Were the Jews Expecting the Son of God?

originally posted by: zosimov

originally posted by: LucianusXVII

This thread, my friend, is what you call an exercise in futlity.

Jesus's disciples were murdered because they believed in what they saw. They were contemporaries, not people who came along 300 years later.

You are citing what the church says of itself so it has no one in the first century writing about any of this but maybe Paul, who writes about himself and also is not (besides the so called genuine epistles) written about by anyone outside of Luke's (maybe) Acts and people were and writing epistles in his name for 100-150 or more years. Literal pseudo epigraphs and a few alleged found basically useless (as to what Christ was like) letters that are unreliable at best ad evidence of anything divine or a single teaching from Christ because he never met him, didn't know the man.

You can let it all ride on the.00001% chance that Paul was a man who had a post-Ascension visit from Jesus and wasn't just a cranky Yew who wasn't liked by anyone not in his cult including James, Peter and John the Apostles themselves as Luke's Acts depicts so briefly but I am calling b.s.

2000 years have passed, so that's about 2 days in God's time. You say that the mere passage of time eradicates prophesy, then I suppose you don't think the Jewish Messiah will ever come along either? But sorry to say, you don't make the Law.

I don't know but I don't believe Jesus was God if he existed at all he was minor man major myth and not really virgin born.

originally posted by: zosimov

originally posted by: LucianusXVII

This thread, my friend, is what you call an exercise in futlity.

Jesus's disciples were murdered because they believed in what they saw. They were contemporaries, not people who came along 300 years later.

2000 years have passed, so that's about 2 days in God's time. You say that the mere passage of time eradicates prophesy, then I suppose you don't think the Jewish Messiah will ever come along either? But sorry to say, you don't make the Law.

The thread was about what the anchient and modern Jews believed about THEIR prophecy.


I find it super interesting that ( according to the Jews) they weren't even predicting a "Jesus." They weren't even expecting a prophet or priest. It was a warrior King who would provide them with the hereditary line that would lead them.


Historically it makes a lot of sense when you look back at all the " wars of Ascension ". Where claimants fought civil wars over the throne.

a reply to: JoshuaCox

Yeah, I understand.. and the thread did get off topic.

In answer to your original question, many Jews did convert in Jesus's day, thus the beginning of Christianity. They obviously believed in what they saw/heard.

Many didn't convert. Some began a concerted effort to destroy/degrade all things Christian (the Babylonian Talmud was the continued teachings of the Pharisees and extremely offensive in references to Christ and also contains horrific punishments for followers of Christ). Others dismissed Jesus and went along with life as they knew it, without any real antipathy towards Christians.

As for whether Jesus fulfills all of the requirements of the OT Messiac prophesies, well you can see that opinions are (and were, even in Jesus's day) divided. That's about the best answer you are going to get. You have most likely already made up your mind on the subject, so there is little that you will gain from hearing religious debate. Right?

Anyway, it was an interesting thread.

a reply to: zosimov

Anyway, it was an interesting thread.

It was? Do you think your opinion is the final say? It isn't.

As for whether Jesus fulfills all of the requirements of the OT Messiac prophesies, well you can see that opinions are (and were, even in Jesus's day) divided.

No, not even in Jesus' day", if he existed at all, did the Jews expect their Messiah to be Yahweh incarnated, meant to be betrayed by his people and murdered by their oppressors, in order to sacrifice himself to himself for the sake of those who believe, only to rise from the dead and ascend back to Heaven.

There was no such prophecy or expectation. The New Testament even confirms that to be the case.

John 20:9 They still did not understand from Scripture that Jesus had to rise from the dead.

