To The Freemasons of ATS

a reply to: JokerThe1st

That harkens to when Masons were in danger if persecution and prevented interlopers from spying on the lodge.

originally posted by: JokerThe1st

That is a shame, I want to put a petition up to start an operative degree/order and i am not even a Mason (If that's even possible)

You didn't think that we wouldn't have at least one operative Order, did you?

The Operatives

Hello again ladies and gentlemen

Can you tell me if

'Illustrations of Masonry' by Capt.WM.Morgan's/1827 is still accurate today ???

It all seems a bit counter productive to be about being good people, learning & helping others and 'not discussing religion' because you dont want to 'offend other Masons views' and then turning around and saying 'Athiests arent allowed'.

The whole organisation (I know that is generalising just a tad) is just hypocritical based on those points alone & I cannot see how they are being tolerant or trying to be better people, because of that.

Its just a massive turn off IMO.

originally posted by: Collateral
It all seems a bit counter productive to be about being good people, learning & helping others and 'not discussing religion' because you dont want to 'offend other Masons views' and then turning around and saying 'Athiests arent allowed'.

The whole organisation (I know that is generalising just a tad) is just hypocritical based on those points alone & I cannot see how they are being tolerant or trying to be better people, because of that.

Its just a massive turn off IMO.

And, you are welcome to your opinion. However, how does your post answer any of the OP's questions, or add to this thread in a positive way? The requirement of belief in a supreme "force/being/architect/etc..." is only due to the need to ensure that when one takes an oath, that oath has some sort of backing behind it as well. If not for the belief in a supreme architect, then when you take an oath, there is nothing to "swear against" to ensure you are being sincere in your word. This exact aspect kept me from joining for many years, even though I recognized the many men I surrounded myself with that I both trusted and admired were all Freemasons (I did not know that at that time). Once I discovered that fact, and began asking about the Masonic Order, I was stopped by my lack of a religious belief.

However, once I realized, TRULY realized it was NOT about religion, but about belief in something larger than ones-self, some grand architect, it became clear that my ideas on the subject were based upon fact-less BELIEF in a greater thing that I could not explain. That, after explaining and discussing it with them, was in fact acceptable since it was NOT based on any particular religious system at all (I saw through the FUD at that point). It is for this reason that religion is not discussed within lodge. It's called tolerance of others beliefs, and not being judgmental.

I understand, for many, that is something that is a foreign idea, and some cannot understand, and so, call it elitist, etc... But, it is far from that....and all I can offer you is my solemn word of the truth.
I hope that explains it a bit better.

a reply to: Krakatoa

Thank you for the reply.

There's a bazillion Freemason threads ranging from wacky to down to earth & this one seemed level headed enough to pose my simple question. Didnt want to generate a whole new thread to the question.

That is a very interesting point that you raise:

The requirement of belief in a supreme "force/being/architect/etc..." is only due to the need to ensure that when one takes an oath, that oath has some sort of backing behind it as well

I like the point you make. Is that the wide held reasoning though, or just what you have come to realise?

It sounds like you and I were following a similar train of thought at one point. I like the idea of any group of people coming together to better themselves & help others, however I am not going to say I believe in something I dont just to join them as I would be starting that journey with a lie.

a reply to: Collateral

Thank you for your reply.

As for the last line of your post, that honest and open admission is a good indicator of your inner character. I too had felt the same dilemma. I could not, in good conscience, state a belief in something just to join. That is why, for me, it took years. Actually, that time was spent (in some part) reflecting upon my own system of understanding how the universe and all that is in it came to be. It was a long personal journey, until I realized, you could call it an epiphany, the things I clung to were themselves not backed by any proof, but only unproven beliefs. Once I admitted to myself that there was no proof, but it was all based upon belief in something, it became clear to me that it might be what they mean. It was at that point I chose to speak candidly, with (now a brother) one of those close friends that I trusted, implicitly. I did not take that leap without a lot of apprehension, but, he was a man of exceptional character, and I trusted him with this very private discussion.

