Race. We must talk about it, but we can't. Help, please?

Dear ATSers,

From a member in one of the Martin v. Zimmerman threads:

This case has opened up the need for discussion. You may disagree and that is your right. But this discussion WILL happen. You can rant and rave about it and hate it all you want, but this discussion WILL happen. And I think it NEEDS to happen.

What I'd like to do is explore whether such a discussion is possible, and whether it is being strongly resisted by our administration, pressure groups, and various media. My initial opinion (and I beg you to show me I'm wrong) is that few people want a true discussion on race, and that reluctance for a discussion was created and encouraged by people who would prefer to keep us separated into groups. Therefore, a discussion on race seems as likely as world peace in our time.

A true discussion means, in my mind, that people are able to express themselves honestly, that they intend to listen and understand the other side, that when either side is presented with facts which contradict their opinions they change their opinions instead of ignoring the facts, and that it is agreed that the purpose is to find understanding and mutually agreeable solutions to the problems expressed.

Let me explain why I think such a conversation is impossible. At the first use of the word "racist" the conversation is over. It's an attack on a person instead of on a belief, and it's a serious enough charge to end a person's career. Yet, I can't imagine a conversation on race in which the word isn't used. And if not directed against a person, you will certainly hear that "America is a racist country." That is simply a quick way of saying the majority of Americans are racist, and we're back to attacking people.

Second, does our poster really want a discussion, or does he want a lecture? I can imagine that in many people's minds the idea of listening to eight hours of Al Sharpton, Maxine Waters, Louis Farrakhan, and Jesse Jackson, Jr., is a torture to be avoided at all costs. Thus is created the legend that non-blacks aren't interested in a discussion.

Third, what can Whites say? You've probably seen this video:

A White saying this publicly would be punished in half a dozen different ways. ATS would probably delete the thread if I wrote the words he spoke. Do you remember the young lady who testified at the Zimmerman trial, the one who had trouble with cursive? She just gave an interview in which she said that the word 'n-word' is perfectly inoffensive, and simply means "person." The term 'n-word'," she explained, may be seriously offensive, depending. So if your accent is strange, you may very well get beaten or killed.

Are both sides in this discussion equally concerned to use inoffensive terminolgy? Not as long as "Creepy A-- Cracker" is acceptable.

Fourth, about uncomfortable facts. Things like the great disparity in crime rates and unemployment among the youth of each race. If a White says its because of biological differences, or a Black says it's because of racism, its pretty safe to say there will be no discussion.

So why are we at this point where discussion is extremely difficult if not impossible? Lots of reasons. Since this is ATS, I'd better start with money. The media, especially the networks, see this story as a way of boosting viewership and ad revenue. If there had been no charges there'd be no story, therefore, no extra money.

Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson, Jr. also recieve increased donations for their various funds and foundations. If they weren't on the news, their doanations would not be as large.

Next, power. If Sharpton and Jackson can call up a demonstration of thousands, they are seen as more powerful and influential. They can get favors and money in exchange for their services. The Administration is also concerned about power. They have learned, and have applied, the rule of divide and conquer. This President promised to be a uniter, but he has learned to profit from a war between men and women, immigrants and citizens, poor and rich, Union and management, Gay and Straight, and Black and White. He sets people to fighting, then promises one of the two groups his support with the hopes of getting their vote. In this way he wins the vote of women, Blacks, gays, immigrants, union members, poor. He has been succesful in creating a majority by combining minorities. Straight, White, males can be left aside as they tend to vote Republican anyway.

Unifying the country on any of these issues weakens the President's power base, and that of his party, so he has no desire for a serious discussion on this issue.

Also, there are people who say "Sure, I'm a complete failure in life, but none of it's my fault, I've been discriminated against." That's a comforting thought, but not true as often as some think. There is created an internal force driving them to hold on to discrimination as an excuse for their failures.

And, finally, (off the top of my head) there is group pressure to hold onto the idea of discrimination. You can see it in the attacks on Black kids who are condemned for "Acting White" because they study or speak standard English.

OK, enough of that. What's going on on the White side of the issue? For the people in power, especially the liberal side of the structure, I think it's a slave owner mentality. Blacks can't give them much money, but they can, and do, vote like a solid bloc. 90%+ every election. That's a great reason to see them as mindless slaves performing as required, provided they are provided with a little more money now and then, and some really good speeches. (Throughout this, as you should have figured out, I'm over generalizing, but the subject and space limitations require it.)

By seeing Blacks as vote machines, their worth as individual humans with human problems is neglected. There is no reason for White politicians to see them as fully human, that would result in their more complete blending into American society, and make them less easy to control. They would be independent, productive citizens free of reliance on D.C. for their livelihood and thoughts.

So, who really wants a serious discussion, and what does that mean?

I am sincerely hoping that one of our more brilliant members can show me a way out of this mess, to a true discussion that starts us on our way to progress in this area.

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by charles1952


Can we start by talking about the importance of the individual over whatever phenotypic group he/she resembles?

Individuals have merit.
Individuals have things to offer.

