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Were the Jews Expecting the Son of God?

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posted on Sep, 12 2016 @ 12:49 AM
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a reply to: Raggedyman




But I know Messianic Jews who accept that Christ is God


Then they're Christians.


Messianic Judaism is a syncretic movement that combines Christianity—most importantly, the Christian belief that Jesus is the Jewish Messiah—with elements of Judaism and Jewish tradition.




posted on Sep, 12 2016 @ 01:00 AM
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a reply to: windword

Really, yeah they are, once Jews, now christian
Star for you
edit on 12-9-2016 by Raggedyman because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 12 2016 @ 06:16 AM
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originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: JoshuaCox


Yeah and he is saying that according to any Jew you ask. They where not prophesied to have a son of God in the first place. Which is easily verifiable either way.

So there is nothing fundamentalist about it.


Yeah
Thats exactly what he is saying

But I know Messianic Jews who accept that Christ is God

www.gotquestions.org...

other key pointers in the OT, yes they are debatable and I dont want to debate faith with anyone
www.sharefaith.com...

You believe or you dont



That's not "Jews in general..." That's a very specific small subset of Jews right????


Kinda like if I said no Christian needs a priest for confession, when according to the largest sect of Christianity you do. (Bad example since a big portion of Christians arnt Catholic..

I'm gonna google precent of population for messianic Jews.



posted on Sep, 12 2016 @ 06:20 AM
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originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: windword

Really, yeah they are, once Jews, now christian
Star for you





Ahhhh I guess that's where all the Jewish looking Christian sites come from..Cause it's converts from Judaism and I'm sure Christians not completely happy with Christianity.



posted on Sep, 12 2016 @ 06:22 AM
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originally posted by: Akragon

originally posted by: zosimov

originally posted by: Akragon

originally posted by: zosimov

originally posted by: Akragon

originally posted by: zosimov

originally posted by: Akragon
No... but unlike some people, and many, IF not most Christians...

I know scripture



So who do you propose fulfilled that particular prophesy?



it wasn't a prophecy...

read the chapter instead of taking one verse out of context



Then why the future tense?


read.... the... Chapter



Done. And the prophesy is for the House of David. It says not when.. so when did the virgin (sorry maiden) conceive?


Well... they're still waiting are they not?

I get it... Im sure you've been drilled with this stuff most of your life...

Jesus wasn't the person they were, and are waiting for... its just a fact




If he Doesnt match the initial prophecy, then...



posted on Sep, 12 2016 @ 06:24 AM
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originally posted by: mazzroth

originally posted by: AgarthaSeed
a reply to: JoshuaCox

The Christian world will always support and defend Judaism for political reasons. Scripture has nothing to do with it at a certain point.

So why? Because so much of the western world's governments will bend over backwards for Israel. Simple as that.

Naivety is a sweet thing to suffer but the reason Governments bend over to appease the Israeli Government is because of its ruthlessness. They have very long memories and will over react 1000% to get their point across and this includes assassinations and murder.



Let's be real the reason they back Isreal is to keep the Arab nations from cutting off the oil flow, and evangelicals are super easy to BS. Just pretend you love Jesus more than anyone...



posted on Sep, 12 2016 @ 06:28 AM
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originally posted by: zosimov

originally posted by: Akragon

originally posted by: zosimov

originally posted by: Akragon

originally posted by: zosimov

originally posted by: Akragon
No... but unlike some people, and many, IF not most Christians...

I know scripture



Ad hominem but no substance..?




Why assume i was speaking of You...

thats called a blanket statement, and for the most part its true... and so were my previous statements



For the most part, perhaps, but not that part about the Messiah.


no that was also correct...

and as i said in my first post... the OP is looking for jewish scripture, not the Christian interpretation of it...

why do i have to keep repeating myself here



but they're the same scripture.. it's the same book!




No it isn't..

Christianity has been changed and translated dozens of times.

The Hebrew Torah hasn't changed much. Hell, you still have to learn it in Hebrew lol.

Historically Christianity is on far shakier ground... And maybe why Christians play off the Jewish name for credibility.



posted on Sep, 12 2016 @ 08:27 AM
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originally posted by: JoshuaCox

originally posted by: zosimov

originally posted by: Akragon

originally posted by: zosimov

originally posted by: Akragon

originally posted by: zosimov

originally posted by: Akragon
No... but unlike some people, and many, IF not most Christians...

I know scripture





Ad hominem but no substance..?




Why assume i was speaking of You...

thats called a blanket statement, and for the most part its true... and so were my previous statements



For the most part, perhaps, but not that part about the Messiah.


no that was also correct...

and as i said in my first post... the OP is looking for jewish scripture, not the Christian interpretation of it...

why do i have to keep repeating myself here



but they're the same scripture.. it's the same book!




No it isn't..

Christianity has been changed and translated dozens of times.

The Hebrew Torah hasn't changed much. Hell, you still have to learn it in Hebrew lol.

Historically Christianity is on far shakier ground... And maybe why Christians play off the Jewish name for credibility.