As we discussed it, and it was an open and non-judgmental one at that, he explained that this was the real root requirement. It was not, as many have eluded to, aligned with any one religious system, and that discussion of religion truly had no place in the lodge (when open). If you ever make that realization yourself, and I'm not saying you even have to, then I recommend you seek out a Freemason and rest assured you can trust them to treat you as an equal.

An interesting twist to this is that the man I discussed this with, who has been a Mason for decades, and was a past Worshipful Master in his lodge, convinced me to begin the new journey. The twist is that he was NOT a member of the lodge I finally joined. Yet, my new lodge brothers explained the same thing to me as I discussed it with them at my interview. It was a common message, between the lodges, that are even located in different states.

PS: At the culmination of my 3rd degree Master installation, as all the brothers came up and shook my hand in congratulations, one of the men, a man I never met in my life approached me, hand held out. He said, in a heavy accent, that if I was ever in Brazil, and in the area of his lodge, I was welcome to stop in and join them. Also, he said if I ever was there and needed any help, I was to seek out the local lodge and they would help without question.

a reply to: Krakatoa

Krakatoa, very interesting. We do seem to have a lot in common with our thoughts on the matter.

I was baptised into the Christian faith but it never really quite felt right for me. I've at times thought of the merit of Judaism & Islam and becoming a follower of another religion, however turned them down as they are, in principle, the same as Christianity. For me anyway.

Science for a long time has been my faith. However it tends to leave a spiritual void that could not be filled. Now, Im not saying that that void is indicative of there being something more to life than what Science preaches, but there was/is a void for me regardless.

Its only recently that I put a bit of time into reading up about Buddhism (Zen in particular) and found a similar epiphany to what you described yourself as finding.

I do have one more question though:

I could not, in good conscience, state a belief in something just to join. That is why, for me, it took years.

I too have this exact same thought pattern, however I cannot equally go away and try to find a belief just so that I can join. It, to me, would be like brainwashing myself just to be able to join something I otherwise would not of been permitted to join.

So, did you go away looking for answers, so that you could join, or did you give up on joining and it just so happened that you discovered a path that led you back to the Masons?

a reply to: JokerThe1st

Can i assume the silence = a positive ?

a reply to: JokerThe1st

Never read it.

a reply to: Collateral

It's eerily funny how similar you two's views are to mine. Disgusted with organized religion, but still feel a desire to have spirituality in my life. I can say from my perspective, freemasonry doesn't replace religion, but it does help you get other trains of thought that may help greatly. And it keeps those who are religious happy as well.

a reply to: network dude

Seems to be a common theme. lol.

BTW, I don't consider Buddhism a religion, more a philosophy.

Just as a side note, are there any Masons on here from Sydney?

originally posted by: Krakatoa

The requirement of belief in a supreme "force/being/architect/etc..." is only due to the need to ensure that when one takes an oath, that oath has some sort of backing behind it as well. If not for the belief in a supreme architect, then when you take an oath, there is nothing to "swear against" to ensure you are being sincere in your word.

I believe there is a little bit more to it than that...

The belief in a Supreme Being establishes that you have a belief in a continuance of self after death. This particular concept is important to Freemasons because it means that there's something worth working towards. Improvement of oneself in this transitory phase of existence is not isolated, but is part of the improvement of yourself in the light of eternity.

originally posted by: Collateral

Science for a long time has been my faith. However it tends to leave a spiritual void that could not be filled. Now, Im not saying that that void is indicative of there being something more to life than what Science preaches, but there was/is a void for me regardless.

The problem with Science as a religion is that it pretty much discounts everything that cannot be proven empirically. Therefore, a scientist's understanding of life, and even of eternity, is based solely on what can be observed/detected/sensed through waves in the electromagnetic spectrum, as we human beings are incapable of measuring, or even comprehending anything that cannot be observed in this way.

I prefer not to impose this extreme limitation on myself.