Debunking Abduction Debunkers

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: PlanetXisHERE
Here is info on the Roper Organization Poll that indicated 2% of the population had had abductee experiences:

...

Pre-testing the indicators had assured Bigelow and his team that they could discriminate between true victims of alien abduction and non-abductees with over-active imaginations. Positive responses to specific questions would definitely indicate an abduction had occurred. The test also had built-in questions to detect fraud. For example, a positive response to "Do you remember seeing or hearing the word TRONDANT (a word Bigelow had made up) and knowing it has a special significance to you?" would automatically eliminate the subject from consideration, regardless of other indicators.

Roper's representative American sample of about 6000 adults (with a sampling error of 1.4 percent!) showed that one out of every 50 people met the profile of an abductee. This figure suggests that about 33,000,000 individuals had been abducted in America. A closer look at these specific profiles showed that these people were not "average" at all.

Link

The study in no way proved that 2% of the population were abducted. It is ludicrous for Bigelow and his team to claim that they could distinguish between those actually abducted and non-abductees because there is zero evidence that ETs exist or have abducted anyone.

Would you like to address what you feel are weaknesses in the poll or its methodology, or are you just going to hang your hat on that old logical fallacy called circular reasoning, in this case being that abductions can't be happening because non-human intelligence does not exist in this part of the galaxy? Have you personally toured this part of the galaxy?

originally posted by: PlanetXisHERE

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: PlanetXisHERE
Here is info on the Roper Organization Poll that indicated 2% of the population had had abductee experiences:

...

Pre-testing the indicators had assured Bigelow and his team that they could discriminate between true victims of alien abduction and non-abductees with over-active imaginations. Positive responses to specific questions would definitely indicate an abduction had occurred. The test also had built-in questions to detect fraud. For example, a positive response to "Do you remember seeing or hearing the word TRONDANT (a word Bigelow had made up) and knowing it has a special significance to you?" would automatically eliminate the subject from consideration, regardless of other indicators.

Roper's representative American sample of about 6000 adults (with a sampling error of 1.4 percent!) showed that one out of every 50 people met the profile of an abductee. This figure suggests that about 33,000,000 individuals had been abducted in America. A closer look at these specific profiles showed that these people were not "average" at all.

Link

The study in no way proved that 2% of the population were abducted. It is ludicrous for Bigelow and his team to claim that they could distinguish between those actually abducted and non-abductees because there is zero evidence that ETs exist or have abducted anyone.

Would you like to address what you feel are weaknesses in the poll or its methodology, or are you just going to hang your hat on that old logical fallacy called circular reasoning, in this case being that abductions can't be happening because non-human intelligence does not exist in this part of the galaxy? Have you personally toured this part of the galaxy?

Your logic is still broken.

originally posted by: PlanetXisHERE

originally posted by: Tangerine

originally posted by: PlanetXisHERE
Here is info on the Roper Organization Poll that indicated 2% of the population had had abductee experiences:

...

Pre-testing the indicators had assured Bigelow and his team that they could discriminate between true victims of alien abduction and non-abductees with over-active imaginations. Positive responses to specific questions would definitely indicate an abduction had occurred. The test also had built-in questions to detect fraud. For example, a positive response to "Do you remember seeing or hearing the word TRONDANT (a word Bigelow had made up) and knowing it has a special significance to you?" would automatically eliminate the subject from consideration, regardless of other indicators.

Roper's representative American sample of about 6000 adults (with a sampling error of 1.4 percent!) showed that one out of every 50 people met the profile of an abductee. This figure suggests that about 33,000,000 individuals had been abducted in America. A closer look at these specific profiles showed that these people were not "average" at all.

Link

The study in no way proved that 2% of the population were abducted. It is ludicrous for Bigelow and his team to claim that they could distinguish between those actually abducted and non-abductees because there is zero evidence that ETs exist or have abducted anyone.

