Race. We must talk about it, but we can't. Help, please?

reply to post by TDawgRex


I think thats the type of discussion we need. Honesty...without the knee jerk reaction to call those that are honest a bigot.

Bet your personal description describes many more of us than you know.

reply to post by charles1952

If, before we we even start the discussion, you tell me which of my feelings are legitimate, then you're not interested in discussion. If I present facts on how affirmative action has been ruled as racial discrimination, but that it will be allowed because of a desire for "diversity," and you tell me I can't complain about it, are we not doomed from the start? It's like a judge telling a lawyer that he cannot provide a defense or cross-examine a prosecution witness.

Depends on what you want the discussion to be about. If you want the discussion to be how to heal race relations in this country, then yes, I stand by my statement. I really don't know what other discussion you would want about race, so you would have to tell me that.

And Affirmative Action was never meant to be "fair" to individuals, it was about being fair to groups, it was about forcing companies owned by white males to actually give minorities a chance at working and rising out of poverty. Now, if you tell me that a white male is "discriminated" against because of affirmative action, then I will have to tell you that you are not understanding discrimination. If a white male can prove that he didn't get a job because of affirmative action, it isn't because the company discriminated against him due to his race, it is because they are following the law by giving someone of an oppressed race a chance.

So let's start the discussion here. Do you believe any race or ethnicity is still oppressed in this country? Do you think white males have ever been oppressed in this country?

Certainly that's true. A quick look at youth unemployment figures tells us that. But are you willing to look for reasons, or will you insist that it's just discrimination? Will you allow me to point out achievement test scores, or the identity of those disrupting classrooms? Or can it only be because of discrimination?

Again, you are only looking at the present and not the history. Do blacks and other minority groups score lower than whites on some tests? I'm sure they do...now are you going to say they score lower just because they are black or some other race/ethnicity....or are you going to look into WHY they score lower?

I think I see the difference between me and you...it seems like you think blacks and other minority groups are just inherently inferior to whites...and I think they score lower on tests because of a history of oppression and discrimination. You have to remember that even todays high school kids may have parents that first handed experienced very ugly discrimination, if not the parents then the grandparents. Civil rights is only about 60 years old.

It seems like some white people think that after civil rights passed, then everything was fixed and black people should stop their complaining, and function at the same level as white society does. But you are ignoring history and the role history plays in money, education, and opportunities. You are ignoring that before civil rights, there were very very few (if any) black neighborhoods/communities that were not very poor areas with poor schools and little opportunity to change that. But only 50-60 years later, and you expect them as a whole to have moved past that and perform at the exact same level as whites...it is an unrealistic expectation.

So when you point to low scores, or crime rates, or "disruptive behavior"...I can only assume you are attributing those things to their race and their race only. If not, please show me what you meant by pointing those things out and what exactly you attribute them to (please don't say "culture"...that is just the latest buzzword for race/ethnicity).

Tell me one other race that has so many illegal aliens in the country. Is it discrimination, or playing the odds? And are you prepared to take the position that that's worse than what Blacks are experiencing?

Playing the odds is discrimination, I am really starting to see your problem with race. You don't understand that a lot of things you say are very racist. Please note, I'm not calling you a racist...I'm not even saying you are doing it with any mal intent....but this is another part of the problem with race relations. Most people who say racist things, don't realize how racist the things they say are.

Example, ask yourself this question if you don't think you are racist. Would you like your daughter (or imagine if you had a daughter) to marry a black man? If she brought home a black man as her fiancé and this is the first time meeting and finding out he is black, would you be just as happy as if she brought home a white man?

I've asked this to many people who claim they aren't racist, but most of them say they would not be very happy with their daughter dating or marrying a black man. This is part of the problem.

reply to post by charles1952

Before we have a discussion, the whites have to agree there is some discrimination. The Blacks have to agree that some of it is due to their behavior and attitudes, and that it's legitimate for Whites to feel discriminated against, as well.

All I can do is shake my head at this.

Really...blacks have to claim responsibility for being discriminated against because of their attitudes????

WOW....and I bet you see zero problem with making that statement.

And as you can see, I hit the nail on the head with my initial assessment. One of the main problems is Whites wanting to claim they are discriminated against as well....and it just isn't true. The only thing they say how they are discriminated against is to point towards affirmative action...which is an attempt to stop the open systematic discrimination against minorities...which would return the minute affirmative action was removed.

reply to post by firemonkey


Hey, firemonkey!

I don't believe we have met, but I'm SS....and since we are having an honest discussion I would like to say that I think you have completely missed what Charles was saying.

Completely.....

reply to post by undo

but some of them ARE discriminated against. if you insist on ignoring that, you are STILL the problem, not the solution. as long as each person is not addressed as an individually unique creation of limitless value to the rest of creation, but rather as a skin color, this problem will never resolve. you are exacerbating the problem by not acknowledging that it exists. even if it happens less often (which i am beginning to suspect is not the case but instead it is increasing in severity against whites) than it does to minority populations, the idea you would ignore that because of the color of the person's skin, proves to me you are a raging racist.

