Were the Jews Expecting the Son of God?

a reply to: pthena

I haven't read "Catch 22" either, but I sure know what one is.

I know for certain that Heller's book is authentic and that he channeled the real King David because of his (David's) reaction, in the book, to Michelangelo's uncircumcised statue of him. He's STILL really mad about that!

a reply to: JoshuaCox

Were the Jews expecting a warrior king who was the son of God, or just (just lol) a warrior King who would be the next prophet? All I can find from Google is a bunch of Christian sites with Jewish in their site name and every story claiming Christianity was right all along. Lol Which would be extremely silly for a religion to be like "oops were were wrong and Christianity was right... Guess we will all convert." PS.. What is up with all the Christian sites pretending to be Jewish?

Son Of God? That was the very charge against Jesus by the house of Annus & Caiaphas. Jesus stood trial and was acquitted on that very same charge by the rabbinical Judaic powers to be. No, the Jews did not believe that the Most High God El had a Begotten Son. Granted, God did have created people who were called sons and daughters but not Begotten of His own substance. The key to this understanding is the celestial substance and terrestrial substance.

As the Begotten Son (The Word of God) was brought forth in the celestial world, He was the visibility of The Most High El. God who was total Spirit and invisible to His celestial creation then begat His image [The Word] to establish His image to His celestial creation. Your Creator was not The Most High EL but was His Word who became Jesus. Read John Chapter One --

As the Word of God who was in the celestial realm became flesh, means that only His image of celestial substance was changed to the terrestrial substance. He still retained His celestial portion which is His spirit. You have the same two fold portion of celestial and terrestrial life that Jesus had. You have a terrestrial image of flesh and a celestial spirit of life. The difference being that you had no preexistence whereas Jesus did have a preexistence as the Word or Image of the Most High EL. As your terrestrial substance dies your celestial substance will be given a celestial body and you shall then gain total celestial existence in the New Jerusalem. In other words you were procreated but Jesus was Begotten by The Most High EL in both the celestial and terrestrial realms.

Meanwhile back to earth. The rabbinic Jews believe nothing of this sort. Their doctrine is that eventually the Jews will become the rulers of this world and will reestablish the throne of David with their sacrifices reinstated. Their Mashiach will be a seed of the linage of David who will rule the world as the King, live a long and glorious life then die and be replaced in like manner till the end of the world. The Jews have no Begotten of their God whatsoever.

It is tradition that Christians do regard Jews as somewhat special but that has been an abused privilege for a good many years. In all reality it is most respectful to honor all people who are loving and peaceful but not to give each one the same respect. All Jews are not loving and respectful and are just as prone to sin as any other people. Simply because one has the genetics of the tribes of Israel does not gain favor with The Most High EL. There are other requirements that Jesus has established that one can become a son or daughter in their resurrection.

Now I realize that I could get a lot of flack over what I have said and that some Hebrews were favored in the past but the doctrine of the Christ Jesus tells me that all who are of God are born into the same spirit. This does not mean that all rewards are the same in the celestial realm but it does mean that salvation knows no terrestrial boundaries. Each and every child of God is most precious to the Father even though some are chosen for various purposes but we should not give credit to those who are not children of the Father. There are many Jews as well as other people who are not His children but ride on the coat tails of the justified.

a reply to: windword

I know for certain that Heller's book is authentic

I wish I could find that lost dialog of Socrates that I found once, and seem to have lost again.

In it Socrates is describing some exploits of a Twentieth century Serviceman who says "beaucoup..."
He's interrupted by one of his students "what's bookoo?"
Socrates: "That's French. It means a lot"
Student: "What's French?"
Socrates: "That's a language that will someday be spoken, albeit rather crudely by Americans."
Student: "Who is Americans?"
Socrates: "Say, did I just hear a knock on the door? Run go see if that's the guy who's designated to bring me my nightcap."

I'm sure once the original manuscript is found and compared to this fragment hastily produced from memory that the scholars will easily see which is authentic, and which is out of place interpolation. Or not.

