Race. We must talk about it, but we can't. Help, please?

reply to post by FlyersFan

People want to talk about race. Fine. Whatever. But what is IRKSOME is when people interject it where it doesn't belong. Whipping people into a frenzy and screaming 'racism' over the Zimmerman trial, when it clearly had nothing to do with it, is absurd and stupid.

that's what actually needs to be talked about.

we won't be allowed to have that reasoned conversation as a nation anytime soon though. they'll see to that.

reply to post by SilentKillah


They don't have to, they are free to do what they please. It is not going to help them though. They will not be able to have any education outside of high school, and many places won't hire them. How can you teach someone you cannot communicate with? Would you hire someone you couldn't communicate with?

reply to post by Bob Sholtz

the issue here is that a black man can use racial hate language and his following actions are not considered racially motivated. that a latino is accused of racism when he did nothing to suggest he is racist, nor does he have any history of racism or using racial slurs. and finally the result is that we have blacks attacking whites and latinos simply because they share the same skin color as zimmerman.

I still don't understand what there is to accomplish by continuing to discuss race. You're talking about PC reactions to racism and individual acts of violence. We already have laws against violence as well as hate crime legislation and our civil rights are protected. What more can be done?

these issues need to be addressed. i'm for equality, and equality cannot exist when a perceived group cannot be considered racist because of their skin color. it cannot exist when the solution to anger against one man is to attack others with his same skin color.

Are we supposed to pass laws in an attempt to control what people can think in an attempt to make things "fair"? People are going to act the way they act. To make things better we each just have to do our own part. We must control our own behavior and teach our children how to be good people. In the end, the only thoughts and actions we can control are our own. Do you get my point?

Originally posted by U4ea82
reply to post by charles1952

 

My thinking falls along these lines: Race shouldn't even be an issue. People are people, and that's the end of it.

This should be the case, but it isn't, obviously. And I think there are certain reasons as to why this is.

First of all, I think it's unreasonable for the average white person to criticize other races, because they don't live that life. A good example is the comparison between cases (that has been presented in this thread). A 17 year old white boy was shot and killed by a black man, and it only made local media. It's claimed that these instances are unfairly marginalized in comparison to that of Martin - but when did anyone here ever see a black man charged with killing a white teenager released by police? Or out on bail? Or acquitted of murder? When did anyone see a video of a gang of black cops almost beating to death a white man, and for them all to then be cleared of all charges?

People cannot compare the two, because there is no history of blatant racism and injustice in cases where a white person was murdered by a black person. That's the difference. It's almost expected that a white person will get a leaner sentence for a similar crime, because that is what history has shown, that is why people are angry about it, and that is why there is a big difference between such cases.

I think it's important also to remember that there are very significant cultural problems here too. That's something that people just don't want to talk about.

You only need to look at the veritable orgy of selfishness, ego, violence and thuggery displayed in black media to know that this is a significant problem. As a metal fan I've seen people try to associate media with violence, and I fought against it myself and argued with people I deemed (at the time of the Columbine and Marilyn Manson association) to be significantly limited in intelligence. But when I look at popular black culture I begrudgingly find myself making the same connections.

However, I believe there is a difference, Manson's lyrics never convinced me to go and harm anyone (those who actually understand such music know that this is not what it's about) but black culture PROMOTES and GLORIFIES violence against others as some kind of status symbol, in ways I have never seen in any other music. It's not just one voice making an artistic comment on violence, it's thousands of "rappers" and other stereotypical black males making blatant violent statements and promoting it as a culture. It's pervasive throughout black culture.

I had the misfortune of seeing a "black culture" website recently, after following a link to see a video. There's one called something star (I forget) and I was shocked at the level of violence and the glorification of it, it was almost hate speech and promoting aggression against others, one video after another. It was so degrading, racist, sexist, egotistical, arrogant... It really made me consider things differently, and it did make me question many of mt thoughts on media and violence.

I loathe to make that connection, but when you grow up in a place where this kind of thing is normal, and where you are almost expected to be involved in gang culture, or in violent crime, or have to fight your way to even the most basic level of equality within your own community, I'm not so surprised America has the problems it has.

I can no longer completely disconnect the media from the culture and the behavior of those who appreciate it. And I've seen the same thing happening in the UK too.