That piece of Christian Dogma still had to skillfully crafted by Paul.

a reply to: LucianusXVII

Here's a quote that might make ancient culture bit more clear to the modern mind:

"Some might argue that, without writing, the same beliefs could not have prevailed over such a long period of time, but in reality, oral traditions are far more faithfully passed on than the written word. A written account can be open to multiple interpretations, distortions, and transformations, depending on the time and situation, economic imperatives, or the whims of political or religious leaders. Orally transmitted traditions, in contrast, must be rigorously and accurately passed on in order to survive in all their subtlety, and in the smallest of details. Furthermore, the written word, thought to be the surer and safer means of communication, is not only less reliable but also more permeable to outside aggression than are the more secret codes of an oral system. During the time of the Roman Empire, for instance, the fact that the CeltsOffsite Link were still 'prehistoric'—meaning that they hadn't recorded their history, ways, and beliefs— made it much harder for the conquering Romans to devise an appropriate strategy to subjugate them" (Desdemaines-Hugon, Stepping-Stones. A Journey Through the Ice Age Caves of the Dordogne [2010] 75).

Every historical "fact" we have is based on questionable evidence (modern speculation on ancient artifacts, written texts that were often comprised by victors, facts that were recorded centuries after the events and based on the oral traditions).
Plutarch's history of Alexander the Great was written 400 years after his death!
So we can either believe the knowledge that was passed down to us or not. Our choice.

a reply to: windword

Wow. What a scathing reply

I guess it wasn't interesting to you, no matter.

Jews converted to Christianity in Jesus's day so something happened to shatter their previous beliefs. They even risked death to do so.

We weren't there so I suppose we won't know until all is revealed to us (or never). We'll see.

As for this,

John 20:9 They still did not understand from Scripture that Jesus had to rise from the dead.

Some may nevr understand that this is God's loving promise of everlasting life manifested for all who wish to see, as well as a fulfillment of prophesy that the Messiah will not be destroyed.

Isaiah 53: .... "For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace."

God's ways have always been mysterious.

a reply to: zosimov

Jews converted to Christianity in Jesus's day so something happened to shatter their previous beliefs. They even risked death to do so.

There were all kinds of Judeo/Christian sects around in the 1st century, people were converting all the time! Look at John the Baptist's following! Also, people died for their beliefs all the time. Romans killed more than 100,000 Jews who wouldn't bow to Caesar. Romans counted on soldiers who believed their gods would protect and honor them, even unto death.

Even today teenage suicide bombers are willing to die for the Jihad that they believe in. Belief doesn't make anything true or worthy.

Again, there is no Old Testament Hebrew prophecies of Yahweh incarnating and being crucified as a blood sacrifice to himself, and then rising from the dead, in order to purchase the souls of believers from Satan. As Christians portray his story, the Jews were not looking for nor expecting any such Messiah.

The fact that people have since believed the Jesus story to be true, does not make it fit the Old Testament Hebrew Messiah scenario.

a reply to: windword

Isaiah 53:7-9
He was oppressed and He was afflicted, Yet He did not open His mouth; Like a lamb that is led to slaughter, And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers, So He did not open His mouth. 8By oppression and judgment He was taken away; And as for His generation, who considered That He was cut off out of the land of the living For the transgression of my people, to whom the stroke was due? 9His grave was assigned with wicked men, Yet He was with a rich man in His death, Because He had done no violence, Nor was there any deceit in His mouth.10But the LORD was pleased To crush Him, putting Him to grief; If He would render Himself as a guilt offering, He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days, And the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand. 11As a result of the anguish of His soul, He will see it and be satisfied; By His knowledge the Righteous One, My Servant, will justify the many, As He will bear their iniquities.

a reply to: zosimov

Isaiah's hero is not the future Yahweh incarnate, his son nor even the Messiah. Isaiah's "Suffering Servant" is none other that the literary personification of the Nation of Israel.

This is the case in Jewish scriptural interpretation today, as it was during the 1st & 2nd centuries.

