslim but the numbered killed are already disgustingly high before any outside source joins in, that's what the OP forgets to make a real point of, instead he blames the West and his own folk for entering these countries yet many are invited in an attempt to HELP the people but others indeed do enter for their own political and economic gains. The people flee to avoid this but most are fleeing to just avoid being killed and recognise that the armies in there from outside are normally there to HELP, they hold no grudge apart from terrible mistakes that happen a part of war be it from poor intelligence or human error, and yes I'll bet some is deliberate but the numbers are small.

These people that leave from fear are welcomed in most places because they just want a new life away from that way of living.

Sadly what we also see are the darker sides of this, the people who tack along using illegal means to reach CHOSEN countries to seek economic only gains, along with them you have the problem people, those who seek to spread Islam by FEAR, there are significant numbers of these and these are spotted in droves as young males who have resources such as large sums of cash and mobile phones.

The other issue not being looked at is the cultural aspect, a hell of a lot of the people coming from fully Radicalised countries show ZERO attempts to mix, they seek other like minded people of their type and keep the notion of having a Radical life style her in the West. Now this is MUCH higher in happening than the media shows and its this wish to ignore our laws ans the wish for Sharia that is the basis of peoples 'problem' with these folk, yet instead of seeing this issue the SJW's / Liberals etc scream RACIST / BIGOT and ISLAMOPHOBIA at the people who don't like this attempt to change the culture here. I'm sorry but its like walking in to a persons house and ripping out their carpets because you don't like them. Its their house its NOT for you to believe you have the right because you did it in your mates house. Like it or not their are a great number of types like this who just point blank refuse to take on our customs, instead they demand their system in brought in. You try to build a Christian church in Iraq, Syria etc and if you are still alive the next day then your church will be destroyed and the excuse is that its their way of life.

Sadly when these types get here the hypocrite suddenly emerges, where the extreme happens is when the religious is used to threaten non believers, the Quran says this is not what you do but the radicals and extremists follow the man made radical clerics verses.

So we have the normal Muslims who are 100%, you now have the radicals who don't like us and want their ways here but then it steeps up and the extremists try to take steps to force and use fear and violence to achieve their ways, these along with their radical supporters want this country to be Muslim and not just Muslim but one type of Muslim and like it or not folks these people are here, and in bigger numbers than you like to admit. Are these numbers massive, not really but its the methods used in this ideology that cause so much fear and concern. Take Manchester, young people DELIBERATELY targetted for the maximum disgust and fear, one man who kills 22, its very rightly frightens people and this guy didn't do this because he was annoyed at the US etc going in to a country, they did it to FORCE Islam on others, not ordinary Islam, the EXTREME version. You see there is a difference and there are people who are not the knuckle dragging morons from Britain First that DO know the difference and DON'T hate ALL Muslims, they know who is who. Sadly too many folk are not educated about the very OBVIOUS differences and do indeed 'tar' all Muslims but this is changing, sadly the actions of the Extremists do not help allow this education because all people see and hear is ISLAM and the SAME carnage and the same demands.

The Muslim community MUST do MORE to distance and OUT these people, Manchester saw signs of this but there needs to be a HUGE increase in this. But lets not be stupid here and pretend the West is at fault here, these terrorists do NOT follow Islam and are doing it to invade and change, this is contrary to what the book says but while people like the OP try to point the finger at people like me and use BS to actually support the terrorist by grouping them with all Islam and attacking those who do not want them here as people attack ALL Islam then we won't get anywhere and YOU guys become the problem. Its going to take ALL of us to stamp out these terrorists but the bottom line is that the Muslim community MUST do more, these people DO live amongst them and really do have huge support, I've seen it first hand time after time. Again I say to people to go visit a mosque on a Friday around 2pm and watch and listen, you will see the very people I talk of mixed in with the ordinary worshippers and just ask them what they think of you, they will tell you and you won't be happy.

I'm fed up with people attacking 'ordinary' folk who don't want terrorists amongst us and labelling the a bigots etc, again, not the knuckle draggers. Its made matters worse when these liberal types don't even have a clue about what is going on because 'its not in their patch', a bit like the Swedish leaders who live in a certain area miles away from any of this and then say its not happening because they don't see it.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, once these terror types see a weakness to stop them then they will exploit it and it will become more 'normal' to see the attacks. Just today in the UK we dropped cases against the Trogan Horse teachers', these were teachers cultivating incredibly extremist views in Muslim only schools to young kids. Why did we drop it, how many more would be terror kids do we need.

originally posted by: Mclaneinc
There's no such word as Islamophobia or Islamophobic and even if they did exist they for logical reasons would not make any sense.