Would you like to address what you feel are weaknesses in the poll or its methodology, or are you just going to hang your hat on that old logical fallacy called circular reasoning, in this case being that abductions can't be happening because non-human intelligence does not exist in this part of the galaxy? Have you personally toured this part of the galaxy?

Uh..I thought I did address the weakness: no testable evidence that ETs exist, have visited earth or abducted anyone. That precludes the possibility that the study showed that 2% of the population had been abducted.

Your tired old false claim that I said non-human intelligence doesn't exist in this part of the galaxy isn't going to fly. I didn't say it. Besides, dogs are intelligent and they exist in this part of the galaxy.

a reply to: PlanetXisHERE

ROPER ABDUCTION REPORT ON THE ROPES?
Controversial 1991 Poll on "Unusual Personal Experiences"
Proves Nothing at All, Critic Says

The interpretation, by Hopkins, Jacobs and Ron Westrum (HJ&W), of the survey's results is 100% hogwash.
----
The presumption behind their reading of the figures was that a person had possibly been abducted if he or she answered Yes to five key questions and No to a "lie detector" question.
Out of 5947 respondents, Roper found precisely 18 people who fulfilled this criterion. This represents 0.3% of the sample. It does not represent 0.3% of the US population or (using HJ&W's figures) 555,000 people. This is because the margin of error in the poll is plus or minus 1.4%. Any number below that might, statistically, just as well be zero. To find out if this number is representative, you would need to question at least five times as many people as Roper did, and probably many more to overcome a law of diminishing returns.

All the Roper research tells us is that in this particular sample there were 18 people who had had five experiences that, according to HJ&W, indicate they have been abducted. It is even possible, statistically, that they are the *only* 18 such people in the USA.

www.theanomalieschannel.com...

Given the world wide testimonies from countless people spanning generations, race, religions and social barriers and the many accounts from reliable, credible witnesses. Including law enforcement, military, professionals and educated people.

Having this overwhelming evidence you'd have to be trying to willfully deceive yourself into believing that there is nothing to this..

I'm not claiming little green men, greys, reptilian or insects.

Nor am i claiming an elaborate experiment being conducted by the PTB. I do find it inconceivable that they are all just a sad pathetic lot looking for their 15 minutes. Having seen how people are tr,eated that come forward with their experience. No one in their right mind would subject themselves to that humiliation willing unless they are telling the truth.

Now concerning the so called lack of physical evidence..There's been plenty. Scars, radiation burns, depressions at landing sites, implants, video and photographs. Because of the amount of hoaxes, these are dismissed as fakes also.

If these are visitors from space or interdimentional beings and our governments are powerless to stop them. Then a matter of covering there tracks should be no problem..

I have stumbled on that issue myself.. if these are happening as they're being told and our government can't stop them. Then why the secrecy? If they are that powerful then why hide. The only conclusion I can come up with is we would figure out what they are. There true nature and origin and already have been given the means to defend and possibly prevail against them.

I'm not ready to declare aliens exist, but I'm also not ready to dismiss the idea either.

I like the job debunkers do to a point. They expose the 97% of garbage that's out there.. Giving us the unexplained 3% to focus on.. Its when they allow self to get in their way and the trash talking begins when they loose me..

originally posted by: HooHaa
Given the world wide testimonies from countless people spanning generations, race, religions and social barriers and the many accounts from reliable, credible witnesses. Including law enforcement, military, professionals and educated people.

Having this overwhelming evidence you'd have to be trying to willfully deceive yourself into believing that there is nothing to this..

I'm not claiming little green men, greys, reptilian or insects.

Nor am i claiming an elaborate experiment being conducted by the PTB. I do find it inconceivable that they are all just a sad pathetic lot looking for their 15 minutes. Having seen how people are tr,eated that come forward with their experience. No one in their right mind would subject themselves to that humiliation willing unless they are telling the truth.