First off, who am I racist against? Which RACE am I racist against...and how am I racist against them?

Second, please tell me how white males are discriminated against?

reply to post by sheepslayer247

Dear sheepslayer247,

Thank you for your kind words, but remember that I don't make a thread that is worthwhile, it's the posters. And I have been blessed in this thread to see the work of some of the best minds on ATS trying to identify and solve a serious problem. It sounds corny, but this is really awe-inspiring. (Now if we can only talk management into allowing Social Issue threads to be posted on the fire-hose, I'd be happy as a clam.)

You've got an excellent vision, and I think it's the correct one:

A child would learn that saying and could ward off the meanies with a simple "sticks and stones" and would go about their real task....playing and getting dirty. As children, could we not play with kids of different races without any worries except for who was tagged last?

Yet as adults, we think were so grown up, smart and wise but we go out into the world and learn to be bigoted, hateful, spiteful, ignorant and stupid people that lose the simple ability to accept our differences for what they are and get along.

"Suffer the little children to come unto Me." It sounds like He knew what He was talking about.

So, how do we stop that, where does it go bad? I hesitate to say this, but since another poster mentioned that being a member of a group encouraged bad behavior, do we eliminate the group? By that I mean, is school where all this falls apart? Do teachers, as another poster pointed out, emphasise race differences in class and fail to enforce discipline?

Should we have home schools working with maybe six kids of different races at a time? That might be easier than fixing the school system.

With respect,
Charles1952

Originally posted by sheepslayer247
reply to post by firemonkey

 

Hey, firemonkey!

I don't believe we have met, but I'm SS....and since we are having an honest discussion I would like to say that I think you have completely missed what Charles was saying.

Completely.....

Ok, well point out where I completely missed the point?

Because he pretty clearly says that it is blacks fault for being discriminated against because of their "attitude".

reply to post by firemonkey


You are replying on a emotional and possibly personnal experiance level. When a certain member gets my goat, I try to step away for a minute or so and think about it. (Sometimes I fail, but not as often as I used too. Hey! I'm human)

It seems to me, and I am probably wrong...maybe?, that you are getting angier as you type. I base that assessment upon your longer post above where you started out pretty good and about 2/3rd of the way through I just saw anger.

It is a touchy subject though. And your input is appreciated. Breathe deep.

reply to post by MuzzleBreak

Numerous studies have shown that Race (DNA) does make a difference in behavior--criminal, sexual, intellectual, physical ability, etc. Recommend "Race, Evolution, and Behavior" by Rushton.

Please share.

In your opinion, and the opinion of that book, who is smarter...whites or blacks?

Originally posted by charles1952
reply to post by olaru12

 

Dear olaru12,

Please don't stay away from us. We need different opinions, no one here can see race, sex, age, anything, except what you decide to share. And your thoughts are different from anyone else's.

Please come in, I'll give you a back rub, I'll rub your feet. (Please join in, I'm embarrassing myself here.

)

With respect,
Charles1952

Awww...a back rub would be really nice.

As muzzlebreak alluded to there are basic differences hardwired in races. Everyone isn't equal with equal opportunities. The problem lies in certain groups exploiting the differences.

Without understanding genetics as related to culture/societies and the associated problems; it's hard to address much less solve the dilemma facing contemporary western societies.

I suggest reading "The G Factor" by Art Jensen

Sorry to see your great thread already degenerating into name calling!

reply to post by firemonkey


I can't visit my buds that live in East Cleveland during the night. I learned my lesson. If I am not being hassled by the cops for being there at night, then I am being hassled by the locals.

I would say that is discrimination.

reply to post by firemonkey


I just read it. Blacks are stupid, whites are mediocre, asians are smart. Blacks are criminals, whites are in the middle, asians, not much crime. Blacks are strong, whites in the middle, asains are wusses. Does that paint the picture for you?

I find it ridiculous, I suppose I am somewhere between white and black on the books scale.

reply to post by charles1952


I think we are trying to solve this from the wrong end.

Some people will always be bigoted and racist. Whether it comes from schools or their parents...its doesnt matter. Try as we may, we cannot change what is in the hearts of Men.

What we need to do is accept that. People have the right to be stupid and ignorant in a free society. But we must not give them the power that comes from being insulted. Why cant we just point at them and laugh...and then go about our business?

"Sticks and stones"

If someone is discriminated against and it violates their civil rights, there are laws in place to take care of that. But socially, the extremes we go to when we experience racism and hatred is almost as ignorant and stupid and the racism itself.

I'm very tired. I really hope I ma making sense.

reply to post by TDawgRex


Great Post

Your candor is revealing to many people I'm sure.

Perhaps we all need to stop and smell the roses so to speak.

I get the same 'feelings' sometimes when talking to or observing people from other 'cultures'.

