Were the Jews Expecting the Son of God?

originally posted by: NOTurTypical

originally posted by: JoshuaCox

originally posted by: NOTurTypical

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: NOTurTypical

and they were well versed in scripture?

Probably yeah, I think humans throughout all ages were more versed in their scriptures before the invention of television. People did a lot of reading in their free time in ages past.

When they could read....

Not sure literacy was wide spread until the last 200 years.

That's true too, but generally in a church or in a synagogue they would be read to out of the scriptures by someone who was educated.

The churches definately stayed literate. That said that doesn't mean it hasn't been tinkered with.

originally posted by: NOTurTypical

originally posted by: JoshuaCox

originally posted by: NOTurTypical

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: NOTurTypical

and they were well versed in scripture?

Probably yeah, I think humans throughout all ages were more versed in their scriptures before the invention of television. People did a lot of reading in their free time in ages past.

When they could read....

Not sure literacy was wide spread until the last 200 years.

That's true too, but generally in a church or in a synagogue they would be read to out of the scriptures by someone who was educated.

lets keep in mind this was 2k ish years ago

Unlike today they didn't have a book on the back of every pew...

Its highly unlikely anyone could actually read scriptures... or even look at the scrolls they were written on in the temple...

example... IF peter could read... John Mark becomes pointless

a reply to: Akragon

I know, at that time there were scrolls and rabbis would read from them to the people. Like what Jesus did when He stood in the synagogue announcing His ministry while reading from Isaiah.

originally posted by: JoshuaCox

originally posted by: NOTurTypical

originally posted by: JoshuaCox

originally posted by: NOTurTypical

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: NOTurTypical

and they were well versed in scripture?

Probably yeah, I think humans throughout all ages were more versed in their scriptures before the invention of television. People did a lot of reading in their free time in ages past.

When they could read....

Not sure literacy was wide spread until the last 200 years.

That's true too, but generally in a church or in a synagogue they would be read to out of the scriptures by someone who was educated.

The churches definately stayed literate. That said that doesn't mean it hasn't been tinkered with.

Correct, the manuscripts from Alexandria were tinkered with quite a bit. The Gnostics were known for removing verses they didn't agree with.

originally posted by: NOTurTypical
a reply to: Akragon

I know, at that time there were scrolls and rabbis would read from them to the people. Like what Jesus did when He stood in the synagogue announcing His ministry while reading from Isaiah.

right... Of course there are exceptions to the rule but generally people could not read or write...

Paul was definitely an exception... we know he was brilliant and highly educated...

Jesus could likely read and write... James as well...

a reply to: NOTurTypical

The point being... ONE person called him God (maybe)

the rest did not... and they wouldn't have had the ability to make that connection through scripture in any case

Most wouldn't have known about the verses Christians consider "prophecy" in the OT

And said passages were not considered prophecy about their messiah anyways

a reply to: Akragon

The point being... ONE person called him God (maybe)

The rest were present in the room when Thomas declared it. And Jesus doesn't rebuke Thomas. And it's recorded by John, who also declared in the first chapter of his gospel account that Jesus is God.

a reply to: Akragon

And Peter was somewhat literate as well. Same with Jude.

originally posted by: NOTurTypical
a reply to: Akragon

The point being... ONE person called him God (maybe)

The rest were present in the room when Thomas declared it. And Jesus doesn't rebuke Thomas. And it's recorded by John, who also declared in the first chapter of his gospel account that Jesus is God.

John, supposedly, also said that Jesus said this:

John 20:17
Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"

a reply to: windword

That statement is consistent with Christianity, the Father is God, so is the Son.

originally posted by: NOTurTypical
a reply to: Akragon

The point being... ONE person called him God (maybe)

The rest were present in the room when Thomas declared it. And Jesus doesn't rebuke Thomas. And it's recorded by John, who also declared in the first chapter of his gospel account that Jesus is God.

except that part of Johns gospel is narrative... which John was famous for

And in that very same book Jesus himself declares to be less then God... And never equal to...

