Where will Disclosure Come From?

originally posted by: Rob48
a reply to: EnPassant
This whole thread seems to be starting from the premise that there is already something to be disclosed, which is rather presumptuous.

I would not characterize it as presumptuous. There is a compelling argument for the reality of these machines.

originally posted by: EnPassant
True, but official disclosure will not come until there is a crisis that forces it or until some faction or other sees a clear and present advantage in going public.

Maybe, but though you might not quite consider this 'official disclosure' way back in 1960 the head of the CIA said this:

"Behind the scenes, high-ranking Air Force officers are soberly concerned about UFOs. But through official secrecy and ridicule, many citizens are led to believe the unknown flying objects are nonsense."
—Former CIA Director, Roscoe Hillenkoetter, 1960.

Flash forward to today; Is there more to disclose? Probably but what? We accept that the government knows there are UFOs and have recorded them, chased after them, had missiles disabled by them, and seen them spying on nuclear facilities, but do those insiders in the government really know what they are? Would you really expect them to disclose this to the public with a statement such as:

Citizens of the world we are now going to disclose that their are unexplained, intelligently controlled craft penetrating the atmosphere and our military defenses and we are not sure what they are, how they are controlled and what they want.

Can you really blame the government for the cover-up? We already have enough neurotic and unbalanced people -
could you imagine what disclosure to the truth would cause? Maybe for now we should be happy for the cover-up;
because until proven otherwise the security of the Earth is in question.

In the modern age, government disclosure is quickly becoming less and less important. This is so because nearly anyone with good internet connection can gain access to some of the better UFO reports and discuss these reports with knowledgeable people. These people can aid them in distinguishing hoaxes, misinterpretations, and natural phenomena from the actual events.

Consider the following, if nearly 80% of people in the U.S. believe in the existence of ET life and their current presence on our planet AND can point to good, well vetted, logically consistent reports, AND can get their own disclosure, then what would it matter what the government states publicly?

originally posted by: deloprator20000

Consider the following, if nearly 80% of people in the U.S. believe in the existence of ET life and their current presence on our planet AND can point to good, well vetted, logically consistent reports, AND can get their own disclosure, then what would it matter what the government states publicly?

Well exactly: people can believe what they like but it won't change anything because it still won't magic aliens into existence here in Earth.

Why do people seem incapable of separating the idea that ET life exists elsewhere in the universe (which is pretty likely) from the idea that it has to be here on Earth (which is exceedingly unlikely given the total lack of evidence)?

It's like saying "diamonds exist on Earth, therefore they must be lying in my garden waiting to be dug up", except that the scale misconception is trillions of times bigger.

originally posted by: Rob48

originally posted by: deloprator20000

Consider the following, if nearly 80% of people in the U.S. believe in the existence of ET life and their current presence on our planet AND can point to good, well vetted, logically consistent reports, AND can get their own disclosure, then what would it matter what the government states publicly?

Well exactly: people can believe what they like but it won't change anything because it still won't magic aliens into existence here in Earth.

Why do people seem incapable of separating the idea that ET life exists elsewhere in the universe (which is pretty likely) from the idea that it has to be here on Earth (which is exceedingly unlikely given the total lack of evidence)?

It's like saying "diamonds exist on Earth, therefore they must be lying in my garden waiting to be dug up", except that the scale misconception is trillions of times bigger.

I blame the fact that most people have consumed a ton of sci-fi and have little idea the vast distances in just our local neighborhood of the Milky Way Galaxy alone.

a reply to: Rob48

"Total lack of evidence"???

originally posted by: EnPassant
a reply to: Rob48

"Total lack of evidence"???

Yes. Show me some hard evidence that aliens have ever landed on Earth. YouTube videos of lights in the sky and photos of Roswell mannekins don't count.

a reply to: Phage

or saying that quantum particles spin in a particular direction- it's all just language and you seem to enjoy downplaying the significance of the context of what those people were talking about. On one hand they were bright enough to build pyramids with precision yet so stupid they didn't know the difference between a dream and reality. can't have it both ways but it's a convenient argument for your type

a reply to: EnPassant

you are operating on a herd mentality. I'll choose to think for myself and don't need some "official" telling me what to think

originally posted by: bottleslingguy
a reply to: Phage

On one hand they were bright enough to build pyramids with precision yet so stupid they didn't know the difference between a dream and reality.

You could say exactly the same thing about the people who build elaborate cathedrals, mosques, temples etc in honour of religion. Bright enough to build fantastic buildings, and yet not bright enough to see religion as a myth. Humans are funny creatures, they seem to need to believe in something beyond reality.

originally posted by: bottleslingguy
a reply to: EnPassant

you are operating on a herd mentality. I'll choose to think for myself and don't need some "official" telling me what to think

It has nothing to do with herd mentality. There is a qualitative difference between official and non official disclosure. If it is official it is recognized by the government and the whole game changes. We have unofficial disclosure at the moment but that is not enough.

a reply to: EnPassant

I really think bottle sling guy is looking at it in a very egotistical and unrealistic way.