When we categorise, then we begin to speak in generalities. We look at the "average". The "mean".

Many feel more comfortable within a category. (There is safety in numbers) And tend to act accordingly when within a certain category or group.

Being an individual means stepping out of a comfort zone and having to take responsibility for your (the individual) actions.

Perhaps people are just too afraid to be a single individual.

reply to post by charles1952


I am always willing to talk about anything, even race. But there are to many who are to entrenched in their opinions and are unwilling to hear another angle. Or there is a loss of income if the issue would go away.

Wait...I think I just typed a summary of your post, didn't I? Sorry about that.

But I will say that I am prejudiced, not racist. So in that context, I am a minority it seems, or maybe, part of the silent majority. Wouldn't that be something?

I do believe in what Martin Luther King said. To judge a man not by the color of his skin, but rather by his character. It’s not either or depending on how I feel at the moment either.

As long as we have the politicians and media trumping up things for ratings and votes. It’ll sadly continue. And it will be a taboo subject for most.

The problem isn't so much a problem of the people, but a problem of the message that the MSM continues to pound down our throats in collusion with the Gov't and the NAACP. They want division and animosity... it makes for compelling television and the MSM will keep milking it as long as they can.

world meet sick society, sick society meet world, yeah it's no secret our complete and utter lives are globally filled with whatever the elite want us to have and that's it. oh and everything bad in this world can be directly linked to the elite, through the lives lost, oppressed, tortured, enslaved, starved, diseased, polluted, demoralized and so on, so why is anyone surprised the elite wish to segregate us now through every means possible??

people have been prejudice for tens of thousands of years, propaganda has been around just as long, i can't even believe i'm discussing this as i usually don't get involved with this type of thing.

reply to post by charles1952


Okay, the topic is how to get an open and honest (and intellectual) discussion going on race. I don't think we can, Charles. Racism is ignorance that dwells in the irrational part of the mind. I don't think mere words can cure such a disease.

reply to post by charles1952

Let me explain why I think such a conversation is impossible. At the first use of the word "racist" the conversation is over. It's an attack on a person instead of on a belief, and it's a serious enough charge to end a person's career.

This is exactly what I have seen on the news. I have also notice that some of the white commentators are very hesitant to say what they are really thinking about this issue for fear of being called racist. IMO discussion isn't going to solve this problem. The only way it will be solved is if people start seeing each other as humans instead of color.

Peace

reply to post by charles1952



There are plenty of racist folks in this country.

My only question is this: why would you embrace a language and behavior that is known to cause economic hardship, then complain because your opportunities are limited? Poor English is a key indicator to an employer that you may lack the insight needed to do a job, unless you don't speak English as a first language. And you certainly need both hands and a belt to do any job. I have seen all races guilty of the above, by the way.

There is plenty of blame to go around. But you would have to be a fool to believe that only white people stoke the fires of racism. This isn't the 60's any more. As long as people have a reason to continue being prejudiced, nothing will likely change.

All I can do is be reasonable and accepting myself, and teach my kids to be the same. Outside that, not much else is within my reach.

this same thing is happening in south africa. the new government has said that until the black population represent the largest percentage of the working force, no new white people are allowed to be hired. this is by law. however, since the majority of the country is black and unemployed, this means white people who are not self employed there, will never have a job. the white people working government jobs, have all been fired and replaced by blacks. unfortunately, the economy is in really bad shape and is showing no signs of repairing itself. when the unemployed start to complain, their politicians blame the only remaining whites -- the farmers. this is causing violence against white farmers, who are often slaughtered in their homes, and their farms confiscated by gangs of blacks who don't know how to farm. in addition, the white farmers were employing groups of blacks, who summarily lose their jobs and their homes, which were often on the farms. this has resolved to an even worse unemployment amongst the black community, and it is also slowly destroying the bread basket of their country.

it's like a huge people eating destroyer. it kills the remaining white members of the population while also causing thousands of blacks to not only become unemployed but homeless. and when the newly umemployed and homeless complain, the politicians, repeat the process -- blame it on the remaining white farmers, and so it spirals downward, deeper into misery.

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan


Well said.


I taught my children that the World is a giant Coloring box, and in the end we are all crayons............

Many awesome colors to choose from.

They Understood the simple meaning of it though.

one reason i think why racism seems to be such a big issue still is because all the race awareness stuff schools started teaching in the early 90's till today, all it has done is made people hyper-aware of differences between them and has made whites feel ashamed and like they as individuals did something wrong just for being white and that shame and wrongness has caused frustration, resentment and anger to build up, it's then made into hatred and other negative emotions and thoughts towards other races as a result.

reply to post by beezzer

Dear beezzer,

No wonder I admire you so much. Good post.

I still believe that there are forces at play at the group level. The NAACP, the Southern Poverty Law Center, Holder's DOJ, etc.

But you are absolutely right that the ultimate focus of any discussion is the individual, his dignity, advancement, and removal from as many hate-filled stereotypes as possible.