Some 'experts' claim these are more like 'instincts' and other 'experts' say it's because of early-on exposures to opinions about cultures different from the ones who produce the opinions.

The 'instinct' aspect may be left-over built-in 'defenses' from when humans developed and had to 'compete' with one another as well as animals for food and shelter.

Originally posted by TDawgRex
reply to post by firemonkey

 

You are replying on a emotional and possibly personnal experiance level. When a certain member gets my goat, I try to step away for a minute or so and think about it. (Sometimes I fail, but not as often as I used too. Hey! I'm human)

It seems to me, and I am probably wrong...maybe?, that you are getting angier as you type. I base that assessment upon your longer post above where you started out pretty good and about 2/3rd of the way through I just saw anger.

It is a touchy subject though. And your input is appreciated. reathe deep.

I have no anger, what you may have saw 2/3rds of the way down of that post is me bluntly replying to fairly racist claims.

I have no first hand experience with discrimination, I just have never experienced it myself. I am white, so I wouldn't expect to experience it. But I know many people who have, I also know many of my "friends" who are very racist. They aren't in public, and even talk very nicely to minorities...only to call them "n****ers" or "sp*cks" behind their back.

If I do seem angry, it is only because as a white male, I get to see the racism first hand from people who say incredibly racist things right in front of me, because they see me as one of them. So when people on these boards talk in a certain way, I can tell they are racist and are just choosing their words/phrases very carefully in order to hide their true intentions.

reply to post by beezzer

Charles, as the Bigfatfurrytexan brilliantly stated, the ego, or to expand, fear of damage to the ego, is lessened when one is part of the group.

Isn't that the opposite?

Ego a person derives their self esteem from a group rather from themselves?

Seems to me the 'group think' the 'group identity' damages the ego that they think need someone else to make it.

Cornfused I am.

Originally posted by firemonkey
reply to post by MuzzleBreak

 

Numerous studies have shown that Race (DNA) does make a difference in behavior--criminal, sexual, intellectual, physical ability, etc. Recommend "Race, Evolution, and Behavior" by Rushton.

Please share.

In your opinion, and the opinion of that book, who is smarter...whites or blacks?

A summary is available on wiki. Some statistics, including IQ & intracranial volume are given in the summary. To see the studies quoted, one would need to check footnotes in the book itself. Suffice it to say, there are measurable differences. Rushton's theory placed Asians at one end of a spectrum of multiple attitudes, aptitudes, & proclivities, with Africans on the other, with Europeans somewhere in the middle. To avoid anymore T&C violations, I need to avoid any personal assessment of these studies. In addition, "smarter" would have differing results as to whether higher mathematics or bushcraft were being tested on say european children versus KoiSan bushman children.

Originally posted by TDawgRex
reply to post by firemonkey

 

I can't visit my buds that live in East Cleveland during the night. I learned my lesson. If I am not being hassled by the cops for being there at night, then I am being hassled by the locals.

I would say that is discrimination.

Is it?

Would an unknown black man be able to walk into that neighborhood and not be hassled? Would a Hispanic man? An Asian? Were you hassled because you are white (which i'm assuming) or because you were an outsider.

Neighborhoods are funny things...there are certain Italian neighborhoods I can't go into in Chicago at night without being hassled...some Greek neighborhoods....some Black neighborhoods....some Hispanic neighborhoods...etc. With neighborhoods and areas in a city, it is more about being an outsider than race.

Originally posted by firemonkey

Originally posted by sheepslayer247
reply to post by firemonkey

 

Hey, firemonkey!

I don't believe we have met, but I'm SS....and since we are having an honest discussion I would like to say that I think you have completely missed what Charles was saying.

Completely.....

Ok, well point out where I completely missed the point?

Because he pretty clearly says that it is blacks fault for being discriminated against because of their "attitude".

This is what he said:

Before we have a discussion, the whites have to agree there is some discrimination. The Blacks have to agree that some of it is due to their behavior and attitudes, and that it's legitimate for Whites to feel discriminated against, as well.

He pretty much just said that there is discrimination from both sides and that if we are going to have an honest discussion, we must realize that the actions of both whites and blacks have given people of the opposite race reason for concern.

or let's try this from a mathematical approach.

White people + racism = a reason for black people to be concerned

Black people + racism = a reason for white people to be concerned

Why cant we talk about both sides of concern without being called racist?

reply to post by firemonkey


As I am sure you are aware, sometimes it is hard to express yourself on a forum. Ya type, ya post and a bit later you look at it again and think...Oh crap! But the damage is done. Charles usually puts together good threads and posts, one of which, I think that this is one.

By talking, we can come up with ideas to solve a problem though in this case it'll be decades I think. But it still has to be done. In a rational coherent manner.

If those who feel comfortable saying racist things around you make you uncomfortable. I say confront them, or maybe make them uncomfortable in some manner similiar. Though it'll probably lead to some sort of conflict.