Mars is a stupid idea

a reply to: Archivalist

Show of hands: Who wants to go live with Santa up at the North Pole??

Just because humans have managed to go to the Poles here doesnt mean my temperature angle is "inaccurate".

There isn't 'water'. But there is some ice. Hard to get to. Probably loaded with who knows what toxic impurities. Could be looking at filtration technics as daunting as desalination.

The equatorial temp high you mentioned that's during the day. During the night can plummet to about minus 100 degrees F.

Because the atmospheres arent the same and this issue runs far deeper than pressure. Its all about composition. And this part here is a disaster where the idea of terraforming the entire planet, totally unfeasible, without that coveted alien pyramid reactor tech and a terbinium deposit large enough to power it.

Keeping all our eggs in a single basket is most likely the most idiotic thing that one could do.

Consider that 99% of all species that have existed on Earth have gone extinct for one reason or another, it's pretty much a given that simply staying here, and only here is a stupid idea. Especially given the many different ways the universe (including the Earth itself) could simply say "Enough, it's over for humans." (Check out the last link in my signature)

That said: attempting to colonize another world is a very daunting and expensive task, given all that can go wrong with it or how it can fail.

That's why you don't put all your cash on the same number of horse in that race either but try several different options.

As some have mentioned in several ways: Baby steps first.

First let's get some orbital habitats going. Use O'Neil cylinders, make 'em large enough to house people and farms. Put them in orbit about the Earth. This makes supplying until they can take care of themselves easier. It also helps in case we make mistakes requiring quick assistance from Earth, or immediate evac to Earth.

Once we have that down.....expand: make other habitats out further, say about the same orbit as the Moon....and keep going - start putting them in solar orbit around the sun itself. As long as you keep them no further out than Mars, you can rely on solar power completely (further out and the sun's light drops off far enough to where you're going to need a different power source, like Cassini and New Horizons as examples did).

Still want to colonize a body? Sure, you can still dome over craters on the Moon or Mars......just you'll have to deal with longer times to build or assistance (if any....especially in the case of Mars).

But baby steps are the way to go. Personally I think private businesses should be the first to put habitats in space. Make the first space hotel/casino....pay the employees well (if it's an O'Neil cylinder, no problem with the gravity, and it can be shielded just fine against solar and cosmic radiation), and charge the hell out of the super rich elite that can afford a fling in space, and then return to Earth, bragging about it.

Doesn't really have to be any industrial reason, or really advancing the human species reason either. Simply a business wanting to cash in on the tourist industry. There are whole countries today who's only means of survival IS the tourist industry.

No real need to colonize a planet, or even the Moon for that mater. It would still be cool, but in the long run it's a lot easier to build space habitats.

a reply to: IgnoranceIsntBlisss

Staying on this one doomed planet as we increasingly consume all its resources and poison it in a thousand ways, is also a fairly silly idea.

Like the Spanish that crash landed in the Americas, we have to set out and find the new world.

a reply to: IgnoranceIsntBlisss

Well, my temperature mention was along the lines of "planets have multiple temperature zones" and the fact that Mars is mostly cold is not a major hurdle, tech wise.

Large ancient bodies of water are less likely to have homogenized contaminants. Mars is mostly geologically inactive, meaning that the amount of time that the water has been present and undisturbed is high. Which raises the odds that it actually would be pure. Natural density separation would be the key factor. (It is likely ice now, but probably had ample millions of years, to settle before freezing.) If the freezing process was slow enough over time, the density change from liquid to solid would naturally push less dense contaminants outward. Since it's likely ice and would have to be boiled for conversion, anyway, the boiling process would nullify the danger of having any potential contaminants, regardless.


Not having a pressurized atmosphere is a major hurdle, but there is a critical point where gases would provide the pressure necessary to maintain heavier gases below, with some natural convection of course. The biggest hurldle here DOES support one of your arguments. Without a magnetosphere, that top layer of gases would be blown away by solar wind from the sun. So we would absolutely need to establish a wide scale magnetic field, for a real possibility of terraforming the whole planet.

If we fail to solve the issue of how to generate a planet scale magnetic field, we will never become a Kardashev 2 civilization, regardless.

We may as well start now, or the concept of humanity surviving the end of Earth is a pipe dream.

HAARP was a great experiment here on Earth though, and may give us the tools necessary to solve this issue without having to "jumpstart" the core of Mars.

HAARP's broadcast was capable of elevating a large area of Earth's atmosphere. Ergo, the technology may be applied in the opposite direction, to hold a gaseous atmosphere down.

We could potentially simulate a core Dynamo effect, without having a magnetically active core. The "Splenda" of magnetic fields.