I guess I can't really ignore the stereotypes anymore.

reply to post by SLAYER69

Though many have bemoaned the fact that Marley Lion’s murder has not garnered even a fraction of the attention that Trayvon Martin did, others point out that beneath the surface the cases are not at all alike. Martin was killed because George Zimmerman assumed that he was up to no good in the Sanford, Florida, gated community where Martin was staying.

Though Zimmerman and his family members have maintained that he is not racist, critics believe he assumed that young, black, hoodie-wearing Trayvon Martin was a criminal based on his appearance.

There were no such racial overtones in Marley Lion’s murder. Ryan Deleston, a 30-year-old black man charged Lion’s murder, was reportedly planning to rob a nearby bar when he came across Lion instead.

Lion’s murder also brought a swift investigation and charges, while Sanford police released Zimmerman the night of the shooting, deeming it was self-defense and no other investigation was needed.

Source

Not exactly an easy comparison to me. Even if the shooting wasn't racially motivated, the inaction sure appeared to be race related, that's why it became national news.

Then the media took over and started cutting and editing the 911 tapes and playing the race card left and right. Fact remains, two entirely different scenarios, two entirely different set of actions taken by the police.

i.e. the Lion murder was instantly investigated. Martin's wasn't until the media pressure.

Was it because Martin was black? I don't think so, I think it was because there was no evidence to support anything other than a justifiable homicide.

Originally posted by SilentKillah

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan
reply to post by charles1952

 

My only question is this: why would you embrace a language and behavior that is known to cause economic hardship, then complain because your opportunities are limited? Poor English is a key indicator to an employer that you may lack the insight needed to do a job, unless you don't speak English as a first language.

The problem here is growing up in a black community, proper English is most likely NOT the first language learned. European English speaking individuals arean't discriminated against... neither are Austrailian. The black communities have their own interpretation of the language just as these countries do, and all learn it from childhood. European's come to the US and keep their terms, phrases, and accent. Why must the black community conform to the non-urban standard... dropping their terms and phrases, losing their accent?

You do realize that the black communities we are talking about are in America, right? It isn't like they are immigrants.

This is a completely separate culture that was created within the culture already existing in America. Would you not think it might indicate a lack of desire to take part in our national culture to do this? And doing it willingly?

Why would people who have created their own culture and language complain about the ramifications of it?

I have quite a few black family members. We have all laughed about how they have 2 voices: the one they use around black people, and the one they use everywhere else. And while it may be somewhat humorous to joke about, there is a real question there: why? Why propagate a culture and linguistic pattern that is known to decrease success? And when you do, why complain about it?

And it is to a degree that someone who is black who doesn't "act black" is insulted? Have you ever heard the things said about Neil deGrasse-Tyson?

reply to post by phishyblankwaters


It wasn't investigated? What new pertinent evidence did they come up with after it politicized? None really. Jenteal came forward, that is about it. The rest of the evidence was gathered in the initial investigation. Political pressure forced them to "dig harder", but they came up with nothing.

reply to post by SilentKillah

All I can say, is after this verdict, I'm glad that I decided to buy land and live away from a neighborhood. How long will my race be considered suspicious because of the way we dress and talk away from the work center?

I'm white, my wife is white and my children are white. I moved to the country as well to get away from people, crime, drugs, etc. I don't see anything wrong with your decision to move...obviously. I do think your fears are motivated by media hype. Statistically, your children are far more likely to die from other things (including black on black crime) than a lone, white (or Hispanic) neighborhood watchman. To each his own but don't you think you're allowing this media hype to manipulate your judgement? You're just feeding the racial divide.

Originally posted by firemonkey


The only thing that will end this is time...old racist have to die, and then the next generation there won't be as many racist (this has already happened in two generations), and soon racists will be very rare and very localized to backwoods rural areas that will take a longer time to convert over.

Stereotype much ? I am from very rural area of Ky , or what you would call "Backwoods" . I grew up on a farm in a farming community , and I never heard a racist remark from my family or our neighbors .

