Debunking Abduction Debunkers

originally posted by: ZetaRediculian
a reply to: funbox

hmm , to ask no leading questions whilst someone is hypnotised ?

Any memory recovered while under hypnosis is suspect. False memories have no problem occurring all on their own.

how is that a bad idea ? it should be common practise for people trying to retrieve memory's where someone has memory gaps, it should be common practise for all those that enquire

memories are extremely subjective and can morph and change over time this is particularly true with weak fuzzy memories. If there is a "gap" in your memory, there is probably no memory there to retrieve. Anything "recovered" is suspect. There is no difference between a false memory and a real memory. Brains are not recording devices. They are more like story generators.

memory retrieval is a bad idea.

I agree. All accounts involving hypnosis should be discarded as unreliable.

a reply to: Tangerine

so that leaves researches an even slimmer toolbag , ill ask the question again, just incase .. infact

pretend your a researcher, Tangerine. you hear of a story of someone seeing a light in the sky , then suddenly appearing at home with time all wrong and no memory of what happened or how they got home. you arrive and turn up to the doorstep , sit down , turn to reach into your toolbag* and pull out?

funbox

*toolbag may contain ideological techniques, tools from scientific fields ,etc

a reply to: funbox

im still not convinced

well, you might have to do some investigating on your own. The info im giving you is readily available outside of the UFO lore. The articles I listed earlier, have references and the names of the people that are at the forefront of memory research. Maybe start there if you are interested in the subject.

www.nybooks.com...

good luck!

a reply to: ZetaRediculian

I just did a quick scan of olivers book blog promotion , the words hypnosis or regression didn't appear,?!

what did appear was a man trying to remember his childhood fifty years on , tails of him being bitten and having the memory and scar to prove it , all very well and nice but how's it relevant?

some of these 'abductees' get regressed not long after the experiences happen , there not wandering down memory lane in quite adoration of times gone by

Sometimes these forgettings extend to autoplagiarism, where I find myself reproducing entire phrases or sentences as if new, and this may be compounded, sometimes, by a genuine forgetfulness. Looking back through my old notebooks, I find that many of the thoughts sketched in them are forgotten for years, and then revived and reworked as new. I suspect that such forgettings occur for everyone, and they may be especially common in those who write or paint or compose, for creativity may require such forgettings, in order that one’s memories and ideas can be born again and seen in new contexts and perspectives.

but then he's a joungen from Orwells era's beginnings ,ideology's adopted by certain interests at the time , a by-product of the programming maybe ?
interesting

funbox

a reply to: PlanetXisHERE

HI I have considered hypnosis and there seem to be different methods, but I'm not compatible with deep relaxation excercises (I don't know how exactly to explain it, I can stay awake right until the point where I fall asleep but there's not much in between, like a trance state, and I'm far too self-aware of my body in such a state)

But that means, and I was told so, that we had to work with my "awake-state" clear memories. Again, the psycho docs are all about solutions and not very interested in recovering picturesque descriptions just because they find them curious, at least I haven't found that type of psychologist yet.

I don't think that that memories that have been "recovered" under hypnosis are false entirely, but recovered memory therapy could be causing false memories and even false memory syndrome (reading about it right now). Seems to be a controversial topic though. FMS is not recognized as a mental illness either.

However I did discover all memories on my own, not one single memory came up when a the therapist was present.

Still doesn't explain scars, wounds and weird things like neatly folded blankets and other things that I'd rather not talk about because it's impossible without going into details.

I'd like to ask you why there is such a strong, overwhelming rejection of the idea that this phenomenon could be more than meets the eye. Sometimes the efforts to reduce the universe to exactly what humans can perceive, are baffling to me.

The problem is that analytical science is per definition the art of picking things apart, reducing them to components and then look at those components. You can only pick apart what you can perceive. If there is phenomenon that's caused by an external source that we cannot perceive directly, all efforts to "analyze" it will ultimately fail because the root cause itself is not perceivable. It's like staring at a distorted shadow on the wall and trying to figure out how the real object looks like - impossible, since you cannot extrapolate the 3D dimensions of an object solely by it's 2D shadow. At the same time some cave men (referring to Plato's allegory of the cave) would argue until their dying day that there is no real 3D object (they can only perceive the shadow), hence the shadow cannot possibly exist, even if they're looking right at it, and has to be an illusion or hallucination.