It may even be possible to just broadcast a "push" between Mars and the sun. Perhaps a series of satellites around Mars, that broadcast magnetic field bubbles in such a way, that Mars ends up fully shielded from solar wind, artificially.

a reply to: cooperton

So if a rock from space destroy earth we All die on the same time.

Lets go colonize instead

Earth is my home. I'd rather die here by whatever cause than be party to spreading the filth of humanity across the solar system to destroy another place. I sincerely doubt that I will ever have to worry about it.

a reply to: eriktheawful

That said: attempting to colonize another world is a very daunting and expensive task, given all that can go wrong with it or how it can fail.

How could it possibly fail with a leader like trump at the command.

thehill.com...

a reply to: schuyler

Normally I agree with you almost all the time, but not this time.

First off, I have no objection in principle to space exploration, but mankind is not the right mechanism to use to do it.

Secondly, when we say things like 'Mars is a stepping stone', we have to ask ourselves...'stepping stone to what?'

Right now, mankind is not even aware of another solar system similar to our own. Sure, there are some candidates, but nothing for certain. In any case, these possible candidates are not nearby...at all. What this means is some alternate form of propulsion is going to have to be developed to bridge these vast distances. BUT...the problem is, the human form is not capable of being able to physiologically deal with the forces which would be involved to accelerate to these speeds (during their relatively short lifespans). This means multiple generations would need to undertake such a venture, and right now we don't even know if this is possible.

So, we can say we're going to Mars. Okay. And we can say Mars is a stepping stone. Okay. But why aren't we working on some of the realities of what we're talking about when we consider that next step? Things like pregnancy and birth in space? Long term "unassisted" habitation in space? (As it stands right now, the ISS gets a cargo ship every couple months, and has a 2 hour safety net back to Earth...that's not long term). Mars alone is a 2 year proposition. Not a single space mission has gone unassisted for more than a few months.

But those things are hard, so let's pick something easier. Water. You can only drink your pee so many times before you can no longer filter out the impurities. It's the old "no free lunch" thing. So, there may be water on Mars, but 6 months is a long time to go with a limited water supply. And, not matter what, even if you could figure out a way to have enough water for the whole crew to get to Mars, you're certainly not going to have enough for another 2 years on Mars, and the 6 month journey back home! So, you better hope all this fabled 'frozen water under the surface' of Mars is readily available, easily obtainable and ready to drink.

Now, remember, we're only talking about Mars here, not another solar system. So I ask again...

...stepping stone for what?

The common answer to this is, and we've seen it on this thread, so man can escape destruction on Earth. The reality is, mankind is too fragile to escape Earth. Mankind might be ingenious enough to explore the stars, but his physical form is far too fragile to be the one doing the exploring.

Star Trek wasn't real. Propulsion aside, teleportation isn't going to happen, and neither is some long term stasis (cryo-sleep or whatever). Again, the human form cannot endure these things, even down to the cellular level.

So our focus is in the wrong place. If we want to use space to save the human race, we need to be focusing on how we bring revolutionary things BACK from space to Earth. Humans are not durable enough for space, not resilient enough, they don't live long enough...and contemplating things like colonizing a planet like Mars is just foolish (IMNSHO).

Look, if life like humans could exist on Mars...it would exist on Mars. That's a pretty good indicator of the odds of success right there.

originally posted by: DictionaryOfExcuses
Earth is my home. I'd rather die here by whatever cause than be party to spreading the filth of humanity across the solar system to destroy another place. I sincerely doubt that I will ever have to worry about it.

'Filth of humanity?!' Merry Christmas to you too!! There are plenty of people in life to respect, love and/or admire. If you're at the point where everyone is 'filth,' you need to check your filters or move locations. Clean your metaphorical windows and have another look at life. There are some beautiful, generous, quality people out there of all ages and nationalities.

On topic - I doubt we have a choice about travelling to Mars. It's a biological urge to perpetuate life that's probably been coded into our genome since the first lifeforms moved on this planet. We can dazzle it up with sentiments about exploration and bravery, but life is driven and drawn to new environments.

The intellectual urge is powerful too. As Schuyler mentioned, humanity needs to spread out to insure against practical extinction.

originally posted by: Kandinsky

originally posted by: DictionaryOfExcuses
Earth is my home. I'd rather die here by whatever cause than be party to spreading the filth of humanity across the solar system to destroy another place. I sincerely doubt that I will ever have to worry about it.

'Filth of humanity?!' Merry Christmas to you too!! There are plenty of people in life to respect, love and/or admire. If you're at the point where everyone is 'filth,' you need to check your filters or move locations. Clean your metaphorical windows and have another look at life. There are some beautiful, generous, quality people out there of all ages and nationalities.

On topic - I doubt we have a choice about travelling to Mars. It's a biological urge to perpetuate life that's probably been coded into our genome since the first lifeforms moved on this planet. We can dazzle it up with sentiments about exploration and bravery, but life is driven and drawn to new environments.