It was not until I left for the Marine Corps that I met racists and it became far worse when I moved into the city . And this is from both blacks and whites . And though I edited out part of your post , it is not getting better with the younger crowd but worse , the town in my county has always been mixed and there has never been a history of ANY racial tensions in the past . It is only now with the youth that it is rearing it's ugly head , coming from both white and black . I moved into town a few years ago and I am ready to get back to the country where I do not have to deal with any racial tensions , and before you ask there are/were black families in our farming community .

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan


It is highly localized as well. "Baltimore street", is way different than "NY street", and even Jamaicans have their own version in NY. I can understand those three just about perfectly, well I could 8 years ago anyways, who knows it might have changed dramatically since then. I couldn't understand Jenteal very well though. Without a standardized language, a country cannot succeed very well. It's hard enough when the accents are different, when you start throwing in localized slang, it gets very confusing.

reply to post by SilentKillah


people get profiled all the time. i had a friend, white dude, who refused to cut his hair. and if he was walking down the road, he was guaranteed to have a police officer pull over, card him and ask what he was up to. i dunno why long hair on males engenders that reaction, but it may be because profiling is statistics driven, and more males with long hair are involved in crime.

p.s. it didn't help that he could've been this guy's double

reply to post by undo


Or being on a beatup harley, that is another type of whites that are profiled. The "yuppies" on the new 50 thousand dollar bikes are not bothered as much though.

reply to post by phishyblankwaters


reply to post by kingrutse


reply to post by firemonkey



You've missed the point.
My post wasnt in regard to whether they "Are the Same" but rather, at how the "Media" pumps up the volume.

When you think about it, only "vanilla" people are the ones really not bothered, when it comes to police profiling. There are certain groups of every race that are profiled, that is a fact. Depending on how they are dressed, their attitudes etc. These days it's not even safe being "vanilla" anymore. The police are spinning out of control. The whole trying to force them to not profile might very well have something to do with that. We are all in this together.

reply to post by seabag

What more can be done?

i'm not talking about PC reactions i don't believe. we do have laws, but laws only address what is to happen should violence ensue.

people need to understand what "racism" actually is. people need to understand that someone with dark skin is just as capable of being racist as someone with light skin. that is the source of these double standards.

Do you get my point?

yes, and i am in no way advocating for laws to be passed for thoughts, merely that as a society we should discourage (through social means and every day actions, not laws) double standards.

my post is about having a discussion, not a debate, and not about laws. a discussion between americans on how they should treat each other with respect to race and everything else.

there shouldn't be laws to force people into acting a certain way (like being polite), but it should be encouraged by our society. it's more about unification than a discussion between groups. more about my fellow americans than "my fellow *insert race* americans".

Race. We must talk about it, but we can't.

I'm going to add a few comments here that may or may not suit anyone's needs or views... it's just my own person opinion on the overall matter.

First, I'd like to change the quote above to read: '
Race. We must talk about it, but we can't WON'T.

Growing up in the deep south in the 1960s, race was a verboten subject. Integration was coming into play in the schools and most businesses ceased racial discrimination, but... you didn't talk about it. Worse still, my childhood home, Savannah, Georgia, was then (and is still in many ways) one of the most racially charged and divided cities in the nation.

Much has to do with history and how the port was often used for importing Africans to then see them auctioned off like cattle. As vision expanded with maturity, it wasn't hard to understand why the animosity existed; between the racial climate leading up to that time ('60s) and all that horrid history, how could anyone have expected anything else? But again... this environment not only cried out for dialogue, it also all but destroyed it before it could ever begin.

I have always admired Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King. His dream of a colorblind society was exactly what we needed (and still need); if we must judge another human being, let's do it based on an individual's character and not something as shallow as skin color. He worked for a day when race would no longer be top-center of most any social issue.

Of course, here we are 50 years after his speech in 1963; race is injected into so many things... and it isn't so much by organizations like the Klan anymore. Today, it comes from government and it comes from our news media... both of which seem hell bent on enforcing negativity and discontent.

One last item would be how Hollywood approaches the subject.

There is an old Mel Brooks movie called 'Blazing Saddles' that starred Cleavon Little and Gene Wilder (among other notables of the 70s). This flick took race and ripped the hide off old prejudices and stereotypes in ways that one just had to laugh at and that approach has always been an excellent tool... humor and laughter because people will get the message in a positive environment and laugh at depictions of racism in almost every conceivable form... even when they find they are looking at themselves.