The earliest known example of a Jew and a Christian debating the meaning of Isaiah 53 is the example from 248 cited by Origen. In Christian church father Origen's Contra Celsus, written in 248, he writes of Isaiah 53:
Now I remember that, on one occasion, at a disputation held with certain Jews, who were reckoned wise men, I quoted these prophecies; to which my Jewish opponent replied, that these predictions bore reference to the whole people, regarded as one individual, and as being in a state of dispersion and suffering, in order that many proselytes might be gained, on account of the dispersion of the Jews among numerous heathen nations.
Origen Circa 180AD
en.wikipedia.org...

Who is God’s Suffering Servant?

a reply to: windword

Yes I've heard what they say. He said/she said.

I guess we'll find out eventually.

originally posted by: zosimov
a reply to: windword

Isaiah 53:7-9
He was oppressed and He was afflicted, Yet He did not open His mouth; Like a lamb that is led to slaughter, And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers, So He did not open His mouth. 8By oppression and judgment He was taken away; And as for His generation, who considered That He was cut off out of the land of the living For the transgression of my people, to whom the stroke was due? 9His grave was assigned with wicked men, Yet He was with a rich man in His death, Because He had done no violence, Nor was there any deceit in His mouth.10But the LORD was pleased To crush Him, putting Him to grief; If He would render Himself as a guilt offering, He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days, And the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand. 11As a result of the anguish of His soul, He will see it and be satisfied; By His knowledge the Righteous One, My Servant, will justify the many, As He will bear their iniquities.

All throughout Isaiah the nation of Israel is called the servant of God and that is the case with the suffering servant of Isaiah 53. Jewish tradition has always been that the suffering servant was the nation of Israel because of the dispersion during the reign of the Babylonian Empire and the suffering of Jews from post exilic days to yesterday are attributed to this prophecy that seems to describe A servant suffering for someone elses sins but the correct translation is FROM not FOR, and the word translated death in English is deathS, plural, in the Hebrew language and Jesus only died once.

The problem is nothing about this passage is remotely Messianic and was available for use in weaving the tale of Jesus' crucifixion and was used as is plainly obvious to any thinking person. Unfortunately Jesus wasn't the subject of Isaiah 53 and the servant throughout Isaiah means Israel and the use of the singular is due to it being a single nation, not a person, that suffers because it has sinned.

Israel suffers from its own sins as a nation, is the point of this passage. Not a prophecy of a dying savior or Messiah but a nation who would suffer because of its sins, ruling Jesus out entirely as he can't have suffered from sin if he doesn't actually sin which is why you get the deliberately mistranslated FOR when the correct is FROM.

Christianity also doesn't realize that Isaiah is a staunchly monotheistic book that says God created no other Gods at anytime whatsoever and never will, and Jesus even as the Word/Logos is a CREATED being.

Sorry Christianity, you just don't have the prophecy to make Jesus the Messiah unless you ignore mistakes and are careless about accuracy.

You will just have to rely on your 'faith' to justify your beliefs as they don't match with scripture or Jewish thought. It's inconceivable that the Messiah be executed as an atonement for Israel's or anyone's sins as each man is responsible for his own sin and can't be atoned for with the death of the Messiah.

It makes a good fictional portrayal of a first century Jewish Rabbi who was A suffering servant i.e., Israelite and unjustly put to death, but the application of Messiah is likely post mortem grief turned oral tradition turned Greco-Roman myth.

Which was not hard with material like Isaiah 53 to misinterpret!

a reply to: LucianusXVII

Does God contradict Himself? He is clearly speaking of two servants in Isaiah-- Isreal and the Messiah
The following info can be found here:
www.jesusplusnothing.com...

Called Servant / Israel & chosen by God
Isa 42:1 “Here is my servant, whom I uphold,
my chosen one in whom I delight
Isa 49:3 He said to me, “You are my servant, Israel, in whom I will display my splendor.”


Called Servant / Israel / Jacob and chosen by God
Isa 41:8-9 “But you, O Israel, my servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen, you descendants of Abraham my friend

The servant Messiah is an individual (singular)
Isa 42:6 I, the LORD, have called you in righteousness; I will take hold of your hand. I will keep you and will make you to be a covenant for the people and a light for the Gentiles.
Isa 50:6 I offered my back to those who beat me, my cheeks to those who pulled out my beard; I did not hide my face from mocking and spitting.