The intellectual urge is powerful too. As Schuyler mentioned, humanity needs to spread out to insure against practical extinction.

Well said... People who hate people remind me of some genocide pushing entity which IMO there are still plenty of those sick Creations around.

Like you I do believe if we survive the nuclear age without a major war progress will continue in all fields of science. This month was the birthday of the Wright Brother's first powered flight and when you think about recorded history it was like yesterday.. No telling what resides in some black project or on a blue print waiting for funding or the right time to reveal what is possible.

a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

That is a pessimistic view of the whole idea.
In order to solve the issues that you mentioned we need to face said problems. Humans have never overcome such issues without facing them.
We MUST go to Mars to learn how to overcome such problems.

a reply to: Kandinsky

Thank you for your feedback. Perhaps I did not articulate myself well enough and that's part of why I like coming here.

To paraphrase K from the film "Men in Black": a person can be smart, kind, and virtuous, but people are panicky, violent, and dumb. This is confirmed to me daily. Maybe it is where I live? Probably a multitude of coordinating factors.

When I say "the filth of humanity" I refer to ceaseless war, rape of the natural world, and the seemingly inevitable corruptibility of those who assume power, just to start.

You've heard the phrase: wherever you go, there you are. I concede that there is good in our world, but why would anything be better anywhere else?

I might be a bit of a misanthrope: you got me. I have my reasons. Ironically, I do love deeply, in my way.

All the same, merry christmas to you as well.

originally posted by: 727Sky

Well said... People who hate people remind me of some genocide pushing entity which IMO there are still plenty of those sick Creations around.

I do not have genocidal desires, to be clear.

originally posted by: Kandinsky

On topic - I doubt we have a choice about travelling to Mars. It's a biological urge to perpetuate life that's probably been coded into our genome since the first lifeforms moved on this planet. We can dazzle it up with sentiments about exploration and bravery, but life is driven and drawn to new environments.

The intellectual urge is powerful too. As Schuyler mentioned, humanity needs to spread out to insure against practical extinction.

Well, I'll agree with that part (i.e. no choice). I'm not sure I'd characterize it as intellectual as much as instinctual though.

Throughout history mankind, like animals, has continued to evolve and survive by instinct and quest for knowledge and discovery. This time though, I think mankind has gone too far and run into the ultimate barrier, if that quest is to leave the planet.

In 1970 they said we'd be flying around in jet cars like the Jetson's, and jetting around to different planets at will, by the year 2000. The reality though is, mankind hasn't even been back to the Moon since Apollo ended. There have been some comparisons to Mt. Everest in this thread. I really don't think some understand how big of a challenge colonizing another planet truly is. It's not like Mt. Everest, it's like a 90 degree vertical rock face from here to the Moon! The scale of the challenge of something like Everest in comparison to the challenge of colonizing a place like Mars is almost infinitely different. It's not just a "little" bit taller mountain, or a few seconds faster running the mile...it's like leaping over Mt. Everest...from Kansas. Humans are just not 'tooled up' to do it. It is outside the boundaries of human capability.

Maybe in 1,000 years, but not now.

I can tell you one thing with almost 100% certainty; if mankind ever figures out a way to colonize another planet like Mars it will come as a result of some revolutionary and stunning scientific discovery which will be discovered as a result of something completely unrelated to space exploration or colonizing Mars. And on that day, mankind can then finally say..."AHA, we can use THIS to help us colonize other planets!" Until then, it just ain't gonna' happen. In other words, mankind won't discover how to colonize another planet because he's desperately trying to, it will be completely by some other unrelated coincidence.

So my point is; the argument we should keep trying until we succeed is an impractical and unachievable pursuit. No matter what Elon Musk says.

In the meantime there's...Cancer, Energy, Environment, and a whole lot of other pressing things we can strive to overcome.

a reply to: IgnoranceIsntBlisss

You do know that the Mars dust storms CAN'T do what is seen in films.

But the wind, even at 60 mph (97 km/hr), would seem more like a breeze, because the density of Martian air is only 1 percent that of Earth.

Our small landers have never been blown away have they.

At some point if we are still around the Sun is going to start to expand Earth will not be habitable but Mars would be.

And let's look at this from another perspective as well, one of philosophy.

Okay, let's say 10 years from now Man figures out a way to land on Mars and live there. Now what? The logistics of that effort will have been staggering no matter what the discoveries are between now and then. And let's even go as far as to say man discovers water, and learns how to grow plants, and establishes a sustainable habitat. Now what? Let's take it even yet a step further too; let's say Earth is doomed (for whatever reason). And now everyone wants to go to Mars...all 7.7 billion people here on Earth want to go.

