U.S. Spy Plane Records China's Artificial Islands, China Threatens Response

a reply to: jude11

I always find it amazing it always revolves around the US. Other Pacific nations share the same view as the US and those nations are also challenging China on the issues - diplomatically, economically and militarily.

The Us is not the sole nation on this planet and they are not responsible for everything that occurs on this planet. in this case China's actions created the problem.

originally posted by: Xcathdra

originally posted by: crazyewok
But he has a point

Why should China obey the USA when the USA plays fast a loose with the rules?

This is not about China obeying the US but the UN, to which China is a member. The US is asserting freedom of navigation, both on water and in the air, as is lawful to do under international law. China is attempting to claim areas as sovereign Chinese territory when in fact it is not. Secondly this involves more than just the US and China.

There is a difference.

If China wants to continue down this road then the US should re-recognize Taiwan as an independent nation and push to have them restored to the UNSC.

Then let the UN deal with it.

US should not be poking them like a kid poking a hornets nest with a stick.

US does not exactly have moral high ground in the world at the moment to be dictating to others. Nor does my own country. Least I can admit we have screwed up with our foreign policy, badly.

For the time being we should go along with the UN and what they decide to do at the moment and not stir up more trouble than needed.

a reply to: pez1975

I agree with that.

But the two states are really important ones economically speaking. Water is a global issue. As it becomes tighter globally more laws will be put in place that allow the oligarchs to buy mineral rights to sell water. Its already happening in Texas. Even TBoone is in on it.

We just simply can't sustain capitalism this way much longer. The alternative to china is automation. However that takes up jobs then the question is what do we do with a formally working population that is automated out of a job?

a reply to: crazyewok

The UN is handling it via the UN Charter.

The US, like China, is free to transit in international waters and air space. Chinese sovereignty claims are invalid and as such the US has a right to freedom of navigation, per the UN.

The US is not dictating - China is.

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: jude11

I always find it amazing it always revolves around the US. Other Pacific nations share the same view as the US and those nations are also challenging China on the issues - diplomatically, economically and militarily.

The Us is not the sole nation on this planet and they are not responsible for everything that occurs on this planet. in this case China's actions created the problem.

Well the op mentions the US and the USA has like almost every other country done some pretty #ty things as part of its foreign policy. And has a record of ignoring sovereignty and going off half cocked like a aggressive attack dog.

So dont be surprised if its put under heavy scrutiny.

China is likely in the wrong, in fact it probably is. But let the thing go through the UN and the other pacific nations first.

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: crazyewok

The UN is handling it via the UN Charter.

The US, like China, is free to transit in international waters and air space. Chinese sovereignty claims are invalid and as such the US has a right to freedom of navigation, per the UN.

The US is not dictating - China is.

Long as it officially goes through the UN good.

What I dont want is the USA going bomb crazy and ignoring the UN like Iraq.

Military action should wait, until it goes through the proper channels.

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: jude11

I always find it amazing it always revolves around the US. Other Pacific nations share the same view as the US and those nations are also challenging China on the issues - diplomatically, economically and militarily.

The Us is not the sole nation on this planet and they are not responsible for everything that occurs on this planet. in this case China's actions created the problem.

You are sort of right. China isn't acting irrationally though. They are doing what is logical and most super powers have done the same. We have bases globally all over. A lot of countries share China's view of the us as well.

Not to mention these small nations in the pacific you are talking about don't have a chance. Not even Australia or New Zealand of withstanding the economic impact of alienating china.
Its a dangerous time before the solution to the global problems. Its a catch 22. We don't want china to expand but if they don't it hurts everyone else as well. That's why we are trying to control the speed at which they are expanding by controlling energy distribution.