Now concerning the so called lack of physical evidence..There's been plenty. Scars, radiation burns, depressions at landing sites, implants, video and photographs. Because of the amount of hoaxes, these are dismissed as fakes also.

If these are visitors from space or interdimentional beings and our governments are powerless to stop them. Then a matter of covering there tracks should be no problem..

I have stumbled on that issue myself.. if these are happening as they're being told and our government can't stop them. Then why the secrecy? If they are that powerful then why hide. The only conclusion I can come up with is we would figure out what they are. There true nature and origin and already have been given the means to defend and possibly prevail against them.

I'm not ready to declare aliens exist, but I'm also not ready to dismiss the idea either.

I like the job debunkers do to a point. They expose the 97% of garbage that's out there.. Giving us the unexplained 3% to focus on.. Its when they allow self to get in their way and the trash talking begins when they loose me..

Your creative punctuation aside, claims are not testable evidence. Scars and radiation burns are evidence only of the existence of scars and radiation burns, not the cause of those injuries. Depressions in the ground are evidence of depressions in the ground and not evidence of extraterrestrial craft landing sites. Video and photographs are not evidence that the images are extraterrestrial craft. So-called implants are not evidence that extraterrestrials abducted people and placed those items in bodies. One could just as easily claim that faeries have caused the scars, radiation burns, depressions in the ground and "implants". Those things you see in the video and photographs could be faeries flitting about or shape-shifting. Note that I'm not claiming that that is the cause of these things, just that there's as much evidence supporting that theory as the extraterrestrial theory.

I don't dismiss the possibility that extraterrestrials exist or have visited earth but enough effort has been put into attempts to prove this hypothesis without the production of an iota of testable evidence that I think it's time to move on to exploring other hypotheses.

a reply to: ZetaRediculian

Thanks for that info. I appreciate you discussing the issue and info at hand, some posters are stuck on circular reasoning and I will not waste my time going in circles with them.

Five out of five of the key questions gave 0.3%, four out of five of the key questions gave a number of 2%.

HJ&W concluded that 119 people in the sample, representing 2% of the population or 3.7 million people in the continental USA, were abductee candidates.

I never said this poll proves anything, all I said was that it indicates the possibility this has happened.

No one yet has debunked the rest of Dr. Jacobs findings that I outlined in the OP without resorting to the "hypnosis" argument or ad hominem attacks against Dr. Jacobs.

I find it laughable that circumstantial evidence is accepted in all courts across the land, yet it means nothing to debunkers. Funny how that works.

Still waiting.

a reply to: PlanetXisHERE

No one yet has debunked the rest of Dr. Jacobs findings that I outlined in the OP without resorting to the "hypnosis" argument or ad hominem attacks against Dr. Jacobs.

the problem with jacobs for me, is that his methodology is so poor

he either doesn't understand the basic principles of the scientific method or he is wilfully ignoring them

either way his conclusions can't be taken seriously

I find it laughable that circumstantial evidence is accepted in all courts across the land, yet it means nothing to debunkers. Funny how that works.

perhaps dr jacobs should take the aliens to court then - i'm sure some of what they are allegedly doing is highly illegal

a reply to: PlanetXisHERE

I find it laughable that circumstantial evidence is accepted in all courts across the land, yet it means nothing to debunkers. Funny how that works.

The problem is the circumstantial evidence in this case has one source, David Jacobs. In the case with Emma Woods, her claims are backed up by audio recordings which leads me to believe that Jacobs is not a credible source.

If you are interested in a different view point, check out this thread by Jeff Ritzmann who I quoted earlier. www.abovetopsecret.com...

a reply to: PlanetXisHERE

I find it laughable that circumstantial evidence is accepted in all courts across the land, yet it means nothing to debunkers. Funny how that works.