Who gets to play God, and decide? And just how big is Noah's (Space) Ark anyway? If people think the line to get in the door at Best Buy on Black Friday is bad...just wait until you see this one! I might even go as far as to say there's a good possibility we could witness mass genocide here on Earth trying to make those choices. But wait! Mars is just a 'stepping stone', right? A stepping stone for where, we have no idea.

But hey, we're going to Mars! Yay!

a reply to: Kandinsky

Humans are a virus:


Now if we could get over our petty tribalist urges, and stop warring and brutalizing each other, and then maybe we could get on to tackling the rest of our dark greedy selfish nature into a reasonable balance, then maybe we could talk about deserving to CONQUER other worlds. Because until we do thats what we'll be doing is CONQUERING like we always have. As in once we put the native population under our domain our CONTROL, then we'll be right back to fighting each other like we always have, our elites will be right back EXPLOITING everything like they always have and like always under the cloak of all of OUR petty urges they all too easily manipulate. Its called Cultural Evolution, or rather the lack thereof across recorded history. Which in my deliberate experience of trying to show the way above all this, basically nobody is trying to listen. Instead, I find, often daily, right in this very site in particular, you get shunned you get outcasted for revealing the methods by which we're manipulated to these sorts of ends, the sorts that has our species fit Agent Smith's "virus" definition. The exceptions it only seems, are mainly the types who naturally could pretty well see thru it anyways, meaning preaching to the choir, a very small choir that is. And the thing is, this extinction people in here be talking about we need to move off world to survive, its coming this Century if we dont grow up as a species, because while everyone arguing over the seating arrangements in the crate of tomatoes, the crate is sitting on the train tracks and an off the rails high speed locomotive of technological "progress" is headed straight for us ALL, at an ever increasing pace, this pace its on there's no time to get off world before it comes. And come it WILL. In our lifetime its COMING. But instead of wake up nope we'll just spend billions on this sort of thing, spend TRILLIONS on the Technological Singularity that's bringing it, as fast as we can, as if we can actually afford it, when that juvenile spending itself is part of what has us on a sure path to inherent self-destruction.


Foreclosure of the American Dream (The Darkest Patterns)

originally posted by: wmd_2008
a reply to: IgnoranceIsntBlisss

You do know that the Mars dust storms CAN'T do what is seen in films.

But the wind, even at 60 mph (97 km/hr), would seem more like a breeze, because the density of Martian air is only 1 percent that of Earth.

Our small landers have never been blown away have they.

At some point if we are still around the Sun is going to start to expand Earth will not be habitable but Mars would be.

Maybe Mars would be safe for a very short time but the sun will eat it to..

Not to worry before the sun supposedly expands and eats all the inner planets there is Gliese 710 which is a known object with just about 60% of the suns mass that will pass through our solar system's Ort cloud.. At that stage all bets are off for surviving the stuff that will be thrown towards the sun and any planets that get in the way. Gliese 710 will pass through in 1.2 million years...

I have to wonder how many other undiscovered bodies there are heading our way ? At 60 percent the suns mass Gliese 710 is a biggie.. But what about a 25% or less mass object still unknown and possible heading our way ?

We live a a shooting gallery as the craters of earth can testify.. Do we as a species feel lucky...The dinosaurs ? The mega fauna just 12,000 years ago ? They probably didn't have much time to think about anything other than run; so much good that did, no ?

Personally, I think we should be honing our colonizing skills on the moon. At least rescue wouldn't be totally out of the question. Mars is a great place to do some science like we're doing now, but the hurdles to living there are just too much for too little gain like the OP stated. I know we're eventually going to have to branch out so our entire species doesn't get ELE'd, but even something like a space-borne city would probably be easier to develop. O'Neil cylinders or something similar.

And any time I start thinking about any sort of colony, space-borne or on another planet, I am depressingly reminded of Biosphere 2. We have so far to go. Don't get me wrong though; I want us to get there!

originally posted by: DictionaryOfExcuses
Earth is my home. I'd rather die here by whatever cause than be party to spreading the filth of humanity across the solar system to destroy another place. I sincerely doubt that I will ever have to worry about it.

Wow, someone who really hates humanity?

You doom porn people are a mental class all to yourselves. I prefer it will be much more like Star Trek where we figure this stuff out you doom people are losing your minds for daily. We have been assaulted with bad science in the media. They attempt to paint those who are "follow standard scientific process" oriented like I am, as the 'deniers'.

Phil Collins once sang very well these words:
"It's an illusion........... You tell me it's black when i know that it's white".

ETA

YES Iggy!

You are right, it is very complex and will require a lot of tech we probably don't have right now. But we didn't have the Moon landing tech either when we started. Hell, we were struggling to build big enough Rockets to deliver real payloads. We did well IMO. We have to try this.