Race. We must talk about it, but we can't. Help, please?

reply to post by charles1952


First of all, what a well written thread! After the first few sentences I couldn't have left it if I tried!

S&F

So, who really wants a serious discussion, and what does that mean?

I'd like to respond to your question with a question of my own; what is there to discuss about race ? You summed up nicely the actors who always bring the issue up (politicians,community agitators, sensationalist media, etc) and what has ever really been accomplished? What positive outcome have we achieved since the civil rights movement decades ago? What is left to accomplish by discussing race???

It seems the issue of race is only brought up publicly by those who wish to use it to further an agenda. Unfortunately that agenda is never aimed at fixing the problems. Are there really any problems to be fixed??

I've found that the simplest answers to problems are often correct so I propose the following:

How about we STOP talking about race for a while and maybe we'll find there is no problem! Maybe if we stop buying into the narrative we can simply live together as Americans.

Just a thought!

reply to post by sonnny1


I was extremely critical of the previous administration and I'm extremely critical of our current President (I strongly regret voting for him in 2008, I was fooled).

I slightly disagree though about "the powers that be" trying to divide us. To some degree, that tactic is used but I think the bigger threat is their onslaught of "every person is equal", and the "tolerate everything" that children are indoctrinated with.

Look at the deliberate attempts by those in power to change the racial demographics of Northern Europe. They're literally forcing the people of Europe to live side by side with uneducated savages from the third world. We are "all human", but that's fairly irreverent IMO.

reply to post by seabag


this is the problem: the media won't leave it alone. the government won't leave it alone. they rub it up, teach it at our universities, encourage it in music, movies and other forms of entertainment. they exclude you from social services, ignore injustices done to you, and basically act like it's normal and to be expected if you have race-related problems as a white person. they trained an entire generation of people to be dependent on them so they could manipulate them into what you see now. it's only getting worse. many try to rise above it, only to get pushed down by the growing tide of racism. it's bad. people who werent racist a year ago are now racist because of trayvon and zimmerman case.

anybody who says this racism is justified, is an accessory to the genocide that is coming.

reply to post by FuZe7


That's the "suck it up we know what's best for you" doctrine of social construction we're enduring today.

Everyone gets a trophy, everyone gets the blue ribbon, everyone is in first place.

You're all special. There are no losers, only winners.

This type of mentality lends itself to the kind of race pimping the media perpetrates on us on a regular basis.

I'm a hispanic immigrant. In my neck of the race woods I was supposed to be a gang banger and sell drugs for a living. Instead I learned to speak proper English, got an education, joined the Army, and am now married to a very lovely redhead, and a father of a very lovely 3 month old half Irish girl.

I did all of this because I don't believe that everyone is special and that we're all winners. And I sure as hell don't believe that my problems exist because white people made them exist. The white man never held me down. But I can assure you if I had let them, My own fellow hispanic people would have.

The culture in the black and hispanic community has got to change. White people have already changed everything about themselves to appease the loudest of the race pimps. Somehow the race pimps have convinced both hispanics and blacks that white people gotta do all the work. That they are simply victims of white racism, and that they aren't responsible for themselves.

Is it any wonder these two cultures in American society are suffering from poverty, gang violence, drugs, and dependency on government assistance? It isn't a wonder to me. I grew up there.

I thank God every day I didn't get sucked into it.

Originally posted by projectvxn
reply to post by FuZe7

 

I did all of this because I don't believe that everyone is special and that we're all winners.

Excellent post!!

Originally posted by seabag

How about we STOP talking about race for a while and maybe we'll find there is no problem!

Nuff Said

reply to post by projectvxn


and what happens when the economy implodes the rest of the way? it will be blamed on little old ladies, newborn babies and rocket scientists. etc, because of skin color

when the bolsheviks took over russia, the first thing they did was kill all the people with skills - if you could operate a machine, you were shot. if you had an education, you were shot. if you had a farm, you were dead (in fact, they starved the entire population of the ukraine, to death in their own homes, the biggest mass concentration camp in history) because the farmers there were not happy with having to give up so much of their crop yields to the communists that they didn't have enough left to feed their only families. so the communists surrounded the borders of the ukraine, took all their crops and their seeds and refused to let any food in. then watched while 35 million ukrainians died a slow painful death from starvation and took bets on whether they would stoop to cannabalizing each other.