Courts throughout the land also require that the evidence be "beyond a reasonable doubt." There is not a shred of evidence for "alien abductions" that can stand up to any reasonable standard. That said, the fact that similar experiences have been recounted over the ages with significant changes in detail suggests that there is some sort of "psychological" phenomenon at work. Neuroscientists have recently discovered how the feeling of a "ghostly presence" is created. Perhaps there is a similar process at work when it comes to "alien abduction" hallucinations.

Hi all,

I've just registered to ATS and this is my first post. I like to read good discussions and I just HAD to create an account so I can reply to this topic...

Well when it comes to the abduction thing, you know, there really doesn't have to be evidence. You don't have to believe something and you really shouldn't believe in it if all you have is some strange sounding stories.
I'd find it rather naive if you believed what I am about to say, just because I'm saying it. However, I'm an abductee, but that terminology is BS and even I find it extremely hard to believe, the whole abduction thing that is. It doesn't make any freaking sense when I think about it. I mean, I'm not a nut, I have a nice job that pays well, I watch south park and Game of Thrones with my girl, and I have a glider pilot license. I'm not a victim of some mental condition. That has been ruled out, by the way. It's not like you can take a blood sample and say "well that guy has schizophrenia", but at some point you and your psychiatrist will agree about that.

It's definitely a life-changing revelation, and it doesn't make any difference if I talk about it or not.

Oh also I'm not from the US but from Europe. Just saying, someone mentioned that it seems to be a US phenomenon

Then there are people who say that the whole thing is made up. Well, I'm pretty sure it's not made up. I didn't make it up, but I don't know about other people but naturally I don't think they're lying. I'm biased here but I think that is somewhat understandable.
A mental condition, like transformed early childhood memories? Well, I wouldn't have real scars from memories if that were the case.

One thing that aggravates me a bit is that some people always describe eye-witness accounts as "anecdotal evidence". It's not, as John Mack stated once. When someone sees a faint light in the sky and thinks it's an Alien space ship, that's anecdotal. If someone sees a highly strange flying craft with a clearly visible defined shape not too far away, that's not anecdotal evidence. He either lies about it, or he was hallucinating, or it really happened. the discussion about the origin of said object or intentions on the other hand, is pure speculation.

I think we can agree about scepticism. It's a good thing. Debunking is stupid though. I just read the thread about that recent ISS ufo and that was a great example for a good, productive brainstorming session. Turned out to be a salt lake, and it makes sense. Nothing strange there. But you just shouldn't say "there is a mundane explanation for everything, and one day we will find these mundane explanations with 100% certainty", that's not a valid approach. The debunker's mind is made up, it's just the same thing as a "true believer" who will believe, regardless of facts. It's the same damn thing.

PS I never had regression hypnosis.

originally posted by: Raufu

One thing that aggravates me a bit is that some people always describe eye-witness accounts as "anecdotal evidence". It's not, as John Mack stated once. When someone sees a faint light in the sky and thinks it's an Alien space ship, that's anecdotal. If someone sees a highly strange flying craft with a clearly visible defined shape not too far away, that's not anecdotal evidence.

Actually it is.

dictionary.reference.com...

One would expect someone who has spent decades making a career of analyzing personal testimony by those claiming to have been abducted to object to his work being labeled "anecdotal evidence".

But, by definition, it was.

PPS

What is hard evidence? What would you accept as definite proof that this is "real"?
Photos - uuh, nope. Too many gifted photoshop / digital artists out there.
Videos - No. Same reason.

A good story, backed up by burn marks, perhaps a photo, and multiple witnesses? Those already exist. Also, "too good to be true", "probably a prank" etc.

The only thing you can't have is a controlled environment where you can reproduce something in a lab.

originally posted by: Raufu
PPS

What is hard evidence? What would you accept as definite proof that this is "real"?
Photos - uuh, nope. Too many gifted photoshop / digital artists out there.
Videos - No. Same reason.

A good story, backed up by burn marks, perhaps a photo, and multiple witnesses? Those already exist. Also, "too good to be true", "probably a prank" etc.