The servant Israel is a nation (plural)
Isa 43:10 “You are my witnesses,” declares the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen.

The servant Messiah is righteous in character
Isa 53:11 by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities.

Servant Israel is unrighteous & stubborn in character
Isa 46:12 Listen to me, you stubborn-hearted, you who are far from righteousness.
Isa 48:1-4 “Listen to this, O house of Jacob, you who are called by the name of Israel...you who invoke the God of Israel— but not in truth or righteousness... For I knew how stubborn you were; the sinews of your neck were iron, your forehead was bronze.

The Lord delights in His servant Messiah
Isa 42:1 Here is my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen one in whom I delight.

The Lord poured out his anger on His servant Israel
Though the Lord loves and chose the nation of Israel, their sin led to Him pouring out his anger upon them
Isa 48:24-25 Who handed Jacob over to become loot, and Israel to the plunderers? Was it not the LORD, against whom we have sinned? For they would not follow his ways; they did not obey his law. So he poured out on them his burning anger…

The servant Messiah listens to God
Isa 50:4 He wakens me morning by morning, wakens my ear to listen like one being taught.

The servant Israel was deaf to God’s call
Isa 42:18-19 Hear, you deaf; look, you blind, and see! Who is blind but my servant, and deaf like the messenger I send?
Isa 48:8 You have neither heard nor understood; from of old your ear has not been open.

The servant Messiah is not rebellious to God
Isa 50:5 The Sovereign LORD has opened my ears, and I have not been rebellious; I have not drawn back.

The servant Israel rebelled against God
Isa 48:8 Well do I know how treacherous you are; you were called a rebel from birth.

The servant Messiah opened the eyes of the blind
Isa 42:6-7 I, the LORD, have called you in righteousness... to open eyes that are blind, to free captives from prison.

The servant Israel was blind
Isa 42:18-19 Look, you blind, and see! Who is blind but my servant?

a reply to: zosimov


Are you seriously going to ask me "does God contradict himself?'' in response to a well thought out rebuttal such as I have provided?

Seems absurd as God didn't actually write the Bible.

I am satisfied that the application of Isaiah 53 to the Messiah has been sufficiently disproven and have nothing more to add as I said all that needs to be said and I am not answering a redundant question like that.

Isaiah 53 is talking about the nation of Israel, not the Messiah and not Jesus. Just because Christians THINK it is a Messianic prophecy doesn't mean it is or ever was and to Jews it wasn't and isn't and the Gospels just use the Old Testament willy nilly as proof texts for Jesus that can be systematically picked apart causing Christians much grief from people who pay attention to details.

They just don't hold up to scrutiny, sorry.

You still have faith though.

a reply to: LucianusXVII

Righteousness is not used to describe nations, but rather individuals in the Bible. Do you really think there is a righteous nation, anywhere? In the book of Isaiah, Israel is described as treacherous and a rebel.

Isa 53:11 by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities.

Isaiah is not claiming that the nation of Israel is righteous, and that it will justify many. That's absurd. It is quite clear who he was speaking about.

originally posted by: zosimov
a reply to: LucianusXVII

Does God contradict Himself? He is clearly speaking of two servants in Isaiah-- Isreal and the Messiah
The following info can be found here:
www.jesusplusnothing.com...

Called Servant / Israel & chosen by God

Isa 42:1 “Here is my servant, whom I uphold,
my chosen one in whom I delight
Isa 49:3 He said to me, “You are my servant, Israel, in whom I will display my splendor.”

This is a perfect example of Isaiah using servant to refer to Israel, the nation.

Called Servant / Israel / Jacob and chosen by God

Isa 41:8-9 “But you, O Israel, my servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen, you descendants of Abraham my friend

Another excellent example of just what I said, thanks.