Originally posted by Tw0Sides

Originally posted by seabag

How about we STOP talking about race for a while and maybe we'll find there is no problem!

Nuff Said

Then my suggestion to those members that frequent the race thread discussions and don't want to talk about race....

STFU and take your own advice!!!

reply to post by undo


I responded but then realized there just wasn't any point in my response that I cared to make.

reply to post by charles1952



My thinking falls along these lines: Race shouldn't even be an issue. People are people, and that's the end of it. However, (and you can blame the conspiracy theorist in me for this) it seems TPTB are hell-bent on keeping us divided. Keeping us divided makes us weaker, and easier to manipulate. It sucks but, it's a sad fact.

Originally posted by projectvxn
reply to post by undo

 

I responded but then realized there just wasn't any point in my response that I cared to make.

edit on 17-7-2013 by projectvxn because: (no reason given)

were you unhappy with my response??

i thought it was relevant, that if there's a race war, they will be killing the people who have historically worked to pay for the social programs. it's like god deciding to just randomly wipe out his own people, for no other reason than skin color. how's that going to effect the survivors?

reply to post by undo


It was my response I was unhappy with.

I don't think there's going to be a race war. I don't play what if games like that.
I serve with people from many different races in the army. They are all my brothers and sisters.
I simply can't think like that.

Originally posted by projectvxn
reply to post by undo

 

It was my response I was unhappy with.

I don't think there's going to be a race war. I don't play what if games like that.
I serve with people from many different races in the army. They are all my brothers and sisters.
I simply can't think like that.

i don't want to either. i try to ignore it,
but it keeps popping up.

reply to post by charles1952


I now work in a low income area in NY. It is mostly hispanic but with a strong African American community. We had a zimmerman protest today.

In walks this lady into the store where I am working behind the counter. I could tell she was one of the organizers of the rally or at least was involved at some level of the rally officially. I know almost everyone in a 4 block radius and I have a very good idea of who is around beyond that. I know who is from our hood or not. I am pretty good at reading people and she really was just stopping by to pick something up, but she couldnt resist gaging us present to see if we :

1. Had gotten any emails about the whole thing.

2. How informed we were about the facts.

and

3. What our take on it all was.

She played dumb and acted like she was just not into it....meanwhile EVERYTHING about her screams well informed white female liberal. Everything. That was a big giveaway. You cant just live your life to an extreme and then act like anything but. Like if a red hearted texan tried to chat you up about how too many rights is a bad thing. It is absurd and slightly insulting to think I would buy it.

Anyways, I go off about how race is really as much an issue as opportunists make it out so as to be to further their carrier among other things and how really the only reason this one shooting got so much attention was because it was sensational and a was as such great distraction.

She was curious to continue the conversation trying to nudge it into a counter argument about how the people at the rally werent just black and how it was a race issue.

I went on to talk about how the person everyone very IGNORANTLY thinks is white, because NO ONE bothered to properly inform them, rather just excited and incited them to think it a "RACE ISSUE", is a minority himself. How he has literally black and hispanic family members and how he himself is a latino.

Had his supposed "racial" profiling been of a white person with a thug appearance, or a white kid with a satanic heavy metal look, no one would care.

I said that if anything THAT was the real race issue. That there is a double standard and that it reinforces counter racism from minorities that actually think that the system gives a damn about what color your skin is......it doesnt.

It is a system that focuses on self preservation of its power so as to maintain its ability to control MILLIONS of people at the same time. Control them for both good and bads reasons depending on how literal your interpretation of personal freedom is.

She ended the conversation politely as she was satisfied with the probing she performed so as to assess the impact and effectiveness of the rally in a local store.

What I have to ask is why....


Why send people who study to supposedly help their fellow man out to a ghetto neighborhood they dont even live in to get everyone all riled up over one shooting. They act out their white guilt they feel obliged to show like some form of penance or their ultra radical race sensitivity because they think everything bad in their life happens because people are racist towards them. Then they go home to their nice neighborhood that is protected by the same exact sort of security and type of people that shot this kid (which they bitch about if its not there) and leave everyone they supposedly came to help back in their soap box slums with the anger of self imposed racism to get hostile and violent with each other.

This is not a government conspiracy that sends well educated people into ghettos to make them think that the white man is out to get them because they are black. It is a passive aggressive stunt to push public attention away from REAL issues so as to force feed people prepackaged agendas.