But seriously, back to David. I got to wondering, "Why don't all the descendants of David get together and pick one of themselves to be Messiah, Emperor of the World?" A quick Google search produced this:

We Are Family: King David’s Descendants Gather for ‘Reunion’
...
The organizers said that they have traced (or are in the process of tracing) all the descendants of King David and are in the process of reconstituting what is, in effect, a royal family. This is a royal line with considerable pretension, promising to produce no less than the fated messiah, son of David, reborn king of Israel and harbinger of the End of Days.

There was no talk at the New York dinner of launching a full-blown Israeli monarchist party. But there have been some preliminary meetings among Israeli far-rightists, aimed at precisely that.
...
But can we really trace back family histories over 3,000 years? According to David Einsiedler, writing in the same scholarly journal, “Avotaynu: The International Review of Jewish Genealogy,” “Careful examination of all available sources leads to the inescapable conclusion that there is no complete, reliable and positive proof of claims of descent from King David... It is possible that there may be actual descendants somewhere, but at present, no one can produce sufficient and unquestionable proof of this claim.”
...
While tradition does specify that the messiah will come from King David’s family, and while that understandably might reinforce the urge to identify the King’s descendants, there is a paradox at the heart of all this. David, after all, was not born into “royalty.” He was a shepherd boy, a hick from the sticks. If that isn’t enough to make the concept of a royal bloodline suspect, there is always the tradition of David’s own blood heritage, which takes him back to Ruth the Moabite, a convert to Judaism. Thus, the great king hails from a family with an unimportant rural pedigree compounded by a combination of Jewish and non-Jewish lineage.

With deference less to Robert Penn Warren than to Humpty Dumpty, it’s hard to avoid the conclusion that all King David’s children cannot put him back together again.

ETA

That Socrates manuscript has already been heavily redacted. It contained classified material.

originally posted by: Seede
a reply to: JoshuaCox

Were the Jews expecting a warrior king who was the son of God, or just (just lol) a warrior King who would be the next prophet? All I can find from Google is a bunch of Christian sites with Jewish in their site name and every story claiming Christianity was right all along. Lol Which would be extremely silly for a religion to be like "oops were were wrong and Christianity was right... Guess we will all convert." PS.. What is up with all the Christian sites pretending to be Jewish?

Son Of God? That was the very charge against Jesus by the house of Annus & Caiaphas. Jesus stood trial and was acquitted on that very same charge by the rabbinical Judaic powers to be. No, the Jews did not believe that the Most High God El had a Begotten Son. Granted, God did have created people who were called sons and daughters but not Begotten of His own substance. The key to this understanding is the celestial substance and terrestrial substance.

As the Begotten Son (The Word of God) was brought forth in the celestial world, He was the visibility of The Most High El. God who was total Spirit and invisible to His celestial creation then begat His image [The Word] to establish His image to His celestial creation. Your Creator was not The Most High EL but was His Word who became Jesus. Read John Chapter One --

As the Word of God who was in the celestial realm became flesh, means that only His image of celestial substance was changed to the terrestrial substance. He still retained His celestial portion which is His spirit. You have the same two fold portion of celestial and terrestrial life that Jesus had. You have a terrestrial image of flesh and a celestial spirit of life. The difference being that you had no preexistence whereas Jesus did have a preexistence as the Word or Image of the Most High EL. As your terrestrial substance dies your celestial substance will be given a celestial body and you shall then gain total celestial existence in the New Jerusalem. In other words you were procreated but Jesus was Begotten by The Most High EL in both the celestial and terrestrial realms.

Meanwhile back to earth. The rabbinic Jews believe nothing of this sort. Their doctrine is that eventually the Jews will become the rulers of this world and will reestablish the throne of David with their sacrifices reinstated. Their Mashiach will be a seed of the linage of David who will rule the world as the King, live a long and glorious life then die and be replaced in like manner till the end of the world. The Jews have no Begotten of their God whatsoever.

It is tradition that Christians do regard Jews as somewhat special but that has been an abused privilege for a good many years. In all reality it is most respectful to honor all people who are loving and peaceful but not to give each one the same respect. All Jews are not loving and respectful and are just as prone to sin as any other people. Simply because one has the genetics of the tribes of Israel does not gain favor with The Most High EL. There are other requirements that Jesus has established that one can become a son or daughter in their resurrection.

