Debunking Abduction Debunkers

Yeah you are right about "anecdotal", in my mother's tongue that word has a very negative / humorous connotation and is used differently. Apologies

I'm not sure if extraterrestrials is the correct term, it makes me think of bipedal biological beings from another planet and that's not how I would describe it. "It's" more than that, not just strange looking heads and fancy shiny gadgets in flying discs. Whatever / whoever causes the abduction experience also triggers a profound, immediate sense of being in the presence of vastly expanded consciousness, strong and overwhelming. They seem to be not entirely real, or "physical". The emotional impact of "their" presence is however
severe, and sometimes what they do leaves a perfectly round scar or or even a wound that's still bleeding a bit after waking up. There are certainly visual qualities about one of them in newer memories (lucid, awake-state memories in that case) that match those infamous "grey", sort of, but in older memories they exist as visual representations of family members, which is especially painful to remember. I'm tempted to say that they look like what you subconsciously expect them to look, at that point in time. They are tricksters.

So let's assume there is a group of people, like a cult, implanting silly memories about ugly bug-eyed mofos. They're doing something to people for whatever reason that involves very humiliating personal stuff and giving people messianic messages about the boundaries of reality. Or is it fairies? Angels perhaps?
To me that would be just as weird as the alien hypothesis. I don't believe in hokus pokus, there's not much left of that childhood innocence, and I never believed anything christianity claims to be. That's really the only reason why I would, If I had to, vote in favor of the term "extraterrestrial".

My point is that if one admits that "something" is going on - then this leads to the question of what it is, and most hypothesis do sound pretty weird. Those that sound "reasonable" (abnormal mental state, induced by external sources or a result from a pre-existing trauma, there are lots of approaches) are either disregarding the majority of what is being reported and concentrate on only one aspect that kinda sounds familiar to established neuroscience, or they have been contradicted (missing time, missing people, physical traces). "Extraterrestrial" is a modern term, and without a doubt it would have been called "angels" 400 years ago. It probably happened back then and people indeed did call them whatever fit their worldview at that time.

I hope I'm not putting you to sleep by my lengthy posts

a reply to: Raufu

I do agree that something is going on and a number of people have had anomalous experiences. The nature of those experiences needs to be explored. By limiting the possibilities to extraterrestrials (a hypothesis that has produced no fruit but plenty of flakes and con artists, not that I'm suggesting that you're either), we avoid considering other possibilities. Don't we owe it to the people who have had these anomalous experiences to think outside of the ET box?

originally posted by: Raufu
Hi all,

I've just registered to ATS and this is my first post. I like to read good discussions and I just HAD to create an account so I can reply to this topic...

Well when it comes to the abduction thing, you know, there really doesn't have to be evidence. You don't have to believe something and you really shouldn't believe in it if all you have is some strange sounding stories.
I'd find it rather naive if you believed what I am about to say, just because I'm saying it. However, I'm an abductee, but that terminology is BS and even I find it extremely hard to believe, the whole abduction thing that is. It doesn't make any freaking sense when I think about it. I mean, I'm not a nut, I have a nice job that pays well, I watch south park and Game of Thrones with my girl, and I have a glider pilot license. I'm not a victim of some mental condition. That has been ruled out, by the way. It's not like you can take a blood sample and say "well that guy has schizophrenia", but at some point you and your psychiatrist will agree about that.

It's definitely a life-changing revelation, and it doesn't make any difference if I talk about it or not.

Oh also I'm not from the US but from Europe. Just saying, someone mentioned that it seems to be a US phenomenon

Then there are people who say that the whole thing is made up. Well, I'm pretty sure it's not made up. I didn't make it up, but I don't know about other people but naturally I don't think they're lying. I'm biased here but I think that is somewhat understandable.
A mental condition, like transformed early childhood memories? Well, I wouldn't have real scars from memories if that were the case.