The servant Messiah is an individual (singular)

It always has been singular as Israel was a single nation. If you're going to attempt to say that the singular usage of servant means the Israelites in one passage but not the other, don't bother because that's a flawed approach and actually proves MY point, not yours.

Isa 42:6 I, the LORD, have called you in righteousness; I will take hold of your hand. I will keep you and will make you to be a covenant for the people and a light for the Gentiles.
Isa 50:6 I offered my back to those who beat me, my cheeks to those who pulled out my beard; I did not hide my face from mocking and spitting.

The servant Israel is a nation (plural)
Isa 43:10 “You are my witnesses,” declares the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen.

The servant Messiah is righteous in character
Isa 53:11 by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities.

Israel is righteous at times and not righteous at others. It's the theme throughout the whole book so referring to the servant as righteous in one passage and sinful in another is consistent with it being Israel still and no reason at all to assume that it's a different servant unless YOU want it to be.

Servant Israel is unrighteous & stubborn in character
Isa 46:12 Listen to me, you stubborn-hearted, you who are far from righteousness.
Isa 48:1-4 “Listen to this, O house of Jacob, you who are called by the name of Israel...you who invoke the God of Israel— but not in truth or righteousness... For I knew how stubborn you were; the sinews of your neck were iron, your forehead was bronze.

The Lord delights in His servant Messiah

There is no "servant Messiah" as the passage isn't Messianic and YOU keep adding Messiah to what the text says in YOUR words.

The Messiah is never mentioned and Isaiah is talking about Israel, when they are a righteous servant AND a disobedient one. You want it to be about Jesus so are inventing a seperate servant based on righteousness but Israel was both servants which are the same servant but at different times and different generations. Israel isn't always disobedient as they are the ''chosen'' servant and human they are going to have good eras and bad.

And that's what happened. Righteous or disobedient Isaiah's servant is Israel.

Isa 42:1 Here is my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen one in whom I delight.

The Lord poured out his anger on His servant Israel
Though the Lord loves and chose the nation of Israel, their sin led to Him pouring out his anger upon them
Isa 48:24-25 Who handed Jacob over to become loot, and Israel to the plunderers? Was it not the LORD, against whom we have sinned? For they would not follow his ways; they did not obey his law. So he poured out on them his burning anger…

The servant Messiah listens to God
Isa 50:4 He wakens me morning by morning, wakens my ear to listen like one being taught.

The servant Israel was deaf to God’s call
Isa 42:18-19 Hear, you deaf; look, you blind, and see! Who is blind but my servant, and deaf like the messenger I send?
Isa 48:8 You have neither heard nor understood; from of old your ear has not been open.

The servant Messiah is not rebellious to God
Isa 50:5 The Sovereign LORD has opened my ears, and I have not been rebellious; I have not drawn back.

The servant Israel rebelled against God
Isa 48:8 Well do I know how treacherous you are; you were called a rebel from birth.

The servant Messiah opened the eyes of the blind
Isa 42:6-7 I, the LORD, have called you in righteousness... to open eyes that are blind, to free captives from prison.

The servant Israel was blind
Isa 42:18-19 Look, you blind, and see! Who is blind but my servant?

Again, the servant is Israel the nation.

Taking advantage of the fact that they sinned at times and were righteous at others to say when it's bad Isaiah means the Jews and when good means Jesus is flawed because Isaiah was referring to Israel as the servant at all times and never about the Messiah. It's just a matter of picking and choosing what YOU want Isaiah to be talking about your idea of Jesus but the FACT is it's ALWAYS talking about Israel and NEVER the Messiah or Jesus.

Nice try though.