The only thing you can't have is a controlled environment where you can reproduce something in a lab.

What I would personally accept is not what the general public would view as "definite proof".

To get beyond eyewitness testimony you would need such things as trace evidence, independently analyzed by multiple, reputable labs and the results peer reviewed within the scientific community [not pseudo].

Corroborating, unrelated eyewitness testimony always helps, but such testimony is usually contaminated before the report [story sharing, speculation etc.].

Photos and videos can still be useful... just requires a higher level of scrutiny than before the advent of CGI.

And a controlled environment is not out of the question, unless you are predisposed to the belief that the experiences are the result of "Alien intervention" and not psychological/neurological causes.

a reply to: Raufu

However, I'm an abductee, but that terminology is BS and even I find it extremely hard to believe, the whole abduction thing that is. It doesn't make any freaking sense when I think about it. I mean, I'm not a nut, I have a nice job that pays well, I watch south park and Game of Thrones with my girl, and I have a glider pilot license. I'm not a victim of some mental condition

People have these experiences which have nothing to do with mental illness. That is well established. They are probably more common than we know about. I also think that it probably is more than sleep paralysis that is misinterpreted although, I am certain that a large chunk of these cases are just that.

the "abduction" phenomenon does have its roots in the US and that is because the researchers that defined it as "alien abduction" are from the US. "Anomalous" experience is probably a more accurate term and which is no doubt global. "Abduction researchers" have just taken these experiences and molded it into the framework of their own beliefs. I am certain of that.

We would have had that a long time ago if there was any serious interest in the science community to investigate that, and if they got the actual evidence before it reportedly "disappears" somehow..
The scientists who take it seriously are lone wolves, and an interest in UFOs are really a death sentence for your career.

Anyway I don't see the point in trying to convince someone of something, the best evidence is primary evidence. You wouldn't say that the ash tray in front of you is an illusion if you can touch it. It's just there. Sure you can doubt its existence but that's not practical. You can see it, touch it, use it, end of the story. People who report the strangest things have experienced -something- (let's assume they are not liars, for illustrative reasons), and for them it is real, and this is really what counts for them, especially if you take the psychological approach. I mean at some point an individual has to take a leap of faith about whether something is real and therefore worth reacting to / interacting with. I choose to accept the existence of the B117 Stealth Bomber as a reality, but I have never seen one, or read multiple lab reports of debris items that somehow prove that this airplane exists. I accept it because "the authorities" tell us, it is "common knowledge" or "knowledge of something that enough people agree upon so that it becomes real".

Hey sure the 117 is real. But I have never seen more than a few photographs of it. Does this mean I am a believer?

The 117's pilot doesn't care. He sits down, powers that thing up and flies it and he doesn't give a damn if some people don't believe it exists. He just knows. Could he prove it? Probably not because civilian personnel would not be allowed to enter the hangar, so he can only tell other people that it's real. he couldn't even take photos of that thing :p

I find it very intriguing that almost all abductees, and people like Halt (bentwaters) still don't believe what they saw with their own eyes.

Does the ash tray exist? does the pope really exist? Do I exist? What is matter? how many dimensions are there?
blah. Let's get real here, what matters to people is what they experience with their senses. The abduction phenomenon has a massive emotional and philosophical impact on people who experience it, and at the same time they themselves think they're crazy. The problem is, doubting something you have experienced multiple times over and over again will lead nowhere. It's all about an emotional solution that enables one to cope with the experience and to combine its severe emotional / philosophical consequences with their daily lives, and for that you have to accept it.

That's really it. The "abduction phenomenon" is something that distorts your worldview in an unbearable way, and ultimately leads to spiritual growth, much more than anything else one can experience besides a near-death thing I suppose.
I think that's why Mack and Hopkins accepted it as reality, because it is, from sociologist / psychiatrist point of view.