Are you suggesting that we postpone or eliminate discussions on race in favor of discussing policies concerning the individual? I like the sound of that, if that's what you meant. Would they have to be at a considerably more local level, county or smaller, because of the different situations people find themselves in? I still like it.

Many feel more comfortable within a category. (There is safety in numbers) And tend to act accordingly when within a certain category or group.

Hmmm, thought provoking again. Assuming that's right, can we replace skin color with some other categorization? Perhaps neighborhood?

Being an individual means stepping out of a comfort zone and having to take responsibility for your (the individual) actions. Perhaps people are just too afraid to be a single individual.

Like, bummer, man. (Did I say that right?) I see two options from this. One, the spirit of independence is dying. Two, maybe we have to make it less comfortable to be part of a group. Stop all benefits based on skin color?

Thank you for joining in, I hope you have more to add.

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by TDawgRex

Dear TDawgRex,

Wait...I think I just typed a summary of your post, didn't I? Sorry about that.

You've highlighted one of my many failings. I do get pretty wordy. Thanks for the reminder.

As long as we have the politicians and media trumping up things for ratings and votes. It’ll sadly continue. And it will be a taboo subject for most.

Do you think then that the people calling for dialogue or discussion know it can't happen? Or do they innocently believe that it can happen and that it will be a good thing?

And if it is as unlikely as you suggest, is there any way of breaking free from the cycle, or will this be a more or less eternal issue?

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by madmac5150

Dear madmac 5150,

If you're so inclined, I'd like to follow a discussion between you and jiggerj who said, a few posts after yours, that it's not words or messages, but pure human irrationality.

Could you both be right? Perhaps there is an innate fear of different people, but various groups try to intensify that fear for their own purposes?

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by beezzer


Afraid. Yes.

And it may not have anything to do with the physical. The ego tends to be supported when one is validated in groupthink.

Originally posted by madmac5150
The problem isn't so much a problem of the people, but a problem of the message that the MSM continues to pound down our throats in collusion with the Gov't and the NAACP. They want division and animosity... it makes for compelling television and the MSM will keep milking it as long as they can.

BINGO...

Controversy sells

reply to post by LittleBlackEagle

Dear LittleBlackEagle,

i can't even believe i'm discussing this as i usually don't get involved with this type of thing.

I am sincerely honored and pleased that you decided this conversation was worth getting involved in. Thank you.

people have been prejudice for tens of thousands of years, propaganda has been around just as long,

I wonder if this prejudice can be reduced over time. Allow me to use myself as an example.

What seems like a hundred years ago I was in a military drill competition at a college in South Dakota. We knew there was a hostile audience, as the stands were filled with members of SDS. (Does anybody even remember them?) When we first went out, the students swarmed the floor and our team commander ordered us back into the locker room. He did that the next time as well. We were told, that whatever else happened, we were not to give up our grip on our rifle.

We were swarmed again, I was knocked to the floor, stepped on and kicked a few times, and basically froze with a death grip on my rifle. I was pulled out of the mob by the biggest, most beautiful black man I had ever seen. He was 9 1/2 feet tall, looked like a god, and could pull 50 box cars with one finger. (Of course, I was under a little stress.)

I recently thought about people in life I really admired. I was surprised to see that six out of seven were Black. These things make me think that change is possible, I just don't know how to make it happen, especially against the forces who want race relations to stay bad or get worse.

I'm wide open for your thoughts.

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by charles1952


I'm thinking that at this point and time, well have to wait a few more generations. There are to many people making money off of race baiting.

I don't think that there is a race war so much as there is a class war, but the MSM and Pols call it race. It's working for them.

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan

Dear bigfatfurrytexan,

I agree with the poster who applauded you work, nice going.

I'm going to take a risk, though, and treat what I thought was a rhetorical question as a literal one.

My only question is this: why would you embrace a language and behavior that is known to cause economic hardship, then complain because your opportunities are limited? Poor English is a key indicator to an employer that you may lack the insight needed to do a job, unless you don't speak English as a first language. And you certainly need both hands and a belt to do any job. I have seen all races guilty of the above, by the way.

To start, I think you have part of the answer yourself when you write:

As long as people have a reason to continue being prejudiced, nothing will likely change.

I'm really interested in those reasons, because if we can remove them, we'll have gone a long way.

Acceptance by one's peers is a pretty strong factor. And I think the school system could be but is nowhere near contributing to the solution. Provide disincentives for the haters, and provide benefits for those with more or less standard behavior. But what keeps the haters from pounding the others into submission? I know it's radical, but seperate the two groups into different schools. My problem is that they may all come from the same community, and when they get home, the beatings begin.

But does that spark any ideas for you?

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by charles1952
Good evening Charles!

Those in positions of power will never stop stirring the pot long enough for people to put their differences aside and rationally discuss issues concerning race. They are too afraid that if everyone stopped bickering for too long we might as a nation finally come to realize who the real enemies are, and the enemies certainly aren't the citizenry of any race, sex, religion, income, creed or orientation. The enemies are the very ones stirring the pot!