Now I realize that I could get a lot of flack over what I have said and that some Hebrews were favored in the past but the doctrine of the Christ Jesus tells me that all who are of God are born into the same spirit. This does not mean that all rewards are the same in the celestial realm but it does mean that salvation knows no terrestrial boundaries. Each and every child of God is most precious to the Father even though some are chosen for various purposes but we should not give credit to those who are not children of the Father. There are many Jews as well as other people who are not His children but ride on the coat tails of the justified.

Not ,what is the later Christian interpretation of the Torah?


What did pre first century and modern Jews think about the prophecy?

That was an incredible amount of off subject writing lol.


In edit... Missed the part in the middle lol, my bad.

People forget pre ww2 the Jews were the bad guys of Christianity. After the holocaust it just wasn't cool to be anti Semitic anymore.

originally posted by: JoshuaCox


Were the Jews expecting their messiah to be a warrior King who was the son of God?

Or was the son of God part a later addition specific to Christianity?
.......

The Jews were awaiting the Hamashiach( the anointed one) in the mold of King David(a warrior king conqueror) not the son of the creator God.However Yahoshua never said he was the Jewish Hamashiach and the Jewish leaders knew he was not their Hamashiach that is why they had him murdered.

Most Christians believe Jesus is the Jewish messiah and the Jews cannot believe in him.The Christians believe Jesus is God however nothing Yahoshua said corroborates that.He only told t his disciples he was the son(seed) of the Father ..the creator God.

Yahoshua's statement and who he is has NOTHING to do with the "spiritual" mumbo jumbo Christianity and the spiritualist believe.Being the seed of the father is analogous to being like a spermatozoon is the "seed" of a human.The seed must mate with a ovum to form a zygote(which the root meaning is marriage) that grows to an embryo then a fetus until it is fully formed and is then “delivered” into the world when it is born.

The name Yahoshua in Hebrew means Yahweh delivers(saves).This all relates to the parable of the “seed” Yahoshua said if you do not understand this parable of mine how can you understand any parable of mine.

The point is the Jews(and Christians) believe religious doctrines of a mashiach/messiah(christ) that their God will send to save them.However they don’t have any idea what that means.The Jews believe one thing(in many variations) and the Christians believe another(in many variations and neither are correct it is just doctrines of men they extrapolated from books they believe their God wrote and they understand yet nothing of what they believe and think they undesrtand is reasonable in the least.

Yahoshua proclaimed one very simple statement .... the Good news.... that has profound meaning.He proclaimed the coming of the kingdom of the creator God.He gave zero literal details yet Christianity extrapolates thousands of doctrines of men.However he simply stated ALL of creation is in a process of being conceived (parable of the seed) and the Good news is ALL of mankind WILL receive this Life(spirit) and be “born anew”.

What Yahoshua stated over and over is the Good news because the temporary bad news is ..you are going to die.very soon. HOWEVER the seed of life(the word of the creator God) has been sown into the material realm.There is nothing to believe there is only to receive and KNOW ALL of mankind will receive this new Life… THAT is the christ(the power of the creator God).The religious belief of a messiah /christ is just that..belief… not knowing.

originally posted by: zosimov

.........

Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

A name is the nature and character of the person or thing named.It has nothing to do with a pronunciation of a word.For example the name Jesus doesn’t mean anything.It is a transliteration of a transliteration of a translation.Christianity recites it like an incantation with zero idea what it means or what a name is.
A name(character and nature) is very important.To “know” the name of someone or something is to know their nature and character. Christianity has proven for 2 thousand years they do not know and have no idea what the name Yahoshua means.

They have condemned billions in the name of their Jesus to the infinite punishment of Hell if they don’t “believe” in the name of their Jesus which is nothing but an idol.All the “names” of Yahoshua are aspects of the nature and character encapsulated in THE name Yahoshua(Yahweh delivers/saves).

It doesn’t matter one bit if someone pronounces it differently what matters is KNOWING the name which Christianity clearly does not since they do not believe the creator God is deliverance they believe their doctrines of religion are.

a reply to: JoshuaCox

What did pre first century and modern Jews think about the prophecy?