PS It's not sleep paralysis. I've had that several times and although it's scary if you wake up and can't move at all, it's not even remotely similar to those other things. Not even close. If you say so you're disregarding / oversimplifying the whole thing..

originally posted by: PlanetXisHERE
a reply to: ZetaRediculian

Thanks for that info. I appreciate you discussing the issue and info at hand, some posters are stuck on circular reasoning and I will not waste my time going in circles with them.

Five out of five of the key questions gave 0.3%, four out of five of the key questions gave a number of 2%.

HJ&W concluded that 119 people in the sample, representing 2% of the population or 3.7 million people in the continental USA, were abductee candidates.

I never said this poll proves anything, all I said was that it indicates the possibility this has happened.

No one yet has debunked the rest of Dr. Jacobs findings that I outlined in the OP without resorting to the "hypnosis" argument or ad hominem attacks against Dr. Jacobs.

I find it laughable that circumstantial evidence is accepted in all courts across the land, yet it means nothing to debunkers. Funny how that works.

Still waiting.

Courts do not operate on the scientific method. I'm surprised that you don't know that. Fact is the purview of science. If you want to claim that extraterrestrials exist, you'll have to produce testable evidence. I understand that that's not how you want it to work but that is how it works.

originally posted by: Raufu
...

One thing that aggravates me a bit is that some people always describe eye-witness accounts as "anecdotal evidence". It's not, as John Mack stated once. When someone sees a faint light in the sky and thinks it's an Alien space ship, that's anecdotal. If someone sees a highly strange flying craft with a clearly visible defined shape not too far away, that's not anecdotal evidence. He either lies about it, or he was hallucinating, or it really happened. the discussion about the origin of said object or intentions on the other hand, is pure speculation.

I think we can agree about scepticism. It's a good thing. Debunking is stupid though. I just read the thread about that recent ISS ufo and that was a great example for a good, productive brainstorming session. Turned out to be a salt lake, and it makes sense. Nothing strange there. But you just shouldn't say "there is a mundane explanation for everything, and one day we will find these mundane explanations with 100% certainty", that's not a valid approach. The debunker's mind is made up, it's just the same thing as a "true believer" who will believe, regardless of facts. It's the same damn thing.

PS I never had regression hypnosis.

Actually, it is anecdotal until proven via testable evidence to be fact. Claims are never testable evidence. You are assuming that someone claiming to have seen a light in the sky actually saw a light in the sky and we should accept that as fact. That's not the way it works. He may well have seen a light but we can not know that for a fact. You are correct that speculation about the origin of said light is not fact. Apply the same logic to the original claim about having seen a light.

You are correct that debunkers and true believers are, in a sense, the same in that both have reached a conclusion without testable evidence. Only skeptics ask for evidence.

originally posted by: Raufu
PPS

What is hard evidence? What would you accept as definite proof that this is "real"?
Photos - uuh, nope. Too many gifted photoshop / digital artists out there.
Videos - No. Same reason.

A good story, backed up by burn marks, perhaps a photo, and multiple witnesses? Those already exist. Also, "too good to be true", "probably a prank" etc.

The only thing you can't have is a controlled environment where you can reproduce something in a lab.

Hard evidence is that which is testable. How do you, using the scientific method, test a good story? How do you test a burn mark to prove that it was caused by an encounter with extraterrestrials? How do you test a photo to prove that it's of extraterrestrials? How do you test the stories of multiple witnesses?

If you want to prove that extraterrestrials have visited earth and abducted people, you have to start by proving that extraterrestrials exist. This has been attempted for something like 70 years without the production of an iota of testable evidence. It's still possible, of course, but perhaps it's time we explore other possibilities to explain these experiences.

You said you had an experience. Is it not possible that the cause was other than extraterrestrial abduction? Can you suggestion any alternative hypotheses to explore?

a reply to: Raufu

I will accept that you have had an experience. Can you explain to us how you know for certain that it involved extraterrestrials if,indeed, that's your claim?