Equality wasn't ever an issue with Jesus... he makes it perfectly clear

Yes i know you will say "that was while he was in human form" but we both know thats just Christian dogma

originally posted by: NOTurTypical
a reply to: windword

That statement is consistent with Christianity, the Father is God, so is the Son.

Jesus never supported the creation of another Dogma for his benefit *Christianity*. He was an Essene and sole purpose was to disrupt the Sadduce/Pharasee teachings by exposing another kingdom to mankind (that of the eternal).

originally posted by: NOTurTypical
a reply to: windword

That statement is consistent with Christianity, the Father is God, so is the Son.

John 20:17
Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"

No it isn't. It isn't consistent with Jesus and God being the same person, when he clearly says that he has a God that he is ascending to.

originally posted by: windword

originally posted by: NOTurTypical
a reply to: windword

That statement is consistent with Christianity, the Father is God, so is the Son.

John 20:17
Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"

No it isn't. It isn't consistent with Jesus and God being the same person, when he clearly says that he has a God that he is ascending to.

This is true; and similarly Jesus does not differenciate himself from us. He is in the procsss of ascension (just as we are). There is no identity crisis happening here; Jesus has no illusions he is God.

Well, Jesus did say he had the authority to forgive sins
Matthew 9:6
But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power to forgive sins.

He often referred to himself as Son of man--some examples:

For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself. And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man. (John 5:27)

At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. (Matthew 24:30)

So be on your guard; I have told you everything ahead of time. But in those days, following that distress, ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’ At that time men will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens. (Mark 13:24-27)

At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. (Luke 21:27)

Where was that term used in the OT?

In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed. (Daniel 7:13-14)

When asked at his trial whether he was the Christ, the Son of the Blessed, he responded

I am: and ye shall see The Son of man sitting on the right hand of power and coming in the clouds of heaven.

(Recognize I am? Exodus 3:14 God said to Moses I AM WHO I AM)

He was outside of time, there apparantly at the beginning and the end:

Verily verily I say unto you, before Abraham was I am. (John 8:58)

Hence the mystery behind Yahushua. He never claims to be God, but he is also unique among all humans. He can divine the future, read thoughts, heal, forgive sins and bring the dead back to life. He did not exalt himself but dined with sinners and publicans. He was most drawn to the humble and faithful. He did as his Father asked of him, and spent his time ministering to others. Never sinful, never proud, his message one of love--for the Father and for each other.

originally posted by: zosimov
Well, Jesus did say he had the authority to forgive sins
Matthew 9:6
But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power to forgive sins.

He says it was given him, not something that Messianic Jews were ever focused on the Messiah accomplishing, in fact most Jews in Jesus day expecting the Messiah would have no scripture to base such a claim on so that sounds interpolated.

Ezekiel was called Son of Man by God. I wonder which one gets to judge?

He often referred to himself as Son of man--some examples:

For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself. And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man. (John 5:27)

At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. (Matthew 24:30)

So be on your guard; I have told you everything ahead of time. But in those days, following that distress, ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’ At that time men will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens. (Mark 13:24-27)

I think it is safe to say after 2000 years that this was about that age or a metaphor for death or something else and not a literal prophecy as it hasn't happened yet and that is how you test a prophet.

At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. (Luke 21:27)

Where was that term used in the OT?

In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed. (Daniel 7:13-14)

When asked at his trial whether he was the Christ, the Son of the Blessed, he responded

I am: and ye shall see The Son of man sitting on the right hand of power and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Using another prophets prophecy to write a story about a human you want to be who Daniel wrote about wouldn't be hard at all. This Kingdom of Daniel's never existed and isn't Christianity.

(Recognize I am? Exodus 3:14 God said to Moses I AM WHO I AM)

That doesn't make him Yahweh just a man who uses Biblical puns to describe himself, a bit grandiose for someone who failed and whose first followers all died long before the New Testament was written despite what some Biblical scholars GUESS no proof of a written Gospel exists in the first century or the epistles all dates are guesses and hyper sensitive to religion not history.