What do you mean by pre first century and modern Jews think about the prophecy? It would depend upon which era of the pre first century you are referencing. You can go as far back as as to the time Jews became known as Jews but then they were at that time not rabbinic Jews. The prophets taught Torah through direct revelations from the Creator. The rabbis did not teach through the prophets but through their own understandings which were not the same as the prophets. The very same thing is happening today with the three main divisions of Judaism. There is no more unity in Judaism as there is in Christianity.

The prophets were correct in their prophecies. They just did not have all of the story which was revealed in Revelation by John. But neither did the Apostles have all of the story and most all died without knowing the Revelation of John. You must first combine the Prophets prophesies of the Messiah with John's Revelation and then you will realize that the prophets are correct.

originally posted by: JoshuaCox


This came up in my western civilization class and our very evangelical teacher didn't know.



Were the Jews expecting a warrior king who was the son of God, or just (just lol) a warrior King who would be the next prophet?

A Davidic Messiah was expected by some and an Aaronic priestly Messiah by others. Some believed in a Heavenly Messiah as well, but not a god or Son of God.

There is no prophecy about the Son of God incarnating in human form who would be a sacrificial atonement for the sins of believers.

That was invented by Rome and Paul. The Messiah was supposed to usher in the Messianic age that would put Israel in the Empire seat and bigger than Solomon's Kingdom.

They are still waiting and not for the "Son of God who is God" but a human Messiah and not even angelic but pure human. Like Joshua and Solomon put together.

All I can find from Google is a bunch of Christian sites with Jewish in their site name and every story claiming Christianity was right all along. Lol

Which would be extremely silly for a religion to be like "oops were were wrong and Christianity was right... Guess we will all convert."

PS..

What is up with all the Christian sites pretending to be Jewish?

Schemes trying to lure Jews in and convert them. Jews are too smart though, except the Messianic Jews who are confused.

originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: JoshuaCox

The Jews are still awaiting their Messiah, they leave an empty chair at their tables on the pass over feast
That's a great introduction for you
Go study the meaning of the pass over feast and what it is all about, it's a kind of parable

I am somewhat surprised you are asking the question, your post seems hostile and belittling at the same time

Can you answer this simple question JC, are the Jews awaiting a Messiah now ?

Isn't the empty seat there for Elijah?

originally posted by: AgarthaSeed
a reply to: JoshuaCox

The Christian world will always support and defend Judaism for political reasons. Scripture has nothing to do with it at a certain point.

So why? Because so much of the western world's governments will bend over backwards for Israel. Simple as that.

We support Israel because we believe that the Abrahamic and Davidic covenants were everlasting covenants.

originally posted by: Akragon

originally posted by: zosimov

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: Raggedyman

Pretty sure he was asking about jewish scripture, not the Christian interpretation of it

Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Yeah i saw it the first time you posted it... that passage wasn't ever supposed to be a prophecy about their messiah...

Further more, No one ever called Jesus Immanuel... or God with us

So your point is moot

His disciples did.

a reply to: NOTurTypical

and they were well versed in scripture?

a reply to: NOTurTypical

Evidently
I have been misled, not surprised really
There are plenty of things I have been told that are not true
Cheers

But further research suggests it's for an unknown guest, who knows?

originally posted by: NOTurTypical

originally posted by: AgarthaSeed
a reply to: JoshuaCox

The Christian world will always support and defend Judaism for political reasons. Scripture has nothing to do with it at a certain point.

So why? Because so much of the western world's governments will bend over backwards for Israel. Simple as that.

We support Israel because we believe that the Abrahamic and Davidic covenants were everlasting covenants.

It's both.... The politicians use the fact prodestants have interpreted the bible to include the Jews as the chosen "race". To motivate voting blocks for political power.

Screw policy positions when you can just accuse your opponent of being anti Isreal.

originally posted by: NOTurTypical

originally posted by: Akragon

originally posted by: zosimov

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: Raggedyman

Pretty sure he was asking about jewish scripture, not the Christian interpretation of it

Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Yeah i saw it the first time you posted it... that passage wasn't ever supposed to be a prophecy about their messiah...

Further more, No one ever called Jesus Immanuel... or God with us

So your point is moot

His disciples did.