One thing that aggravates me a bit is that some people always describe eye-witness accounts as "anecdotal evidence". It's not, as John Mack stated once. When someone sees a faint light in the sky and thinks it's an Alien space ship, that's anecdotal. If someone sees a highly strange flying craft with a clearly visible defined shape not too far away, that's not anecdotal evidence. He either lies about it, or he was hallucinating, or it really happened. the discussion about the origin of said object or intentions on the other hand, is pure speculation.

I think we can agree about scepticism. It's a good thing. Debunking is stupid though. I just read the thread about that recent ISS ufo and that was a great example for a good, productive brainstorming session. Turned out to be a salt lake, and it makes sense. Nothing strange there. But you just shouldn't say "there is a mundane explanation for everything, and one day we will find these mundane explanations with 100% certainty", that's not a valid approach. The debunker's mind is made up, it's just the same thing as a "true believer" who will believe, regardless of facts. It's the same damn thing.

PS I never had regression hypnosis.

Thank you for the excellent contribution to this thread!

I've only got a few minutes to post right now - unfortunately I don't get paid to be here like some on the internet, but I will be back later with more questions if you don't mind.

My first question is this, why didn't you ever consider hypnosis? Is it as you alluded to, you would rather keep the unpleasant experiences a foggy or non-memory?

Thank you once again, and please ignore any rude or ignorant posters on here. One of the goals of disinfo agents is to emotionally engage people to get them upset and banned, so please don't fall for that. Don't take things personally, and just realize they have an agenda and its not really about you.

PS - I sent you a private message on this site, just go to your messages section

originally posted by: PlanetXisHERE

originally posted by: Raufu


My first question is this, why didn't you ever consider hypnosis? Is it as you alluded to, you would rather keep the unpleasant experiences a foggy or non-memory?

Why do you think hypnosis produces accurate memories? There's a reason why it isn't allowed in courtrooms. There's no evidence that it produces accurate memories. People under hypnosis are highly suggestible. If there's one way to taint a real memory, it's through hypnosis. Once someone has undergone hypnosis they will never know whether they're recalling that which actually happened or that which the hypnotist wants them to "remember" or that which they think the hypnotist wants them to "remember".

a reply to: PlanetXisHERE

I've only got a few minutes to post right now - unfortunately I don't get paid to be here like some on the internet, but I will be back later with more questions if you don't mind.

My first question is this, why didn't you ever consider hypnosis? Is it as you alluded to, you would rather keep the unpleasant experiences a foggy or non-memory?

Thank you once again, and please ignore any rude or ignorant posters on here. One of the goals of disinfo agents is to emotionally engage people to get them upset and banned, so please don't fall for that. Don't take things personally, and just realize they have an agenda and its not really about you.

So let me be clear because you seem to be incredibly confused. I am increasingly finding your rhetoric to be rather appalling and dishonest. If someone disagrees with you, they are automatically a paid disinfo agent with an agenda to get people banned? Sorry but that reeks of paranoia.

Your real problem is getting behind people like David Jacobs. You should be upset with him because he actually has lied to you and sold you an incredibly bogus story. He was caught red handed and exposed as being the complete opposite of what he claims and you ignore it! You shouldn't be upset with the people that exposed him and are telling you the truth.

Using hypnosis to recover memories is probably the worst thing any experiencer could do to themselves. I find it disturbing that you suggest that people do this.

Nobody is here giving anyone sharing their experiences a hard time. People have these experiences. They decide what it is and how to communicate what it is. Those are the real deal but only when its not distorted by people like Jacobs in order to fit in the ETH. What I am finding is that anything coming directly from Jacobs wildly differs from the information provided directly by an experiencer.

originally posted by: PlanetXisHERE


I've only got a few minutes to post right now - unfortunately I don't get paid to be here like some on the internet, but I will be back later with more questions if you don't mind.