You couldn't make that movie today.

So, this is why I say that we 'won't' have the talk. We could, we need to but, we won't because those who are in a position to frame it up and then lead it off seem to be opposed Open public dialogue and reconciliation is no longer the goal.

My only answer as to how something like this could be, comes back to politics... something I have personally come to see as a growing force aligned against all Americans of every persuasion and affiliation.

...

I hate to say it, but I don't believe there will be an end to racism and discrimination. Not for a long, long time. It is all through society and deeply ingrained. Even among people of the same color, there are deep divides that separate them into levels of acceptable and unacceptable. Just as an example: Years ago, I dated a Black girl and we went to a lot of parties of mixed race. At one, I met a couple of Black guys I got along with really well. We all liked to fish, shoot, have cook outs, you know, just guy stuff. We were all young, single, had jobs and after a few months of running around together, all 3 of us decided to rent a house. I got to know these guys pretty well, one was a Dept Head at a children's home, the other a musical director for Job Corp. Honest, respectable jobs, right? The girl broke up with me because of my friendship with what she called, "The low level nig***s".

We, as Whites, do exactly the same thing. We see it in threads here all the time. "Hillbilly", "redneck" "white trash", all meant to imply, "I'm better than you", "I"m smarter than you". The opinion of "If you can't see a sky scraper out your window or be within 1 block of a Starbucks, you don't earn as much, or drive an expensive car, live in a big house, play golf with doctors and lawyers, you're not in my class". I wish I could close this with some great idea about how to fix it. Some inspiring plan to reverse the direction we're going.

I can't.

I don't think this is something that can be discussed until you've walked a mile in another's shoes. I'm not suggesting that people pose as another skin color, but can talk to people, go to the 'ghetto', volunteer in poverty stricken neighborhoods. Find a way to gain that perspective, then you can talk a lot more honestly about it.

I grew up in poor neighborhoods and can tell you that even in poverty from an institutional stand point, I experienced white privilege. As a teenage white girl in my neighborhood or in friends neighborhoods, we gathered on street corners, in school yards, there were a few of us white kids and the rest black and latino... police on patrol would always ask us white kids if we were okay or what were we doing in 'this' area (I would like to add in these were not just white cops either), the black and latino kids would have flashlights shown in their faces, get frisked and talked to a lot less politely... never were they asked what they were doing in 'this' area.

So while there may not have been much personal racism from the cops, not much discernible anyway, there was something systemic at play. Their training and something societal. Something that reinforced this notion of white people don't belong in poor, ethnic neighborhoods and non white people... it's perfectly normal.

I had a friend in highschool, a black guy who had been adopted at birth by a white couple... they were rich and he lived in a wealthy neighborhood, all the money in the world couldn't guarantee him the right to walk in his own neighborhood after dark without people slowing down and checking him out, without the random cop pulling over and asking what he was doing there.

Granted this was some time ago, late 80's - early 90's but in all honesty nothing has changed since then, in fact it seems worse. Like we've gone backwards. Not the in your face racism that sparked the civil rights movement or that hung around after.

I suspect that at the core of this issue it is more about class than race, exploitation of the poor and race used as a tool to divide or to make it okay, intentionally building resentment on all sides so we care less when a black person is sentenced and the white person goes free or is never even arrested or sentenced longer for the same crime conviction and we care less when a white person has been targeted in a hate crime and the less we care the less outrage we're capable of.

The system is making fools of us all. It's not a system of equality. It's more like a chess board and we're all pawns.

reply to post by DAVID64


There will be a end to racism and discrimination, but that'll just mean that the last of us has died off. Humankind will be extinct. Problem solved!

reply to post by DAVID64



You are correct . Because of where I am from and because of my Ky/country accent and my "country colloquialisms " I am automatically labeled by not only SOME black people (not all) but white people too as backwards , redneck , hillbilly , ignorant , poor white trash and the biggie I am labeled a RACIST . For nothing more than being born and raised in the country in Ky . I am none of these , the only name I am proud of is "farm/country boy" , and I hate to tell people but farmers/country folk are just as smart (ETA: and no more racist) as anyone else .

If those who wish to label me without knowing would take the time to get to know me they may just have a different outlook of who I am and what kind of person I am .