Nobody called him or calls him Immanuel because that prophecy had nothing to do with the Messiah and Jesus' disciples didn't think he was God. They never call him God and only (if even) informally as lord.

No different than the Baal Shem Tov today really. Whoever leads that sect is called lord (Baal means lord) today so nothing strange about calling your leader lord in Orthodoxy even today. Adonai is The Lord but Baal just means lord.

I marvel at the arrogance of Christianity saying that Jesus is God and the Son of God and the Messiah with the former title (God) never even applied to Jesus in the New Testament, just Messiah and the Son.

The Messiah is not God and never was prophecied to be God. Nobody calls him Immanuel because that prophecy was retroactively applied to him and not his name.

So, no, Jesus was NOT called Immanuel by his disciples (which means God with us) who certainly knew that the prophecy was already fulfilled before Jesus was born and that it was not Messianic, as Jews know today.

If you need proof that an error was made in applying Immanuel to Jesus just look at the fact that almah only means young maiden and doesn't mean or imply virginity but youth. An almah could be a prostitute.

So I think you are grasping at straws because you can't let go of the mythology and focus on the wise words of the Nazarene. Both teach Wisdom but in different ways, Jesus just teaches wisely and interprets meaning to myths or parables and mythology preserves esoteric spiritual wisdom.

You don't actually think that the Bible is a literal story and historical account, do you?

Because if Jesus was a man God why not Mithras or Osiris or Hercules or Zeus or Quetzalcoatl?

Because of what is popular in the place you grew up your religion is chosen for you even if you don't believe it. There is no chance that I will die a Hindu because it is a foreign culture that I don't know much about and not one of the dominant faiths in my area (although outside of down unda' I have the highest population per city of Mandaeans not in Asia). I had more chance of becoming Christian because it's the most popular religion.

Since when did the most popular mean the correct and true of anything, especially religion? I believe "narrow" and "few will find" sum it up quite nicely(the Way, the true path) and there are WAY more than a few people on the WIDE road of Christianity.

Jesus was no Christian but a Nazirite Jew and never said he was God so why would I agree with the Romans decision to elevate Jesus to Godhood when he was not, even in his own words, a God or the God? He doesn't even think of himself as "good" nevermind God. He says his power was given him by God, not on his own. Jesus is the creation and God the Creator, worshipping Jesus at all or calling him God is against everything he taught. Christianity is disguised paganism.

Men are not gods, not yet anyway and Jesus would have died and decayed like every man, woman or child who died before him. It was Latin and Egyptian (pagan) Christianity that made the man into a God.

Fact.

a reply to: LucianusXVII

Nobody called him or calls him Immanuel because that prophecy had nothing to do with the Messiah and Jesus' disciples didn't think he was God. They never call him God and only (if even) informally as lord.

John 20:27-29

"Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed."

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: NOTurTypical

and they were well versed in scripture?

Probably yeah, I think humans throughout all ages were more versed in their scriptures before the invention of television. People did a lot of reading in their free time in ages past.

originally posted by: NOTurTypical

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: NOTurTypical

and they were well versed in scripture?

Probably yeah, I think humans throughout all ages were more versed in their scriptures before the invention of television. People did a lot of reading in their free time in ages past.

When they could read....

Not sure literacy was wide spread until the last 200 years.

originally posted by: JoshuaCox

originally posted by: NOTurTypical

originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: NOTurTypical

and they were well versed in scripture?

Probably yeah, I think humans throughout all ages were more versed in their scriptures before the invention of television. People did a lot of reading in their free time in ages past.

When they could read....

Not sure literacy was wide spread until the last 200 years.

That's true too, but generally in a church or in a synagogue they would be read to out of the scriptures by someone who was educated.

originally posted by: NOTurTypical
a reply to: LucianusXVII

Nobody called him or calls him Immanuel because that prophecy had nothing to do with the Messiah and Jesus' disciples didn't think he was God. They never call him God and only (if even) informally as lord.

John 20:27-29

"Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed."

It's not a fair counter point unless it is an exact translation from the Torah.

I am asking what the Jews believed/believe. Not what Christian tradition says they should believe.