Thank you once again, and please ignore any rude or ignorant posters on here. One of the goals of disinfo agents is to emotionally engage people to get them upset and banned, so please don't fall for that. Don't take things personally, and just realize they have an agenda and its not really about you.
n

Spoken like a true bunker.


You should know from agendas, Planet X is HERE!

a reply to: draknoir2

I am going to send you a secret private message exposing all the paid disinfo agents, their agendas and how much they get paid and how to survive their insidious mind control technology that makes you post things that get you banned. Will you share all your alien hybrid rape stories? you know, for my research.

a reply to: ZetaRediculian

Cool.

Beats getting hexed over PM.

And I've never raped an alien hybrid, AFAIK. Perhaps hypnosis will help me know for sure.

a reply to: Raufu

Thanks for your honest contributions. Just a warning about the paid disinfo agents. They will call people rude and ignorant for pointing out exactly why people like David Jacobs are horrible. They will say this even after being provided loads of evidence that jacobs took advantage of people just like you.

PS, I won't be sending you a PM because that will be just creepy. Godspeed.

a reply to: ZetaRediculian

ah yes , its been wonderful hasn't it ?, I really feel its all been wrapped up comfortably , that point in thread when one can breath a sigh of relief , maybe even have a mild chortle at the ridiculousness of possibility, that were been experimented with.

I for one feel contented in the knowledge that

david Jacobs = debunked
the methods =debunked
the tools , especially =debunked
the potential for Siamese twins to be abducted = proven beyond any shadow, inadvertently cast, beyond, any shadow of doubt
that crazy guy funbox =debunked
underwear night shenanigans =debunked
aliens with evil intentions and too much time on their hands = debunked

I wonder if its possible to have another body surgically attached ?
ide love to join the Abduction family

your brother
funbox

a reply to: funbox

I honestly have no clue what you are talking about.
here is what I am saying.
- Jacobs was caught red handed doing all those things he claims he didn't do.
- He led his subjects into false memories using hypnosis.
- He changed authentic experiences into his alien-hybrid rape fantasy.
- He failed to produce any evidence that supports anything he said.
- He is the sole source of the information except where there is 180 hours of recorded hypnosis sessions
-The recorded sessions demonstrate exactly what I am talking about.
- Hypnosis has been shown to have absolutely no effect on memory recall
-Hypnosis has been shown to be effective at creating and reinforcing false memories.
- Sleep paralysis / false memory seems to a good explanation for some accounts.
-There is probably more to the phenomenon than anyone currently understands and it probably has nothing to do with the ETH.

a reply to: ZetaRediculian

I honestly have no clue what you are talking about.

what part can I clear up ?

Hypnosis has been shown to have absolutely no effect on memory recall

has it not been used in any other fields to retrieve memory's and events ?

funbox

a reply to: funbox

has it not been used in any other fields to retrieve memory's and events ?

Joseph P. Green, PhD, a psychology professor at Ohio State University at Lima, has researched how hypnotic suggestions can produce distorted or false memories. He also found that people may believe hypnotically induced memories are more reliable, mirroring a mistaken cultural belief that hypnosis acts like a truth serum. Hypnosis is "on thin ice" when used to recover memories, as is the case with most other memory retrieval techniques, Green says.
Hypnosis got a bad name in the 1990s when some therapists convinced patients they had been molested or abused as children because of hypnotically induced memories, which often had no evidence to support them. As a result, many innocent people were wrongly accused of abuse in hundreds of court cases, Yapko says.
"People didn’t really understand the suggestibility of memory," he says. "That whole issue has pretty much fallen by the wayside now" because of advances in research.
In a 2007 decision, the Supreme Court of Canada established a precedent that post-hypnosis evidence is inadmissible in court because of its unreliability. In R. v. Trochym, the court overturned a murder conviction after a witness changed her timeline of events following a hypnosis session that was requested by detectives. The jury wasn’t told that the witness had been hypnotized or that she had changed her recollection.
"In sum, while it is not generally accepted that hypnosis always produces unreliable memories, neither is it clear when hypnosis results in pseudo-memories or how a witness, scientist or trier of fact might distinguish between fabricated and accurate memories," the decision stated.