I'm sorry.. did you get this in your Western Civ class?
You don't think there are ancient scrolls available for scholars to verify?

This thread is not a good use of time, honestly. Who here is gonna learn anything?
edit on 12-9-2016 by zosimov because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 12 2016 @ 08:35 AM
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a reply to: zosimov



Who here is gonna learn anything?


Hopefully, someone might learn that the Jesus myth, as presented by classic Christianity, was not prophesied by Old Testament prophets.

It, the Jesus myth, is something else entirely.



posted on Sep, 12 2016 @ 08:39 AM
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originally posted by: zosimov

originally posted by: JoshuaCox

originally posted by: zosimov

originally posted by: Akragon

originally posted by: zosimov

originally posted by: Akragon

originally posted by: zosimov

originally posted by: Akragon
No... but unlike some people, and many, IF not most Christians...

I know scripture





Ad hominem but no substance..?




Why assume i was speaking of You...

thats called a blanket statement, and for the most part its true... and so were my previous statements



For the most part, perhaps, but not that part about the Messiah.


no that was also correct...

and as i said in my first post... the OP is looking for jewish scripture, not the Christian interpretation of it...

why do i have to keep repeating myself here



but they're the same scripture.. it's the same book!




No it isn't..

Christianity has been changed and translated dozens of times.

The Hebrew Torah hasn't changed much. Hell, you still have to learn it in Hebrew lol.

Historically Christianity is on far shakier ground... And maybe why Christians play off the Jewish name for credibility.


I'm sorry.. did you get this in your Western Civ class?
You don't think there are ancient scrolls available for scholars to verify?

This thread is not a good use of time, honestly. Who here is gonna learn anything?



I think that the earliest scrolls are copies of copies and still don't match and early christianity looks nothing like modern Christianity.

The rapture was supposed to be everyone being ressurected in the flesh. Like a bunch of zombies but without the decay. Today it is thought of as half the population going to heaven.


Hell as a concept is only like 800 years old, with all early references being about a physical place per say. Not another diminsion.

There was a big debate in early Christianity on exactly how divine Jesus was, with the conspiracy side thinking it was changed to trump the previous profits.

Every generation of Christians have thought they were in the end times, even the very first.


Christianity has not been super consistent. I'm not as familiar with Judaism, but if I'm right the Torah hasn't been changed much if at all since Jesus.



posted on Sep, 12 2016 @ 08:42 AM
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originally posted by: windword
a reply to: zosimov



Who here is gonna learn anything?


Hopefully, someone might learn that the Jesus myth, as presented by classic Christianity, was not prophesied by Old Testament prophets.

It, the Jesus myth, is something else entirely.



Though not definative, I would say it definately is a check on the negative list.



posted on Sep, 12 2016 @ 08:44 AM
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a reply to: Windword

The Torah was preserved orally for how long?
edit on 12-9-2016 by zosimov because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 12 2016 @ 09:06 AM
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originally posted by: zosimov
a reply to: Windword

The Torah was preserved orally for how long?




Fair enough..

I'm just saying we have earlier copies of the Torah for comparison.

That doesn't mean that Jesus wasn't right and the Jews haven't gotten it wrong. Hypothecally Jesus was the most recent source and would have been correcting the record.

That's why I'm saying it doesn't discredit Christianity, it just is.



posted on Sep, 12 2016 @ 09:18 AM
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a reply to: zosimov

HAHA.....Well, off the top of my head, based on all the warring Hebrew tribes, accusing each other of idol worship, I'd say that any "oral tradition" defaulted to the victors.

At any rate, according the "Torah", it was written, and when it was finished, the written word was preserved within the Ark of the Covenant....

Deuteronomy 31:24-26
24 And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished,

25 That Moses commanded the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the Lord, saying,

26 Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.



posted on Sep, 12 2016 @ 10:52 AM
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originally posted by: windword
a reply to: zosimov

HAHA.....Well, off the top of my head, based on all the warring Hebrew tribes, accusing each other of idol worship, I'd say that any "oral tradition" defaulted to the victors.

At any rate, according the "Torah", it was written, and when it was finished, the written word was preserved within the Ark of the Covenant....

Deuteronomy 31:24-26
24 And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished,

25 That Moses commanded the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the Lord, saying,

26 Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.




I THINK that's was just the 10 commandments , because that story is included in the Torah.



posted on Sep, 12 2016 @ 10:58 AM
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a reply to: windword


according the "Torah", it was written, and when it was finished, the written word was preserved within the Ark of the Covenant....

Last Thursdayism would say that it was written Last Thursday.
Normal archeologists suggest:

Israel Finkelstein, describes David as ruling the Jerusalem area when it was still sparsely populated. Finkelstein writes of "bandits and rebels" having been attracted to marginal mountainous environments. David, he suggests, may have been a bandit rebel, dominating towns while in the protection racket as was Hammurabi and as a bandit rebels often were.