Oxford dictionary disagrees:

Dislike of or prejudice against Islam or Muslims, especially as a political force.

Right, most folks know me and my views, you also know I'm not a Muslim but married to a Muslim and have wonderful Muslim family in laws all over the world. Despite this the usual folks call me a bigot and Racist yet I'm actually in a far better position to see the difference between, Muslims, Bigots, Radicals and extremists.

Oh it's the old "I'm not a racist because I have friends that are the type I'm about to verbally abuse." deflection that usually proceeds most intolerant rants on the internet. I'm sure this one won't disappoint.

Notice I didn't include moderates, the reason, they don't exist, co called Moderates are really Radicals in disguise..

That will be news to my boss and co-workers who largely co-exist with the west like any other religious moderate.

I'm fed up with people attacking 'ordinary' folk who don't want terrorists amongst us and labelling the a bigots etc, again, not the knuckle draggers. Its made matters worse when these liberal types don't even have a clue about what is going on because 'its not in their patch', a bit like the Swedish leaders who live in a certain area miles away from any of this and then say its not happening because they don't see it.

But labeling ordinary folk who happen to be Muslim is ok.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, once these terror types see a weakness to stop them then they will exploit it and it will become more 'normal' to see the attacks. Just today in the UK we dropped cases against the Trogan Horse teachers', these were teachers cultivating incredibly extremist views in Muslim only schools to young kids. Why did we drop it, how many more would be terror kids do we need.

All you are doing is helping the terrorists by fueling the hate against Muslims. Sad too since you claim to be married to one.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

Oxford dictionary disagrees:


Dislike of or prejudice against Islam or Muslims, especially as a political force.

So what "Arachnophobia" means ? Dislike of or prejudice against Spiders ? Lets see what Oxford Dictionary says about :

Extreme or irrational fear of spiders.

Oxford Dictionary Arachnophobia

I guess they must update their definitions.

Peace

a reply to: Seed76

Or words and language are organic and fit the context of what they are describing instead of adhering strictly to their historical etymology.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

Or words and language are organic and fit the context of what they are describing instead of adhering strictly to their historical etymology.

Or its a word simply made up, to prevent criticism on Islam, since criticism is not considered a "Phobia".

Peace

originally posted by: firefromabove
If Jesus is the "Father" then there is no such thing as a "triune godhead".

he also begs the Father to save him from death.

he also does not know "the hour" and admits only the Father knows

How can Jesus be the Father?

There is God the father and then there is His son, Michael. Michael created the earth and man. Michael is the God who came to Earth in the form of a human being (sent by God) to die for our sins as Jesus. Jesus and God and Michael are the same person. Not to be confused with God, His father who is ruler over all.

We can't comprehend the laws that govern sin vs righteousness in the universe, so it doesn't make much sense unless a God taking on the weight of all sin past and future on his shoulders is what it takes to cleans the universe of evil and sin. We still have to meet God half way and ask for forgiveness.

So yeah... God the father did not create us, Jesus did. And that's why Jesus plays the central role from the dawn of time to the end of time, when Satan and his followers are destroyed and the rift that sin created in the universe will be mended.

God (Jesus) is love, always had been. As for the trinity... God the father, Jesus, Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is a mediator, manifesting in our lives and making sure we are heard when we pray.

Read the Bible. It's in there.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

I agree with you. there has been good efforts, but more is needed. look at the Protestant reformation for example, it took a great deal of effort, blood, and traveling...

1539 Great Bible aka bishops bible and the catholic religious hierarchy,

insert Queen "Bloody" Mary and all the Christians she had killed, Elizabeth and the hope in a future for Protestants...

1557-1599 The Geneva Bible, mass printed for protestants (the version that came over on the mayflower when protestants were escaping Catholic persecution)


1582-1610 the Catholic church went on a 'counter-reformation' campaign creating the Douay-Rhiems Bible

1604, as you are all aware, King James split the difference with the "authorized" king james version - though he disliked the Geneva's disregard for church Hierarchy.

Do you see a lot of comparisons with Islam and Muslim countries? I sure do.

My point is, I want to see Muslims, of all walks, to stand up and do a 'jihad' for their religion and pull it out of the hands of whatever comparison you'd like to draw. I'd like to see them do well... but as of right now, they are not.

