U.S. Spy Plane Records China's Artificial Islands, China Threatens Response

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: KnightLight

now only if this were about trading and not about China building islands and trying to claim them, and the 12 miles for national boundaries, and 200 miles for an EEZ, as sovereign territory when in fact they aren't.

I agree with you. This is an issue to deal with. China is wrong.


I just mean in general.

ah just send in the christian amerikan gunboats and move in
like the US did with hawaii

originally posted by: Danbones
ah just send in the christian amerikan gunboats and move in
like the US did with hawaii

What does Hawaii have to do with China?

Are you guys really that incapable of remaining on topic?

a reply to: KnightLight

There in lies the key - it needs to be dealt with in terms of communication with all parties involved.

All sides did try communication up until China pushed its claims in the manner they did. The Philippines attempted to resolve the issues with China to no avail. They then took the issue to the UN, which pissed China off to the extent of them refusing to comply with the court proceedings.

That action telegraphs China's position. It will negotiate so long as its on their terms and China gets what it wants out of it.

Question -
If Chinese claims were as solid as china claims, then why ignore a court procedure that could settle the issue in China's favor?

originally posted by: crazyewok
But he has a point

Why should China obey the USA when the USA plays fast a loose with the rules?

This is not about China obeying the US but the UN, to which China is a member. The US is asserting freedom of navigation, both on water and in the air, as is lawful to do under international law. China is attempting to claim areas as sovereign Chinese territory when in fact it is not. Secondly this involves more than just the US and China.

There is a difference.

If China wants to continue down this road then the US should re-recognize Taiwan as an independent nation and push to have them restored to the UNSC.

I think this is becoming a huge mess china sounds like a little kid that took another kids ball "Its mine now I dont wanna give it back NO NO NO NO!!!'' or should i say ''GO GO GO GO'' lol china is gonna ruin there economy over this IMO America maketh and american taketh away they just havent been in a position like this before and dont understand the game IMO.

a reply to: pez1975

To be honest with the state of the Chinese economy, and the direction its heading, this looks more like a page out of Russia's play book. Create an external threat to shift the peoples focus from unsatisfactory conditions on the home front and refocus them on an outside issue.

Chinas economy is starting to have major issues.

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: ufoorbhunter

The Chinese don't mind using the laws when it suits them.

True. I suppose a clash of the titans is going to happen one of these days to decide which one will make the "laws"

what if america played the same childish game with china and said well ur a poopie head we dont like what ur doing in the south china sea and were now defaulting and not gonna pay the 1.2 trillion in debit we owe cause ur being mean and not giving us our way meanies

a reply to: ufoorbhunter

Who knows..

The laws in question are under the United Nations and China signed off on them.

First is the EEZ - Exclusive Economic zone, which falls under United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea.

There is no room for interpretation in that area.

UN Charter - Chapter VI
The second area, sovereignty, also falls under the UN, specifically the UN Charter, Chapter 2 (dealing with memberships) and chapter 6 (dealing specifically with Pacific disputes). Under chapter 6 any pacific nation can bring issues concerning disputes to the appropriate UN body. The Philippines did this and China is refusing to abide by it, even though they agreed to and signed off on it.

Based on the above the Chinese are in the wrong. Just as anyone else can argue about the US and some actions it has taken.

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: pez1975

To be honest with the state of the Chinese economy, and the direction its heading, this looks more like a page out of Russia's play book. Create an external threat to shift the peoples focus from unsatisfactory conditions on the home front and refocus them on an outside issue.

Chinas economy is starting to have major issues.

Really? Like what? I was just in shanghai. Looks like buildings still going up everywhere. Obviously growth is not infinite but the whole world economies are having serious problems. If you don't understand the tie the entire world has to each others economies you are just an ethnocentric idealist.

China is now the superpower. Another 5 to 10 years they will have a comparable military.

The whole problem is nobodies economy is good. We are all in the process of evolving to the next system. There is no way to combat climate change and ration a finite amount of resources without either going into space for mining (impractical) or slowing down and changing consumption habits and the structure of the economy. Obviously every modern nation is well aware of where the resources are and how much is roughly left. Its pretty easy to model the size of the population and its growth both economically (using up resources through consumption and growth) and when then resources will become scarce.

That's what these and almost every war and skirmish is about. If we don't change the global economy and our consumption habits, as well as technology taking away jobs, we are heading for a major war over the remaining scraps. Once India and china fully get online with growth and consumption this will happen pretty fast.

originally posted by: Nowornevertill

originally posted by: dragonridr
I think what shocked me the most is just the lack of professionalism.