link

whether it's used or not the evidence suggests it's an unreliable method

a reply to: aynock

Joseph P. Green, PhD, a psychology professor at Ohio State University at Lima, has researched how hypnotic suggestions can produce distorted or false memories

"can produce"


if the right approach is taken (neutrality) mixed in with a bit of dnd *see vid



surely a result untainted can be reached, something uncoerced from the mind,
simple questions may lead to simple answers , just as the kids ask in the vid

funbox

a reply to: funbox

has it not been used in any other fields to retrieve memory's and events ?

Yes, psychology. In the 90s, there was a rash of court cases involving "recovered" memories of childhood sexual abuse. While none of these could be proven, the allegations alone ruined lives. The victims of these allegations sued the therapists that aided in recovering the memories and won. Recovered memories using hypnosis was a fad and has all but disappeared from psychology as a legitimate thing. I recall people being regressed to remember past lives which was pretty popular back then also. Hypnosis is effective for putting people in a suggestive state. Great idea if you want to lose weight or stop smoking. I don't think it can be used as evidence in court cases any more. You are free to look this up and correct me.

memory recall from hypnosis should be added to the list of psychology's shortcomings. Such as homosexuality being a mental illness and people with downs syndrome being called mongoloids. feeble minded, idiots, morons , all psychological terms at one time. It won't be long before Jacobs and Hopkins are included in that bizarre list of bad ideas that people once had.

a reply to: funbox

That is just a bad idea with no basis.

a reply to: ZetaRediculian

so, you would agree that its still too early to put hypnosis away, im sure, when somebody can actually quantify the state of mind someone is in when hypnotised , and its place as a tool in this very slippery field of psychology and its ever changing ideology's and understandings, then marry this in with what's understood about the human brain and its functions. we might be able to see what's going on.

just saying someone's more 'prone to suggestion' is nothing in my eyes

how , why , etc etc

funbox

originally posted by: ZetaRediculian
a reply to: funbox

That is just a bad idea with no basis.

hmm , to ask no leading questions whilst someone is hypnotised ?

how is that a bad idea ? it should be common practise for people trying to retrieve memory's where someone has memory gaps, it should be common practise for all those that enquire

funbox

a reply to: funbox

hmm , to ask no leading questions whilst someone is hypnotised ?

Any memory recovered while under hypnosis is suspect. False memories have no problem occurring all on their own.

how is that a bad idea ? it should be common practise for people trying to retrieve memory's where someone has memory gaps, it should be common practise for all those that enquire

memories are extremely subjective and can morph and change over time this is particularly true with weak fuzzy memories. If there is a "gap" in your memory, there is probably no memory there to retrieve. Anything "recovered" is suspect. There is no difference between a false memory and a real memory. Brains are not recording devices. They are more like story generators.

memory retrieval is a bad idea.

a reply to: ZetaRediculian

memories are extremely subjective and can morph and change over time this is particularly true with weak fuzzy memories.

some unimportant ones maybe, like what I had for breakfast last year , I have memory's like cut crystal , all detail , especially some bad ones like my fathers death , i remember that in acute detail sadly.

I would think being abducted, would be a memory that would be traumatic *to most*, not one easily forgotten .. the reported truth is that memory's are forcibly removed somehow, not always , is this an act of sympathy or secrecy, if truly an actual event? by whomever is removing the memory

If there is a "gap" in your memory, there is probably no memory there to retrieve.

then people that get drunk don't do all those crazy things?, they have memory gaps , so ,there's a mechanism for wiping time and events, and its alcohol , space fermentation! I like it !

There is no difference between a false memory and a real memory. Brains are not recording devices. They are more like story generators.

I thought they were capable of both , no black/white there.

ZetaBox , im still not convinced

funbox