Though I do not believe in Islam or allah - I don't want them all to die. I would much prefer to sit down and talk about the bible and theirs and talk it out. but if you cannot come in peace and talk about it, and you just want to fight, kill women and children... then I got you, I'll be your huckleberry.

originally posted by: Seed76
a reply to: Krazysh0t

Or words and language are organic and fit the context of what they are describing instead of adhering strictly to their historical etymology.

Or its a word simply made up, to prevent criticism on Islam, since criticism is not considered a "Phobia".

Peace

All words are "made up". That is a nonsense statement.

a reply to: TheErlenmeyerFlask

I hope you know that while the Christians were all living in their own excrement and other unhealthy habits during the Middle Ages, Muslims were doing things like inventing Algebra.

Though I do not believe in Islam or allah - I don't want them all to die. I would much prefer to sit down and talk about the bible and theirs and talk it out. but if you cannot come in peace and talk about it, and you just want to fight, kill women and children... then I got you, I'll be your huckleberry.

Why don't you actually attempt to reach out to these people and talk to them instead of deciding the positions of every Muslim for them? I happen to work with a bunch of them and the company I work for is Muslim owned. These conversations come up from time-to-time completely unprovoked or even right after a high profile terrorist attack happens. All you are doing is confirming to me your non-desire to deny ignorance and see if your stereotyping is really true or not. I've heard all of this ignorant rhetoric before. It doesn't hold up to scrutiny.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

All words are "made up". That is a nonsense statement.

You still dodging the issue. How come criticizing Islam considered a "Phobia" ?

I hope you know that while the Christians were all living in their own excrement and other unhealthy habits during the Middle Ages, Muslims were doing things like inventing Algebra.

Actually that is far from the truth. There might have been some issues here and there, but not so dire as you describe it.

Were the Middle Ages, also known as the Dark Ages, characterized by oppression, ignorance, and backwardness in areas like human rights, science, health, and the arts? Or were they marked by progress and tolerance? Anthony Esolen, an English Literature professor at Providence College, explains.

Peace

originally posted by: Seed76
You still dodging the issue. How come criticizing Islam considered a "Phobia" ?

That isn't what the definition said and you know it.

Actually that is far from the truth.

Yet again you misrepresent my argument. First, I never called them the Dark Ages; and second, they DEFINITELY lived in their own excrement during these times. Oh and third, Algebra was definitely being codified during these times.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

That isn't what the definition said and you know it.

The only thing that i know is that whenever someone criticizes Islam is labelled "Islamophobe". So yeah my question still stands.

Yet again you misrepresent my argument. First, I never called them the Dark Ages; and second, they DEFINITELY lived in their own excrement during these times.

Hardly a misrepresentation of your argument. In fact that demolishes your argument that in "Middle Ages"/"Dark Ages" people were living in their excrement during that time.

Peace

originally posted by: Seed76
The only thing that i know is that whenever someone criticizes Islam is labelled "Islamophobe". So yeah my question still stands.

Well I don't care about that. I care about the conversation in front of me. How about you address that instead of the voices in your head? There is a BIG difference between critiquing a faith's beliefs and labeling all of its followers a certain way.

a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

I also think that a lot of the hate towards Islam is misdirected. I think people need to recognise that those who commit these acts of violence in the name of Islam are not true Muslims. They belong to a death cult that has evolved over years of theological thinking, yes it might have its routes in Islam but it is not Islam, its a evil death cult that is hated by Muslims just as much as the rest of us

I agree. What people mistakenly refer to as "radical Islam" is in fact "fundamentalist Islam"—Wahhabism. It is a *political ideology*—not a *religious ideology*. Saudi Arabia is the fountain from where this ideology flows from.

However, this fact does not fit the narrative for those who are "Islamphobic". After all, these people would have to find a new place *within their own minds* to project their repressed anger that has absolutely NOTHING to do with the topic and more to do with an unfulfilled life.

S+F for your fair-minded approach and empathy.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

Well I don't care about that. I care about the conversation in front of me.

You brought the "Islamophobia" definition on the discussion. So again, why criticizing Islam, people are getting called "Islamophobes" ? Is not prejudice and certainly not hatred.

How about you address that instead of the voices in your head?

Well, someone is getting triggered.

There is a BIG difference between critiquing a faith's beliefs and labeling all of its followers a certain way.

What you are failing to understand is that the so called "moderates" are not "moderates" at all. I have posted some videos on my posts here on this thread which clearly proving that. No-one denies that there are also good people (millions of them), but nowhere enough to be considered "critical mass". Islam needs to be reformed and that can only happen from within. Until that happens the values of Islam are incompatible with the values of the west.

Peace