That's what this is about. China getting there own supply. That's why the big oil deals with Russia. They have played their cards pretty well.

a reply to: luthier

If they do like u said and the only alternative would be automation it would add jobs in the us imo cause all the factorys are in china now companys would retool build new factory's here and repatriate the jobs we sent there would add jobs here it would not be a loss imo cause they would be new jobs here even if the work force is reduced from what was in china by 10 fold.

a reply to: crazyewok

I dont think we are so much worried about america going bomb crazy as we are china with this situation

originally posted by: pez1975
a reply to: luthier

If they do like u said and the only alternative would be automation it would add jobs in the us imo cause all the factorys are in china now companys would retool build new factory's here and repatriate the jobs we sent there would add jobs here it would not be a loss imo cause they would be new jobs here even if the work force is reduced from what was in china by 10 fold.

Ahh but....
Who would make the parts? How much would they cost? While we build the automation yes we would have jobs. Once in place the jobs would be gone. It would be temporary. Once the machines can make other machines though its all over for the traditional work force.

a reply to: Xcathdra

Chinese sovereignty claims are invalid

This is an open dispute. And this dispute the US is trying to dictate, though it doesn't have a stake in the dispute.

China, the Republic of China, and the People's Republic of China[edit]

Map of the South China Sea Islands, by Ministry of the Interior, ROC, 1947.
The People's Republic of China (PRC) claims all of the Spratly Islands as part of China, and has had a long naval presence in the territories.

The Republic of China (ROC), which ruled mainland China before 1949 and has been confined to Taiwan since 1949, also claims all of the Spratly Islands.

Basis for PRC's and ROC's claims
China claims to have discovered the islands in the Han Dynasty in 2 BC. The islands were claimed to have been marked on maps compiled during the time of Eastern Han dynasty and Eastern Wu (one of the Three Kingdoms). Since the Yuan dynasty in the 12th century, several islands that may be the Spratlys have been labelled as Chinese territory,[60] followed by the Ming Dynasty[61] and the Qing dynasty from the 13th to 19th Century.[62] In 1755,[62][63] archaeological surveys the remains of Chinese pottery and coins have been found in the islands and are cited as proof for the PRC claim, but they are more likely to have come from shipwrecks of passing Chinese junks.[64]

Chinese fishermen have fished around the islands since 200 BC.[34]

In the 19th century, Europeans found that Chinese fishermen from Hainan annually sojourned on the Spratly islands for part of the year, while in 1877 it was the British who launched the first modern legal claims to the Spratlys.[32][33]

When the Spratlys and Paracels were being surveyed by Germany in 1883, China issued protests against them. The 1887 Chinese-Vietnamese Boundary convention signed between France and China after the Sino-French War said that China was the owner of the Spratly and Paracel islands.[34] China sent naval forces on inspection tours in 1902 and 1907 and placed flags and markers on the islands. The Qing dynasty's successor state, the Republic of China, claimed the Spratly and Paracel islands under the jurisdiction of Hainan.[35]

The Spratlys and the Paracels were conquered by Japan in 1939. Japan administered the Spratlys via Taiwan's jurisdiction and the Paracels via Hainan's jurisdiction.[32] The Paracels and Spratlys were handed over to Republic of China control from Japan after the 1945 surrender of Japan,[36] since the Allied powers assigned the Republic of China to receive Japanese surrenders in that area.[35]

After WW2 ended, the Republic of China was the "most active claimaint". The Republic of China then garrisoned Itu Aba (Taiping) island in 1946 and posted Chinese flags and markers on it along with Woody island in the Paracels, France tried, but failed to make them leave Woody island.[32] The aim of the Republic of China was to block the French claims.[35][37] The Republic of China drew up the map showing the U shaped claim on the entire South China Sea, showing the Spratly and Paracels in Chinese territory, in 1947.[35]

Taiwan's garrison from 1946–1950 and 1956-now on Itu Aba represents an "effective occuption" of the Spratlys.[39][40]

from wikipedia en.wikipedia.org...

a reply to: luthier

they build the automation and will still need people to run the machines keep them running management and all the other stuff that comes along with it trucking jobs to move the stuff rail jobs also tax revenues collected and energy use that will all create jobs its alot of the jobs u dont see that would come with this route and they would all be high paying jobs just less of them but we have zero jobs now so any repatriation would be a net plus.

originally posted by: pez1975
a reply to: luthier

they build the automartion and will still need people to run the machines keep them running managment and all the other stuff that comes along with it trucking jobs to move the stuff rail jobs also tax revenues collected and engery use that will create jobs its alot of the jobs u dont see that would come with this route and they would all be high paying jobs just less of them but we have zero jobs now so and repatriation would be a net plus

I do see the whole situation. There are many many economists and scientists talking about this very thing. Obviously it makes less jobs. The maintenance and programming are minute compared to machine operators.