In another book, David and Solomon,Finkelstein writes:

The evidence clearly suggests that tenth-century Jerusalem was a small highland village that controlled a sparsely settled hinterland. note1

The population remained low and the villages modest and few in number throughout the tenth century BCE. note2

Finkelstein contends that here there is no clear archaeological evidence for Jerusalem's emergence at that time as the capital of a powerful empire with elaborate administrative institutions and a scribal tradition capable of composing such an elaborate chronicle of events.
How Great was the Empire of David and Solomon?

The true believers in David state what the stakes are.

He has persisted for three millennia—an omnipresence in art, folklore, churches, and census rolls. To Muslims, he is Daoud, the venerated emperor and servant of Allah. To Christians, he is the natural and spiritual ancestor of Jesus, who thereby inherits David's messianic mantle. To the Jews, he is the father of Israel—the shepherd king anointed by God—and they in turn are his descendants and God's Chosen People. That he might be something lesser, or a myth altogether, is to many unthinkable.

"Our claim to being one of the senior nations in the world, to being a real player in civilization's realm of ideas, is that we wrote this book of books, the Bible," says Daniel Polisar, president of the Shalem Center, the Israeli research institute that helped fund Eilat Mazar's excavation work. "You take David and his kingdom out of the book, and you have a different book. The narrative is no longer a historical work, but a work of fiction. And then the rest of the Bible is just a propagandistic effort to create something that never was. And if you can't find the evidence for it, then it probably didn't happen. That's why the stakes are so high."
Kings of Controversy: Was the Kingdom of David and Solomon a glorious empire—or just a little cow town? It depends on which archaeologist you ask

Pretty much every claim made by Abrahamic religions hangs on "the Great David". If David was merely a brigand running a protection racket, then what would that make any nation founded upon him be?
What would that make Son of David, Messiah?
And what about the Qur'an compiled by Uthman, the third caliph (reign 644 to 656);

"And Allah gave him the kingdom! and wisdom and taught him of that which He willed." (2: 251).

"(And it was said unto him) 0' Dawud!To! We have set you as a vicegerent in the earth, therefore, judge aright between mankind and follow not desire." (38:26)



posted on Sep, 12 2016 @ 11:24 AM
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a reply to: JoshuaCox




I THINK that's was just the 10 commandments , because that story is included in the Torah.


It would include the creation account and the lives and times of Adam and Eve and their generations, Noah and the Flood, the Tower of Babel, the life and times of Abraham, the covenant of circumcision, Sodom and Gomorrah, Joseph, his Coat of Many Colors and his treasonous brothers, their trek to Egypt, and finally, their being "called out of Egypt" as The Lord's People.....and The Ten Commandments too, probably.



posted on Sep, 12 2016 @ 11:33 AM
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a reply to: pthena




In another book, David and Solomon,Finkelstein writes:


I don't know about Finkelstein, I take my cues on David and Solomon from Joseph Heller, and his book God Knows, because obviously he's actually channeling David! LOL


Joseph Heller's powerful, wonderfully funny, deeply moving novel is the story of David -- yes, King David -- but as you've never seen him before. You already know David as the legendary warrior king of Israel, husband of Bathsheba, and father of Solomon; now meet David as he really was: the cocky Jewish kid, the plagiarized poet, and the Jewish father. Listen as David tells his own story, a story both relentlessly ancient and surprisingly modern, about growing up and growing old, about men and women, and about man and God. It is quintessential Heller.


Best unofficial explanation on David and Solomon around! Have you read it?


edit on 12-9-2016 by windword because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 12 2016 @ 12:20 PM
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a reply to: windword


Best unofficial explanation on David and Solomon around! Have you read it?

Uh Oh! I may just be exposed as an illiterate heathen after all. I don't even remember if I read Catch 22 ever. I remember seeing a movie once. And, I saw lots of McHale's Navy episodes.

I don't suppose that having read all the Harry Kemelman's Rabbi Small series can make up for my deficit. No. Doesn't work that way, I suppose.



posted on Sep, 12 2016 @ 12:51 PM
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originally posted by: mazzroth

originally posted by: AgarthaSeed
a reply to: JoshuaCox

The Christian world will always support and defend Judaism for political reasons. Scripture has nothing to do with it at a certain point.

So why? Because so much of the western world's governments will bend over backwards for Israel. Simple as that.

Naivety is a sweet thing to suffer but the reason Governments bend over to appease the Israeli Government is because of its ruthlessness. They have very long memories and will over react 1000% to get their point across and this includes assassinations and murder.


I agree to an extent, but I think you're missing something important here.
First , try not to look at Israel, the U.S., Great Britain and other prominent European entities as "sovereign nations."
These are different lands under the same corporate networks, all essentially controlled by the same hands. Israel just happens to be the boss.

This is not anti-Semitic because families like the Rothschilds are not genetically Semitic, but rather converts.
And the flag of Israel is based on the original 6 pointed red star of the Rothschild family shield.
Rothschild is literally German for "red sign" or "red shield".

So just do the math. If Israel is comparable to the corporate headquarters of shadow government, Christian institutions have to bow down to them. Because they also own the Vatican.

Deny ignorance.



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