Russia declares war on Ukraine. Live updates from inside Ukraine

reply to post by ausername


My concern would be where the people of Ukraine stand. The interim government is obviously popular in Kiev as the 2010 election results I posted would suggest but what about the rest of the country? Those maps in the link seem to suggest a very divided nation. I remember being told we would be greeted as liberators in Iraq and that was not the case. I'm too young to remember Vietnam as it happened but obviously their support for the North was far beyond what was anticipated. At the very least I hope we do our homework before getting involved in this.

edition.cnn.com...

ausername

larapa
reply to post by eliuk

 

War with Russia is pointless... a lose lose situation, for anyone who goes to war with them . I would not fight what's the point.

Seems that most of the world and especially the US administration agree with you.

There is no point. Let the bully have his way, get out of his way, don't provoke him with sanctions that only embolden him.

He got this far because he seen weaknesses. Maybe if you play real nice he will stop with Crimea, or maybe he will keep going, who is there that can or will stand up to him now?

Obama?

I don't think NATO is worried about poking Putin much tbh, it's more the other way round with Putin not wanting to poke back so hard while acting big and clever to his mates

Putin won't be laughing after endless sanctions, it's a downwards spiral for Russia here on out

The west wanted to trust Russia and has done more and more over the past coupe of decades, but it was clear the soviet flame still bummed passionately inside the kremlin, up until this point the west had otherwise only remains slightly suspicious of Russia, depended on her more and more and dropped her Guard, while Russia blood sucked of off Europe to gain strength,

This game has changed now, the west now knows without a doubt Russia isn't going to unite and "get over it" so to speak and so the structure will once more be rearranged to strangle the Russian economy this weakening the threat to us once more

Sure Russia can throw her toys out the pram all she's wants but behaving like nazi Germany while referring to the past for your reasons for annexation is a sure sign that Russia can't behave no more than North Korea can and to change nothing in term of relations is utter stupidity, Russia before throwing anymore toys out need to remember how many toys she has left to throw and shooting yourself in the foot is stupid

The west is hold all the card

reply to post by TritonTaranis


What Putin wants or the west wants is irrelevant and good luck trying to get it by force. Where the people of Ukraine stand is the only real issue of importance. If the post WW2 era has proven anything it is that superpowers cannot dominate the will of the people in the long term.

The US in Vietnam, The Soviet Union in Afghanistan are just a few pointless excursions trying to do just that. Iraq, Libya and Afghanistan are ongoing so I guess they aren't failures or unnecessary wastes of resources yet but in the end the people always will have more control of their own destiny than foreign powers.

TritonTaranis

ausername

larapa
reply to post by eliuk

 

War with Russia is pointless... a lose lose situation, for anyone who goes to war with them . I would not fight what's the point.

Seems that most of the world and especially the US administration agree with you.

There is no point. Let the bully have his way, get out of his way, don't provoke him with sanctions that only embolden him.

He got this far because he seen weaknesses. Maybe if you play real nice he will stop with Crimea, or maybe he will keep going, who is there that can or will stand up to him now?

Obama?

I don't think NATO is worried about poking Putin much tbh, it's more the other way round with Putin not wanting to poke back so hard while acting big and clever to his mates

Putin won't be laughing after endless sanctions, it's a downwards spiral for Russia here on out

The west wanted to trust Russia and has done more and more over the past coupe of decades, but it was clear the soviet flame still bummed passionately inside the kremlin, up until this point the west had otherwise only remains slightly suspicious of Russia, depended on her more and more and dropped her Guard, while Russia blood sucked of off Europe to gain strength,

This game has changed now, the west now knows without a doubt Russia isn't going to unite and "get over it" so to speak and so the structure will once more be rearranged to strangle the Russian economy this weakening the threat to us once more