The whole purpose of automation is to replace a person you are paying.

a reply to: luthier

i dont understand ur argument sorry

look at it like this a company a us company has there plants in china due to low wages that mean zero jobs in the US they automate move the companys production home but instead of 100 employees in china it takes 10 here thats still 10 jobs we have here now and all the other benefits that come with it

a reply to: pez1975

We are about to be scolded by x for derailment (at least I am since I don't share his views).

The problem is not only manufacturing will be automated. Also medical (AI already happening) accounting, every facet of the economy farming etc. The jobs already with human being in the us will also be automated and programmed.

Here is an article that explains what could or could not happen depending on the way we structure things. Its an MIT economist (not just an editorial)
www.techrepublic.com...

a reply to: luthier

i dont think this is a derailment at all all this pertains to why china wants those islands they need them for expansion and the US does not want them to expand or the other countrys in the region all the other issues discussed are relevant to why this south china sea thing is happening

a reply to: dragonridr

If the Chinese position Aircraft and Naval vessels in this area it gives them a strategic advantage and access to the Straits of Malacca, one of the busiest shipping areas in the world.

This is worrisome indeed.

As for handling the spy aircraft...there is no correct protocol to deal with them, really. Not really sure why it would be a big deal. Espionage has been around for thousands of years, and likely will still remain. The Chinese just need to learn how to fight it with counter-espionage and counter spy plane measures.

originally posted by: pez1975
a reply to: luthier

i dont think this is a derailment at all all this pertains to why china wants those islands they need them for expansion and the US does not want them to expand or the other countrys in the region all the other issues discussed are relevant to why this south china sea thing is happening

I agree

a reply to: dragonridr

Why do they need to build Islands. People are &#&#&! Starving and China is building islands.

We have 40 billion acres of land for 7 billion people. We could all stand 4 acres apart and all be on dry land. We don't need islands, we need food, clean water, proper sanitation, and homes for the homeless.

The rulers in the world spend the world's wealth in some of the stupidest ways imaginable. Shouldn't we feed the world before spending a trillion more dollars on $_#&÷. Islands, particle coliders, trips to mars.

We say look how intelligent and evolved we are.

If their are aliens they are scratching thier head. Wondering why do they love science and money more than they love each other.

I am all for particle coliders, islands and trips to Mars. AFTER WE FEED THE WORLD!!!!

And this is what is worth going to war for. Wake me I am trapped in a horrible episode of the twilight zone.

originally posted by: crazyewok

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: jude11

I always find it amazing it always revolves around the US. Other Pacific nations share the same view as the US and those nations are also challenging China on the issues - diplomatically, economically and militarily.

The Us is not the sole nation on this planet and they are not responsible for everything that occurs on this planet. in this case China's actions created the problem.

Well the op mentions the US and the USA has like almost every other country done some pretty #ty things as part of its foreign policy. And has a record of ignoring sovereignty and going off half cocked like a aggressive attack dog.

So dont be surprised if its put under heavy scrutiny.

China is likely in the wrong, in fact it probably is. But let the thing go through the UN and the other pacific nations first.

The how evil the US is defence is old an worn out. As a country they have a right to protect there intrests and the intrests of allies on asia. This is an important area for navigation by many nations therefore important to maintain it. China trying to claim large portions of it as there's isn't going to go over well. There is already legal proceedings if China thought they had any validity to their claims they would handle it in court. Obviously they are not so this tells us there legal claims is dubius.

Now I will say the reason that plane was there is someone is compiling a report for the UN. When they went to get a detailed look like that they are looking for chinas Navy not the island could see that from satellites.