He was outside of time, there apparantly at the beginning and the end:

Verily verily I say unto you, before Abraham was I am. (John 8:58)

Hence the mystery behind Yahushua. He never claims to be God,

Because he knew he wasn't and so did 3 centuries of believers until he was MADE God by a council of fools under pressure to choose a God for the new State Religion to be compiled (written and redacted).

His own disciples and Apostles didn't consider him God. Pagans made him God.

but he is also unique among all humans. He can divine the future, read thoughts, heal, forgive sins and bring the dead back to life. He did not exalt himself but dined with sinners and publicans. He was most drawn to the humble and faithful. He did as his Father asked of him, and spent his time ministering to others. Never sinful, never proud, his message one of love--for the Father and for each other.

It's called mythology and just like Greco-Roman or Greco-Egyptian it was not meant to be taken as history but the further from his death time passes the less the truth (that it is mythology) matters to people. It becomes a hindrance to the devolved spirituality of the modern day that none of these "miracles" ever happened.

That doesn't mean Jesus is unique among humans because of them but because they are SAID to have been done by him.

originally posted by: NOTurTypical
a reply to: Akragon

The point being... ONE person called him God (maybe)

The rest were present in the room when Thomas declared it. And Jesus doesn't rebuke Thomas. And it's recorded by John, who also declared in the first chapter of his gospel account that Jesus is God.

Calling a human lord or "my lord" does not make them God, sorry but people are called that everyday and Jews are no exception with the Baal Shem Tov today.

If that's not an interpolation (which it probably is, if not an embellishment) it still is no basis for calling someone God. Hebrews weren't forbidden to call people lord or else the words Baal (lord or prince) and Adon wouldn't exist seperatley.

I guarantee you that no Hebrew New Testament from the first century will ever be discovered for clarification purposes so I would say that if God decided to make Jesus God he would have done a better job of record keeping and not made it a believe or perish scam like it is today.

A scam with no textual basis so they weren't very bright, whoever compiled the New Testament and declared Jesus God.

It ain't in scripture that the Messiah is God and if Jesus was the Messiah he still is Jesus, not God.

originally posted by: NOTurTypical
a reply to: LucianusXVII

Nobody called him or calls him Immanuel because that prophecy had nothing to do with the Messiah and Jesus' disciples didn't think he was God. They never call him God and only (if even) informally as lord.

John 20:27-29

"Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed."

If you think that one obscure in meaning passage is enough to declare someone God when it is either an expression, interpolation (most likely scenario) or something that only exists in the New Testament that doesn't fit with the expectations of Messianic expectant Jews of any time but resembles pagan mythology and the decree of a human council about a maybe human person 300 years after it happened with no first century testimony occuring I got a bridge for sale.

Email me at [email protected]

You don't require much in the form of believable evidence do you? Just 2000 years of corrupt religion to "prove" Jesus was the Messiah, Son of God and God without any evidence besides what the most corrupt religion in history claims (but doesn't actually believe itself) is the testimony of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John but literally could have been written and rewritten by literally anyone.

I don't think I could fool myself into believing it never mind another person and I have clocked years of research on the subject and know that it is a pack of lies as do most critically thinking people.

Good luck with the chasing of the wind.

a reply to: LucianusXVII

Don't try to move the goalposts now. You said He was "never" called God by His disciples in response to my statement that His disciples called Him God. Thomas and John called Jesus God, and the other disciples were present in the room when Thomas called Him God and they saw that Jesus never rebuked Thomas, but commended him.

So you're wrong, more than one disciple called Him God and Jesus never rebuked them for it.

originally posted by: LucianusXVII

This thread, my friend, is what you call an exercise in futlity.

Jesus's disciples were murdered because they believed in what they saw. They were contemporaries, not people who came along 300 years later.

2000 years have passed, so that's about 2 days in God's time. You say that the mere passage of time eradicates prophesy, then I suppose you don't think the Jewish Messiah will ever come along either? But sorry to say, you don't make the Law.