a reply to: funbox

pretend your a researcher, Tangerine. you here of a story of someone seeing a light in the sky , then suddenly appearing at home with time all wrong and no memory of what happened or how they got home. you arrive and turn up to the doorstep , sit down , turn to reach into your toolbag* and pull out?

the name of a neurologist?

a reply to: ZetaRediculian

and once the multitude of brain disorders are discounted ?

as has been reported in many of the cases ..
then what ? ..

funbox

a reply to: Raufu

The problem is that analytical science is per definition the art of picking things apart, reducing them to components and then look at those components. You can only pick apart what you can perceive. If there is phenomenon that's caused by an external source that we cannot perceive directly, all efforts to "analyze" it will ultimately fail because the root cause itself is not perceivable. It's like staring at a distorted shadow on the wall and trying to figure out how the real object looks like - impossible, since you cannot extrapolate the 3D dimensions of an object solely by it's 2D shadow. At the same time some cave men (referring to Plato's allegory of the cave) would argue until their dying day that there is no real 3D object (they can only perceive the shadow), hence the shadow cannot possibly exist, even if they're looking right at it, and has to be an illusion or hallucination.

well said
and if the protagonists don't wont to be known and have capability's to cover their tracks, ie, as in the government , hackers ,etc , any approach would be nee on impossible to quantify . especially if unknown quantity's are inclusive to the equation

funbox

a reply to: funbox

and once the multitude of brain disorders are discounted ?

as has been reported in many of the cases ..
then what ? ..

Get hypnotized by the local history professor? you do understand that I recognize the shortcomings of current understanding of the phenomenon,right? Anomalous experiences happen. Why? I don't know but its probably not aliens.

The Sacks article is good place to start. Actually, anywhere outside of the UFO lore would be good. But I am sure anything that doesn't have anything to do with aliens is not relevant. Yes, its an old neurologist rambling and conveying his insights about memory. Mundane. But he is right. Memory is not what we think it is.

originally posted by: funbox
a reply to: Tangerine

so that leaves researches an even slimmer toolbag , ill ask the question again, just incase .. infact

pretend your a researcher, Tangerine. you hear of a story of someone seeing a light in the sky , then suddenly appearing at home with time all wrong and no memory of what happened or how they got home. you arrive and turn up to the doorstep , sit down , turn to reach into your toolbag* and pull out?

funbox

*toolbag may contain ideological techniques, tools from scientific fields ,etc

I get the claimant to write down their claims and answer non-leading questions and present any physical evidence they claim for scientific examination. I attempt to contact others who can verify. I attempt to do a background check. Essentially, I do the same thing the police do. I look for contradictions, obvious fabrications, state of mind, behavior, history of previous reports. I visit the site where the event allegedly occurred and check to see if the information I've been given matches. I do not subject the person to hypnosis or the influence of anyone with an agenda. In fact, I check to see whether the person has an agenda and past involvement in the field or has had contact with anyone who has.

a reply to: ZetaRediculian

Get hypnotized by the local history professor? you do understand that I recognize the shortcomings of current understanding of the phenomenon,right? Anomalous experiences happen. Why? I don't know but its probably not aliens.

is that something you underwent with your aforementioned history professor?

anyway

I agree , there's no way to discount them as a possibility , in whatever form they undertake

The Sacks article is good place to start. Actually, anywhere outside of the UFO lore would be good. But I am sure anything that doesn't have anything to do with aliens is not relevant. Yes, its an old neurologist rambling and conveying his insights about memory. Mundane. But he is right. Memory is not what we think it is.

im still going through the article it quite long, but ill take a look at what your links say

*vogonbox shoves zeta into the airlock, grunts an airy satisfaction, then strolls off whistling tunelessly *

funbox

a reply to: Tangerine

I get the claimant to write down their claims and answer non-leading questions and present any physical evidence they claim for scientific examination. I attempt to contact others who can verify. I attempt to do a background check. Essentially, I do the same thing the police do. I look for contradictions, obvious fabrications, state of mind, behaviour, history of previous reports. I visit the site where the event allegedly occurred and check to see if the information I've been given matches.

your labours bear fruit, your abductee checks out on all fronts, no past records of criminality , institutionalisation, clean as a whistle. the site bears no fruit but the verifications you did of planetary positions at the alleged time bear no correlations, but something still puzzles you , the memory gap ,time still not accounted , 3 hours is reckoned , and again you reach to the bag of tools..

funbox

Here is a pretty good discussion on everything from memory under hypnosis to David Jacobs. Emma Woods comes in latter and discusses her experiences and how Jacobs contaminated them. Jeremy is a member here too.

originally posted by: Raufu
a reply to: PlanetXisHERE


I'd like to ask you why there is such a strong, overwhelming rejection of the idea that this phenomenon could be more than meets the eye. Sometimes the efforts to reduce the universe to exactly what humans can perceive, are baffling to me.