Sure Russia can throw her toys out the pram all she's wants but behaving like nazi Germany while referring to the past for your reasons for annexation is a sure sign that Russia can't behave no more than North Korea can and to change nothing in term of relations is utter stupidity, Russia before throwing anymore toys out need to remember how many toys she has left to throw and shooting yourself in the foot is stupid

The west is hold all the card

Hes already causing Russia and its companies a problem Standard & Poor’s downgraded Russia’s credit rating on Thursday, citing the Western sanctions as one reason. Investment in Russia is now considered high risk meaning they will pat considerably more interest to attract foreign investors.And even than they have to hide it from the US if they do business in the US because they can lose their ability to trade. Most people won't risk it so he'll just see investment capitol dry up.The other thing is US companies have been directly told by the state department to stay out of Russian affairs guarantee that will change not to ma was against developing oil and gas well now congress will push for it. So much for his green energy initiative.

reply to post by dragonridr


I love how you two complement each other.

Guess S&P will have to downgrade the US and everyone's rating when or if russia shuts the tap to europe right? Or do they just work "against" the commies? And oh pray tell me, what country is not a "high risk" in investment terms right now?
Really, let goo off the kool-aid, it shows too much.

Russia may revoke fleet hosting deal with Ukraine, demand $11 bn back – Medvedev

Russia may revoke a deal with Ukraine, which gave Kiev a considerable discount on gas in exchange for hosting the Russian Black Sea fleet. The Russian PM said this would oblige Kiev to return $11 billion which Russia paid to lease the bases.

RT

Hellas
Russia may revoke fleet hosting deal with Ukraine, demand $11 bn back – Medvedev

Russia may revoke a deal with Ukraine, which gave Kiev a considerable discount on gas in exchange for hosting the Russian Black Sea fleet. The Russian PM said this would oblige Kiev to return $11 billion which Russia paid to lease the bases.

RT

I was just sitting here thinking about this. Because I am the consumate smarty pants, if I were Ukraine's Finance Minister I would draw up an official 'invoice' and send it to the Russian Finance Minister outlining all the 'free' items of Ukraine's that Russia has annexed in the last couple of weeks. This invoice would outline the actual land cost of the Crimean peninsula, all infrastructure Ukraine put into the area including military installations, buildings, etc. Throw in there any military equipment of the Ukraine's now in Russia's possession and toss in a heaping dollar amount for pain and suffering. Seems to me, if you do that, Russia would then owe Ukraine a nice chunk of money.

While this is over simplified and meant as tongue and cheek, I don't see why something like this could not happen in an international court somewhere down he line. If indeed the international community see's Russia's actions as illegal, this would be seen as a unified international message to Russia to go rub rock salt and perhaps put Ukraine in a winning position...for once.

Crimean Self-Defense Forces to Join Russian Military – Official

MOSCOW, March 21 (RIA Novosti) – The self-defense forces of Crimea that played a key role in securing the peninsula ahead of its reunification with Russia will be regularized and enter into the ranks of the Russian military, a member of Russia's parliament said Friday.

“After Crimea and Sevastopol join Russia the self-defense forces of Crimea should be reformed and become part of [Russia’s] Southern Military District,” said Vladimir Komoyedov, the chairman of the defense committee in Russia’s lower house of parliament.

Komoyedov, the former commander of Russia’s Black Sea Fleet, stressed the changeover should be expedited given the mobilization of reserve troops in Ukraine and the need to guarantee Crimea’s security. On Thursday it was reported over 70 Ukrainian military outfits stationed in Crimea, including 25 navy ships, had changed allegiances and raised the Russian flag.

Russia’s Black Sea Fleet in Ukraine Over 22,000 Ukrainian troops were stationed on the Black Sea peninsula prior to Crimea declaring independence following the overthrow of President Viktor Yanukovych amid often violent protests last month.