Why should China show professionalism and respect towards USA.

I am not Chinese

I am white guy never been to Asia and i don't show US respect of any kind.

They did create ISIS, wars world wide and did 9/11.

People like that don't deserve respect.

No, the Saudis created ISIS.

what the hell does who created isis have to do with this thread people keep on topic and stop ruining it with silliness

a reply to: luthier

Except China has to have a certain level of economic growth in order to accomplish its stated goals in addition to keeping their population employed to the extent that it doesn't create an imbalance with government operations. Chinas economic growth has slowed so much that their economy is no longer growing in the double digit numbers, numbers it needs to maintain stability.

A slow economy leads to civil unrest in China, which is dangerous to the status quo of the Chinese government. As an example in the early 1990's China had almost 9k incidents of domestic unrest. By 2009 that number increased to 90k.

The stability of the Chinese government rests with their economy. just because you see signs of economic life in one Chinese city does not mean the entire Chinese economy is in the same boat.

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: luthier

Except China has to have a certain level of economic growth in order to accomplish its stated goals in addition to keeping their population employed to the extent that it doesn't create an imbalance with government operations. Chinas economic growth has slowed so much that their economy is no longer growing in the double digit numbers, numbers it needs to maintain stability.

A slow economy leads to civil unrest in China, which is dangerous to the status quo of the Chinese government. As an example in the early 1990's China had almost 9k incidents of domestic unrest. By 2009 that number increased to 90k.

The stability of the Chinese government rests with their economy.

As does the stability of the us economy. We are completely interconnected. They produce everything for us. It would be a much worse disaster here where we are already used to comfort.

The other thing people forget is china doesn't care about their people. They will simply execute the people rising up. Publically.

Also china has plenty of money to continue projects for the next decade. You are being a sensationalist. There is no respected eco omist in the world that agrees with you.

originally posted by: pez1975
what the hell does who created isis have to do with this thread people keep on topic and stop ruining it with silliness

I was just responding to someone who blamed the US for all evils, correcting them on the ISIS creation claim. Glad to see you are official moderator of this thread.

a reply to: Xcathdra

I agree chinas economy is worse shape than people realize and it could collapse with this kinda ignorance over a sand box in the sea there trying to dominate the shipping lane for the expansion they want and its not in the interest of the countrys in the area and they have big friends ie america that will not and do not want this expansion to happenen

a reply to: UnBreakable

i wasnt refering to ur post i think it was right on the money i was refering to why it was brought up in the first place has nothing to do what with we are talking about here and is silly to even bring up here.

originally posted by: luthier

As does the stability of the us economy. We are completely interconnected. They produce everything for us. It would be a much worse disaster here where we are already used to comfort.

Since the US imports more from China than we sell to them because of how cheap it is does not place the US in the same boat of economic survival based on trading partners. The US has the ability to make up for the loss of Chinese factories. China on the other hand cannot cope with the loss of a large market like the US. So while we are interconnected, China is more reliant on the US than the US is on them.

We could survive the loss. The Chinese government would not survive the loss.

Has it never occurred to you why China was building ghost cities? It is not to deal with their population. It was done to keep their people employed, which in turn artificially supported other sectors of their economy, namely construction and everything attached to it.

Remember we are talking about economic issues in terms of government stability.

originally posted by: luthierThe other thing people forget is china doesn't care about their people. They will simply execute the people rising up. Publically.

Which is what my argument is based on. The more the Chinese government abuses their people coupled with economic issues the harder it is for the Chinese government to keep control. The Chinese government has been forced to arm some of their police forces in areas that are seeing an increase in public uprisings.

The whole purpose for the Chinese President to crack down on government corruption was based on public perception of the government.

originally posted by: luthier
Also china has plenty of money to continue projects for the next decade. You are being a sensationalist. There is no respected eco omist in the world that agrees with you.

Actually no they don't. The Chinese have been caught under reporting their debt in addition to completely leaving out their municipal debt from international reporting. Chinese government debt has surpassed their GDP and by some accounts they have passed it by almost 250%.

So no im not being sensational and yes, there are a lot of economist that agree with me.

a reply to: luthier

I agree to a small extent what ur saying but dont think for a min american cant change who they use for slave labor in the area with Taiwan Vietnam and many others in the area that would gladly take on the role of Americas slave labor force.