I don't know if you were directing that question to one person or to the thread in general. It's unclear whether you're asking why there's an overwhelming rejection of the idea that ETs exist and abduct people or whether you're asking why there's an overwhelming rejection of the idea that it could be something other than ETs?

There are two basic camps: those who believe the answer is ETs and those who believe it is something else. It seems to me that the former group won't consider any option other than ETs and the latter group is open to considering ETs but, due to lack of evidence supporting the ET hypothesis, thinks time could be better spent exploring other possibilities. In my experience, most of the people posting in these forums are in the former group. Where do you fall in this continuum?

a reply to: Raufu

I'm not sure what you mean by "psycho doctors". When you say you recovered the memories on your own, do you mean the memories came to you at some interval after the event? How long after the event?

You may never have an explanation for the scars, wounds, folded blankets, etc. But I would encourage you to not be hypnotised or otherwise convinced of someone else's explanation just to fill in the gaps. I suspect that many people who have unexplainable experiences latch onto an explanation just to fill in the gaps and then, for psychological reasons, accept that explanation as their own.

It's true that analytical science has its limitations, but that means we sometimes have to accept that we don't know the answer.

a reply to: funbox

your labours bear fruit, your abductee checks out on all fronts, no past records of criminality , institutionalisation, clean as a whistle. the site bears no fruit but the verifications you did of planetary positions at the alleged time bear no correlations, but something still puzzles you , the memory gap ,time still not accounted , 3 hours is reckoned , and again you reach to the bag of tools..

sometimes there isn't enough evidence to arrive at an answer - that won't stop some people though

no answer is better than the wrong answer imo

originally posted by: Raufu
a reply to: PlanetXisHERE



Still doesn't explain scars, wounds and weird things like neatly folded blankets and other things that I'd rather not talk about because it's impossible without going into details.

I'd like to ask you why there is such a strong, overwhelming rejection of the idea that this phenomenon could be more than meets the eye. Sometimes the efforts to reduce the universe to exactly what humans can perceive, are baffling to me.

The scars are pretty much the nail in the coffin for the debunkers. As mentioned further up in the thread, the epidermis layers of the skin can heal within a day or so, but cuts to the dermis layer cannot heal that quickly, it is impossible. So someone who wakes up with scars which they do not know where they came from, this is obvious non-human tech.

Why is there such overwhelming rejection of the idea? Well, we have citizens of the world being kidnapped, in most cases reproductive examinations being conducted, mind-control is involved, most memories are erased...........and the governments of the world cannot stop it. I guess if word were to get out people would lose their faith in government, and there might be some panic. That is the excuse. Which I don't buy. How is that different from some pandemic the government can't control, which could happen at any time, and everyone is aware of this fact?

When people have secrets they believe they have some kind of special power, I think that is part of it. I think the real reason is the shadow government made a deal with entities, that they would get advanced technology, and these entities would get to do their experiments on people. I think the abductions were supposed to be more limited in scope, but the entities broke their promises and have conducted abductions on a much wider scale, and of course the shadow government could not control it.

Anyway, so it is one thing for the government/shadow government to admit abductions are happening and they can't control it. It is another thing for the shadow government to admit they made a deal for technology and allowed the abductions, if that truth was made public there may be a revolution, and ANYONE who knowingly aided this agenda would rightfully be in fear for their lives. Just my opinion.

Thank you once again for participating in this thread. I'm pretty busy during the week, but I'll be back later on the weekend and I hope we can discuss your posts some more.

I feel like the government knows how to use and harness paranormal energy and entities. In these missing persons cases an agency or big shot official always tries to play damage control, manipulate the media so people don't panic and act like douche bags to people like David Paulides when they should be praising him.

originally posted by: Mehmet666Heineken
I feel like the government knows how to use and harness paranormal energy and entities. In these missing persons cases an agency or big shot official always tries to play damage control, manipulate the media so people don't panic and act like douche bags to people like David Paulides when they should be praising him.

I'm sure they have studied it and know about it, I'm not sure how much control they have over such. They definitely want to shut people like David Paulides up, I hope he is careful.

a reply to: PlanetXisHERE

Has it ever occurred to you that maybe people like him are employed by the government to foster ignorance?