" it doesn't matter what everyone else says or what proof there is for or against something because I KNOW!"

The scientific community and governments accepting something as truth has always had monumental effects on society. So the premiss that it doesn't matter what the powers that be think because " everyone else is wrong and I'm right" is silly at best destructive at worse.


It's the same mentality as evangelicals and extremist Muslims.

originally posted by: ArtemisE
a reply to: EnPassant

I really think bottle sling guy is looking at it in a very egotistical and unrealistic way.


" it doesn't matter what everyone else says or what proof there is for or against something because I KNOW!"

The scientific community and governments accepting something as truth has always had monumental effects on society. So the premiss that it doesn't matter what the powers that be think because " everyone else is wrong and I'm right" is silly at best destructive at worse.


It's the same mentality as evangelicals and extremist Muslims.

Yes, official disclosure would, for example, pull the mat out from under the debunkers and convert many sceptics. No doubt you would still have some saying it is all a psy ops or conspiracy but there would also follow a disclosure of hard evidence and information. It is a game changer. At the moment all we have is conviction among a few individuals.

They say 50% of the population or so believe in ufos but that is a very lukewarm belief. Presently maybe less than 1% have strong conviction and an ability to discern the truth from the evidence.

a reply to: EnPassant

so you prefer to believe the people who've been lying to us all this time and couldn't just tell us the truth and if they did back when they first knew about it we'd be past all your chaos by now and moving on with things.

a reply to: Rob48


The Great Pyramid.

We already had disclosure. From the White House:
"The U.S. government has no evidence that any life exists outside our planet, or that an extraterrestrial presence has contacted or engaged any member of the human race. In addition, there is no credible information to suggest that any evidence is being hidden from the public's eye."

petitions.whitehouse.gov...

originally posted by: scar
a reply to: Rob48


The Great Pyramid.

I think it was Eddie Izzard who said the secret was lots of slaves and very big whips.

originally posted by: EnPassant

originally posted by: Rob48
a reply to: EnPassant
This whole thread seems to be starting from the premise that there is already something to be disclosed, which is rather presumptuous.

I would not characterize it as presumptuous. There is a compelling argument for the reality of these machines.

It IS presumptuous for the following reasons.

The reality of UFOs is uncontested except by a few hard-line skeptics but, on the other hand, being a skeptic is natural where being a believer is the result of mind-conditioning.

Because governments involve themselves in situations that they cannot control, namely that the public are having experiences that they do not understand and look to their governments for guidance where none is really available, this sets up what results in documents that the public does not have access to. This opens up conspiracies fueled by some big-mouth authors who feed the public bs about these documents claiming that these documents contain esoteric knowledge about aliens, etc.

The public being wary of the way the governments operate mostly in secret believe what they read and/or hear and then they demand that the governments reveal this esoteric knowledge that in my opinion does not exist.

When governments are forced to release declassified documents that seem to show that governments do have knowledge about UFOs the public feels vindicated and demand the real secret documents that don't really exist and the governments are held in violations of peoples' rights to know what is really going on behind closed doors.

All those blacked-out documents fuel the conspiracy nuts that don't realize that governments are regularly engaged in wars and a lot of those blacked-out areas contain secret information gathering methods and results of such spying. After all, in the beginning of the cold war UFO reports sometimes were considered to be secret weapons and neither side wanted the other to know they were being spied on. The Roswell event happened during the cold war and we didn't want the Russians to learn that we were spying on their secret projects associated with low and high altitude nuclear tests.

People believe that UFOs have to be piloted and those pilots are aliens and if the governments are alleged to know more about UFOs than you and I then by default they have to know about those aliens and may even be in cahoots with them.

It's all pure presumed bs and it can all be blamed on beliefs instead of the lack of evidence.

Disclosure? Move on, there is nothing here to see.

a reply to: Uggielicious

It IS presumptuous for the following reasons.

The reality of UFOs is uncontested except by a few hard-line skeptics but, on the other hand, being a skeptic is natural where being a believer is the result of mind-conditioning.

It is not mind conditioning. It is an assessment of the evidence.Consider the quote, given above-

"Behind the scenes, high-ranking Air Force officers are soberly concerned about UFOs. But through official secrecy and ridicule, many citizens are led to believe the unknown flying objects are nonsense."
—Former CIA Director, Roscoe Hillenkoetter, 1960.

a reply to: ArtemisE

no it's more like I can't trust a government that has completely lied about the subject and destroyed peoples' lives in keeping it secret. It's like saying "we have a cure for cancer but we don't want to shock the public so we won't give it to them".

I'm bypassing those sobs. It doesn't make sense that after being lied to for so long they would stop lying just like that. How would you ever know you still weren't being deceived?