I couldn't help but laugh at this article, it really is something. I can't believe Russia are still trying to pretend that thousands of armed men in military uniforms were virtually mercenaries and local people. Even one of their politicians gave the game away a few weeks back saying that they are Russian soldiers as well as the soldiers themselves. Let's hope NATO send in some 'Self Defence Forces' to Ukraine. Two can play at that game.

US-based Visa Inc. and MasterCard Inc. have stopped processing payments by cardholders at Russian banks targeted by the United States for financial sanctions on Thursday, a number of Russian banks said on Friday.

The news signaled the first impact on ordinary Russian citizens by a series of Western sanctions against Russia over the ongoing situation in Ukraine.

The rest of the short statement can be read at the Al Jazeera Live Blog

reply to post by ProfessorT


Did you not notice all the provocateurs, snipers, "protesters", etc. being proven to have been western backed? The "ex-IDF" soldier giving them orders? Not sure they need more boots on the ground really...

Yusomad
reply to post by ProfessorT

 

Did you not notice all the provocateurs, snipers, "protesters", etc. being proven to have been western backed? The "ex-IDF" soldier giving them orders? Not sure they need more boots on the ground really...

No, because Russia has yet to offer one scrap of evidence to back up their allegations. As for your harping on the Jewishness of their leader, it really undercuts your assertion that they are Nazis. You have made it painfully clear which side is anti-semitic.

Yusomad
reply to post by ProfessorT

 

Did you not notice all the provocateurs, snipers, "protesters", etc. being proven to have been western backed? The "ex-IDF" soldier giving them orders? Not sure they need more boots on the ground really...

Where is your evidence?

I have yet to come across anything like this and I have been keeping a close eye on events in Ukraine with information gathered from all sorts of sources. I can probably provide you with evidence to suggest Russia has sent agent provocateurs into Ukraine quite easily, paying these people daily to cause trouble to support their ridiculous ideology and pretext.

reply to post by DJW001

You have made it painfully clear which side is anti-semitic.

Would that be Svoboda? Calling for people to "get their guns and shoot all Russians, non-Ukrainians and Jews" ?

Flatcoat
reply to post by DJW001

 

You have made it painfully clear which side is anti-semitic.

Would that be Svoboda? Calling for people to "get their guns and shoot all Russians, non-Ukrainians and Jews" ?

Svoboda represents a minor faction. It is the pro-Russian side which consistently uses anti-semitic buzz words. They are convinced that the IMF and EU are Zionist conspiracies. We all know what they mean when they use the word 'banksters,' don't we?

Found this interesting and fitting seeing how we are calling this a Russian "war" on Ukraine.

Spoils of war apparently and people said aside from the Navy yard Crimea had not resource value:

Kiev (AFP) - Anglo-Dutch oil giant Shell said Wednesday it has ended talks with Ukraine and US group ExxonMobil on extracting natural gas in the Black Sea off the coast of crisis-hit Crimea.

"Regrettably this has not been achieved. Therefore, Shell has decided to focus its efforts and capital on other opportunities in our worldwide portfolio," Shell said.

news.yahoo.com...

Gee...ya think?

reply to post by DJW001

It is the pro-Russian side which consistently uses anti-semitic buzz words.

So using your logic we can conclude that Svoboda and Russians are on the same side fighting Jews. LOL
Your logic is flawed and doesn't hold water.

zilebeliveunknown
reply to post by DJW001

 

It is the pro-Russian side which consistently uses anti-semitic buzz words.

So using your logic we can conclude that Svoboda and Russians are on the same side fighting Jews. LOL
Your logic is flawed and doesn't hold water.

If you're Jewish or Tatar, there's not much difference between an Anti-Russian Sovobodist and a Pro-Russian Cossack, is there? At least the government in Kiyev actually has Jews in their government. The pro-Russian side, not so much.

ProfessorT

I have yet to come across anything like this and I have been keeping a close eye on events in Ukraine with information gathered from all sorts of sources. I can probably provide you with evidence to suggest Russia has sent agent provocateurs into Ukraine quite easily, paying these people daily to cause trouble to support their ridiculous ideology and pretext.