Deuteronomy 9:4

4 After the Lord your God has driven them out before you, do not say to yourself, “The Lord has brought me here to take possession of this land because of my righteousness.” No, it is on account of the wickedness of these nations that the Lord is going to drive them out before you. 5 It is not because of your righteousness or your integrity that you are going in to take possession of their land; but on account of the wickedness of these nations, the Lord your God will drive them out before you, to accomplish what he swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. 6 Understand, then, that it is not because of your righteousness that the Lord your God is giving you this good land to possess, for you are a stiff-necked people.

originally posted by: zosimov
a reply to: LucianusXVII

Righteousness is not used to describe nations, but rather individuals in the Bible. Do you really think there is a righteous nation, anywhere? In the book of Isaiah, Israel is described as treacherous and a rebel.

No, nations are also called good and evil, why would you think that? It is well known that Israel was at times viewed as a righteous nation, and at other times a rebellious one.

Israelites are humans, capable of collective good and collective evil and many other nations besides Israel are called sinners to the righteousness of the Israelites AND by God, in the Bible and the world.

Isa 53:11 by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities.

Isaiah is not claiming that the nation of Israel is righteous, and that it will justify many. That's absurd. It is quite clear who he was speaking about.

No, he is talking about the Israelites. It's absurd why, because Israelites are always evil all the time, never righteous?

THAT'S absurd, to think that the chosen people of the Bible, the Israelites, being called righteous, is absurd (to think or say).

Of course at times, such as when Yahweh's annointed King of Persia was used to ''redeem'' the Israelites, that Yahweh thinks they deserve redemption due to them deserving redemption by being righteous and serving Yahweh.

To think that because the word righteous is used its absurd to think it's the Israelites is pretty...absurd. Israelites can't be righteous?

Well , good thing for them Darius and Cyrus came along and liberated them from slavery. Yahweh thought they were sufficiently righteous enough to annoint the King of Persia to liberate them, your opinion doesn't really matter.

Oh, and if anyone is annointed in Isaiah (annointed is the meaning of Messiah) in Isaiah's time it was the King of Persia.

originally posted by: zosimov
Deuteronomy 9:4

4 After the Lord your God has driven them out before you, do not say to yourself, “The Lord has brought me here to take possession of this land because of my righteousness.” No, it is on account of the wickedness of these nations that the Lord is going to drive them out before you. 5 It is not because of your righteousness or your integrity that you are going in to take possession of their land; but on account of the wickedness of these nations, the Lord your God will drive them out before you, to accomplish what he swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. 6 Understand, then, that it is not because of your righteousness that the Lord your God is giving you this good land to possess, for you are a stiff-necked people.

So... I'm gonna assume that since you have switched over to Deuteronomy that we are not talking about Isaiah anymore and you have no rebuttal so are shifting course.

I'm taking my win and going to bed.

a reply to: LucianusXVII

I thought we were talking about the righteousness of nations? And this passage clearly states that Israel (as a whole) is not a righteous nation, as no collective nation has shown to be thus far.

But I'm sure your "win" will bring you great glory.

a reply to: zosimov

The real life, flesh and blood Messiah of Isaiah is Cyrus the Great.

The Persian emperor Cyrus is the only foreigner in the Bible to be identified as the messiah or anointed one of Yahweh, the Israelite God. Isaiah tells us that Yahweh spoke “to his messiah, to Cyrus, whom I [Yahweh] took by his right hand to subdue nations before him” (Isa 45:1). The other people called messiah or anointed one in the Bible aren’t designated Yahweh’s messiah, as Cyrus is.

Cyrus the Great (559–530 B.C.E.), whom Isaiah 45 calls Yahweh’s anointed, was the Persian king of Fars, a southern province of present-day Iran. By 546 he had defeated the wealthy king Croesus of Lydia (in modern Turkey), and the Lydian capital of Sardis fell to him along with all the other cities of Asia Minor. Cyrus then turned his attention to the most powerful kingdom in Central Asia: Babylon. By the end of 539, he had taken Babylon and captured its king, Nabonidus. The Persian Empire founded by Cyrus extended from the Aegean to Central Asia.
www.bibleodyssey.org...