They arent their trying to educate people there about the downward spiral that is dependence on government aid, or how a life style of paranoia about race is not conducive towards success in life be it in business or in personal matters. NO.

They go to win votes for who ever is there to "support" them in "their" cause....even though their cause is the product of elaborate marketing by people trying to climb up the public support ladder so they can rest their ass in a nice tax payer paid seat in city hall in the future.

I am sorry about this long ass post, but I am sick of it. I am by far NOT a racist person being that I am culturally latino and my wife is ethnically a minority. BUT If I was anyone else I would think... "if I get one more dirty look from some young angry black kid over this crap I may snap and act like a fool"......or at least that is what every single white person in my neighborhood is thinking as this goes on.

I actually dont care either way, but I wanted to point out how dividing "race" issues are. They are as much an issue as we make them. And that is my point and 2 cents. The more we tell minorities that the world is against them because its racist, the more they act on it and make it that way... and on and on it goes......so just freaking stop.

EDIT:
Also I am really tired of freaking rallies...I just moved from Europe where they had one literally everyday down the street from me and I am starting to think I am getting traumatized...lol...

reply to post by seabag

what is there to discuss about race ?

there are things that truly need to be addressed. issues that, if left untreated, will fester.

the issue here is that a black man can use racial hate language and his following actions are not considered racially motivated. that a latino is accused of racism when he did nothing to suggest he is racist, nor does he have any history of racism or using racial slurs. and finally the result is that we have blacks attacking whites and latinos simply because they share the same skin color as zimmerman.

these issues need to be addressed. i'm for equality, and equality cannot exist when a perceived group cannot be considered racist because of their skin color. it cannot exist when the solution to anger against one man is to attack others with his same skin color.

Originally posted by charles1952
reply to post by sonnny1

 

I remember in the Zimmerman trial (and no, I'm not making this about Zimmerman) witnesses testified to how much love he showed Black children, and a Black man wrongly accused. (For that matter, his Black High School prom date.) Could it be that he influenced those lives by the example of love and concern he was showing? Is that the path we are called to walk, regardless of risk to ourselves?

With respect,
Charles1952

It is quite possible for this to be the case, but this does not make one not a racist. It is quite common to have people of different ethnicity in your life and for you to still be racially biased. This is part of the problem, people going "I know x and therefore can't possibly be racist". It is an untrue statement, in all reality everyone is racist and sexist accept it and then deal with it. But there are a number of issues in this subject that need to be addressed. The N-word being one of them. Humans are a highly social animal and highly adaptive. If you put a white person in a group of black people using this word it will not be long before he slips up and uses this word and not mean it in any bad sense. That is just part of how the brain is wired. So it has to be decided whether or not we are changing the meaning of the word or stop using it altogether, you can't just simply have it both ways, it is only making things worse.

Originally posted by ProfEmeritus
reply to post by charles1952

 

In a way, the solution to wiping out bigotry was, perhaps without the author's intent, outlined in a book " Getting to Yes", by Fisher and Ury. Very simply, to come to agreements between two parties, they should focus on interests, not positions. Almost all conflict in the world today, results from parties standing by conflicting "positions". Positions are immutable, and when two parties stand by conflicting positions, no agreement can follow. By concentrating on interests, solutions to problems can be found that satisfy both parties. This is a rather simple concept, but one that politicians don't seem to understand, or are unwilling to adapt to. Of course, the media is culpable in maintaining racial tensions, as it viewership and readership are of paramount importance.
Rather than trying to bring people together, the current environment in our country is to keep the racial tension at a high level, because they believe that it will bring in the votes, and the votes result in maintaining power, and the resultant spoils of power.
In simple terms, the media, special interests, and politicians fan the fire of racial tension. It certainly does not take a genius to see that.

This is brilliant but the difficulty is making it worth people's while to focus on the work, or their mutual benefit instead of their personal issues. It would help if we raised our children to have focus and self-control to do what is in their best interests. This takes training and support. This is why I support mindfulness programs in the schools. Mindfulness is a meditational practice that helps people recognize their own emotions before they act on them.

Another benefit mindfulness is that you begin to value the interior life, or self. What a person thinks, how he runs his thought-life, becomes the focus instead of external triggers to which he automatically reacts. A mindful person is keenly aware of his feelings, thoughts and seeks to be non-judgmental toward himself and others. Such a person is rarely racist and almost always acts in a rational manner.