It's easier looking at the bigger picture. Like for instance NATO's positioning around Russia over the decade. Western backing for quick Ukrainian membership to EU (with a mandatory NATO agreement) and a nice navy port just a hop, skip and jump away from Russia. If you happened to be stationed there you would most certainly see Russia from your house.

Global headlines are now dominated with news emanating from the recent Western-backed coup d’état in Ukraine. Western leaders and mainstream media have predictably attempted to lend credibility to this recent seizure of power by Orange Revolution’ retreads and their extremist right-wing allies, framing it as a popular desire to shift away from an overbearing Russia. It has been celebrated as yet another auspicious development towards ‘democracy’ and integration with the EU. But as this new leadership begins to reshape Ukraine from Kiev, the geopolitical landscape does as well with potentially dangerous ramifications. This new regime, coming into being through unconstitutional methods — by fiat of the new rump parliament alone backed by legions of violent right-wing rioters — most notably bears an animus towards Russia, and herein lies the chief danger for the world.

This source is not MSM but it's worth considering.

also as posted above:

Kiev (AFP) - Anglo-Dutch oil giant Shell said Wednesday it has ended talks with Ukraine and US group ExxonMobil on extracting natural gas in the Black Sea off the coast of crisis-hit Crimea.

It said it had hoped to sign the deal in 2012 or 2013.

This tells me they were predicting something much different for quite some time.

and also worth noting:

Remember the Mainstream’s frothing over Liz Wahl’s resignation from RT? How she was feted by the networks, supported by the beast, and embraced heartily by neo-con Russia-haters?

Rania Khalek & Max Blumenthal revealed that tweets, likely by mouthpiece Jamie Kirchick at the neo-con think-tank FPI, pre-empted Wahl’s RT stage exit. Not only that, but that Kirchick, along with Buzzfeed’s Rosie Gray (who coincidentally also published an RT hit-piece recently) and Eli Lake, are knitted into a cosy set of self-supporting neo-con relationships with lobbyists and foreign policy hawks.

rt.com...



The worlds a stage. Our truth is what a small group of people say it is.

ProfessorT

Yusomad
reply to post by ProfessorT

 

Did you not notice all the provocateurs, snipers, "protesters", etc. being proven to have been western backed? The "ex-IDF" soldier giving them orders? Not sure they need more boots on the ground really...

Where is your evidence?

I have yet to come across anything like this and I have been keeping a close eye on events in Ukraine with information gathered from all sorts of sources. I can probably provide you with evidence to suggest Russia has sent agent provocateurs into Ukraine quite easily, paying these people daily to cause trouble to support their ridiculous ideology and pretext.

Be my guest, my evidence is abundant around ATS forums for you to peruse, its pretty simple really and you should not need it if you were on top of it as you claim...

And Rosinitiate, stop bringing facts here, the anti russian crowd will go flatline.

Yusomad

ProfessorT

Yusomad
reply to post by ProfessorT

 

Did you not notice all the provocateurs, snipers, "protesters", etc. being proven to have been western backed? The "ex-IDF" soldier giving them orders? Not sure they need more boots on the ground really...

Where is your evidence?

I have yet to come across anything like this and I have been keeping a close eye on events in Ukraine with information gathered from all sorts of sources. I can probably provide you with evidence to suggest Russia has sent agent provocateurs into Ukraine quite easily, paying these people daily to cause trouble to support their ridiculous ideology and pretext.

Be my guest, my evidence is abundant around ATS forums for you to peruse, its pretty simple really and you should not need it if you were on top of it as you claim...

And Rosinitiate, stop bringing facts here, the anti russian crowd will go flatline.

There is really no need to be sarcastic. I asked for evidence, you can't provide it - that says it all. At the end of the day we can all post sources from state backed media proclaiming they are the next best thing since sliced bread.