Originally posted by beezzer
reply to post by charles1952

 

Can we start by talking about the importance of the individual over whatever phenotypic group he/she resembles?

Individuals have merit.
Individuals have things to offer.

When we categorise, then we begin to speak in generalities. We look at the "average". The "mean".

Many feel more comfortable within a category. (There is safety in numbers) And tend to act accordingly when within a certain category or group.

Being an individual means stepping out of a comfort zone and having to take responsibility for your (the individual) actions.

Perhaps people are just too afraid to be a single individual.

I think reading this gives me a good time to tell what was said to me yestarday at the smoke area during my break. Let me go though a little background so that you know who I am in cronological order:

Black.
Born in Virginia.
Grew up in Washington, DC.
Numerous fights throughout Elementary and Middle School.
Habitual liar in HS... boasted about drinking, smoking, carrying guns, and other criminal behavior to seem cool to my peers. (Trayvon Martin... maybe?)
Wore "thug" clothing... Took dumb pictures doing dumb things (good thing my family couldn't afford internet then). (Trayvon Martin... maybe?)
Had long hair in cornrows or braids all the time.
4 suspensions from major fights in HS. One involved punching a teacher who deliberately yelled, spit, and cursed 3 inches from my face (provoked). (Trayvon Martin... maybe?)
Still graduated HS with a 4.1 GPA (University HS and Advanced Placement classes and exams). (Trayvon Martin was passing)
Graduated college... GPA not as good, but never failed a class.
Air Force veteran... 6 years active duty... medically retired O-3. 4 deployments (4 - 6 months each).
Started growing dreadlocks after retirement (I like the look).
Got married to my wife whom I met in college.
Had children.
Worked for DoD as a civilian 4 years.
Was contacted and offered a promotion to work for another agency with promotion... never applied (took the job).
Moved back to DC.
Here I am.

I have gone though my rough "thug" years, grew up in a poor home, in a bad neighborhood, and dealt with bad people. Still I've become much better. To all of you that think Trayvon wasn't a decent human being... you have no idea who is truly is. You're already profiling him as the "average" just as beezzer stated.

Back to me:
Discussion in the smoking area at work leads to the Martin case and the verdict of Zimmerman. Mainly white guys in the conversation, 1 white woman, and myself. Very few agreed with the verdict, majority feel Zimmerman should have been convicted.

THEN... one of the guys that agrees with the verdict (Zimmerman innocent) states to me... looking dead in my eyes "If you were to walk through my neighborhood at night dressed like Trayvon, I'd follow you too". He's saying, I look suspicious. I'm a higher pay grade, section Chief, and I look suspicious because I dare to be different than other suit wearing officials in my building by having dreadlocks? Additionally, I'd dress EXACTLY like Trayvon did on a cool rainy night. And I'm a smoker obviously, so there's a high chance I'll be seen outside! And this is why Obama would make the statement "my boy would look like Trayvon".

That really has me thinking... I recently moved from very large neighborhood that majority white people live in. I have two small boys that will be teenagers. If they have a friend living in another section of the neighborhood that they visit, they would be profiled within the confines of our own safe neighborhood had I stayed there. Might a neighborhood watch official stalk my boys on their way back from 7-11?

All I can say, is after this verdict, I'm glad that I decided to buy land and live away from a neighborhood. How long will my race be considered suspicious because of the way we dress and talk away from the work center?

People want to talk about race. Fine. Whatever. But what is IRKSOME is when people interject it where it doesn't belong. Whipping people into a frenzy and screaming 'racism' over the Zimmerman trial, when it clearly had nothing to do with it, is absurd and stupid.

Do it right. Complain about real racism. Don't manufacture it. And don't feed the race baiters.

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan
reply to post by charles1952

 

My only question is this: why would you embrace a language and behavior that is known to cause economic hardship, then complain because your opportunities are limited? Poor English is a key indicator to an employer that you may lack the insight needed to do a job, unless you don't speak English as a first language.

The problem here is growing up in a black community, proper English is most likely NOT the first language learned. European English speaking individuals arean't discriminated against... neither are Austrailian. The black communities have their own interpretation of the language just as these countries do, and all learn it from childhood. European's come to the US and keep their terms, phrases, and accent. Why must the black community conform to the non-urban standard... dropping their terms and phrases, losing their accent?