Race. We must talk about it, but we can't. Help, please?

Originally posted by TKDRL
reply to post by firemonkey

 

I just read it. Blacks are stupid, whites are mediocre, asians are smart. Blacks are criminals, whites are in the middle, asians, not much crime. Blacks are strong, whites in the middle, asains are wusses.

And you believe that is true?

reply to post by charles1952

I believe that the absurdity of racial hatred was most clearly shown in an episode from Star Trek in 1969. That episode, for those of you who were "Trekies" (and yes, I was), was "Let that be your last battlefield". It should be required viewing for all youngsters, hopefully before there views are shaped by the bigoted among the masses. For those not familiar with the episode, I suggest you peruse the writeup in Wiki:
en.wikipedia.org...
Today's racial hatred is just as absurd as it appeared in that episode, namely that the shade of one's skin somehow inherently is equivalent to their value as a human being. In a rather ironic way, Obama, who is half-white, half black, according to the media, parallels the two figures in the episode, with each one being half-white/half-black, but on opposite sides of their bodies. The deeper issue, however, is whether a person lives, acts, and interacts with others, as they believe that their "color" dictates. Without meaning any disrespect to President Obama, he has exhibited this trait of "adapting" to his expected behavior of "blackness", when he is addressing an audience of blacks, by using colloquial expressions "expected" of blacks, while he can address a predominantly white audience, with the "appropriate( in his mind) verbiage. Given that much of what one does, is choice, it begs the question, as to whether the expected behavior actually "creates" racial tensions.
Bigotry is entrenched in the belief that "they" are different from "us". Those differences are exaggerated by the bigot, and those differences are given more importance in the bigot's mind, than a person with a good heart would recognize.
In a way, the solution to wiping out bigotry was, perhaps without the author's intent, outlined in a book " Getting to Yes", by Fisher and Ury. Very simply, to come to agreements between two parties, they should focus on interests, not positions. Almost all conflict in the world today, results from parties standing by conflicting "positions". Positions are immutable, and when two parties stand by conflicting positions, no agreement can follow. By concentrating on interests, solutions to problems can be found that satisfy both parties. This is a rather simple concept, but one that politicians don't seem to understand, or are unwilling to adapt to. Of course, the media is culpable in maintaining racial tensions, as it viewership and readership are of paramount importance.
Rather than trying to bring people together, the current environment in our country is to keep the racial tension at a high level, because they believe that it will bring in the votes, and the votes result in maintaining power, and the resultant spoils of power.
In simple terms, the media, special interests, and politicians fan the fire of racial tension. It certainly does not take a genius to see that.

Well, I suppose I'll throw my two cents in the center jar and watch it clink around a bit. lol.... Grats on a good thread, BTW Charles. Your posting and skill for handling combustible topics without a fire is getting better all the time.


Since we're all being honest, then let's truly be honest. We're all racist. (cue dramatic moment with pin heard falling from across the room)

It's me, you and the guy down the street. Whatever one's own race, we're all hard wired to be, to some extent, racist. It's a real and true phenomenon they are finding and establishing with M.R.I. scanning and other study methods in controlled circumstances.

Human Kinds in the Brain: An MRI scan of racial perception

I'm sure someone can go backtrack the specific studies, as it references more than one and it originates with a NYT's piece on the topic. It's laid out for easy reading and seeing what they mean and why. I've been cooking in the sun doing home improvements all day and just don't have the energy for the depth in supplying material from each at source, ATM.

It's as basic as instinctual reading of others faces for threat before determining identity or other intent as other studies have shown our minds do a great deal more than some may realize. It's hard wired, ancestral, deep roots instinct and functioning tho.


Now the question, and the only question I think really matters on this, comes in after accepting the above and continuing science showing the human physiological response which is doing this. Are we, as individuals, beyond taking in the natural classification our minds are doing as anything automatically negative or threatening?

I think it's something a % really have transcended in every way. Most, like me, work to get there with varying levels of challenge, while others have rather odd thinking in embracing the worst as if we were still Tribal and visual identification meant life and death. Odd ducks in the pond, to be sure.

Originally posted by firemonkey
Were you hassled because you are white (which i'm assuming) or because you were an outsider.

Probably a bit of both. But during the day, everything is peachy keen. I'll go there during daylight hours no problem.

Even my friend told me to stay away at night because he had overheard some things. When I asked what, he replied, "Hey I gotta live here, I'm not saying a thing!" He thought I would probably have a confrontation. He was probably right.

reply to post by firemonkey


How did that even get a star.......

I find it ridiculous, I suppose I am somewhere between white and black on the books scale.

Does that sound like I believe it is true?

This thread can be an opening of hope and progress or at least an attempt at understanding ourselves better.
This Trayvon Zimmerman thing has become polarized by our usual self-interested selves.
What illustrates the polarity so much is the fact that this incident is not even between a white man and black person, and the country still is polarized. Just like the OJ trial became polarized.

But something has to give. Something has to enter our hearts that will transcend our own selfishness. That will go beyond race and ethnocentric selfhood to something we all can grasp and hold onto that makes us forget ourselves and actually open up the possibility that we can love each other, or at least respect each other better, despite our differences.

What that could be I don’t know.

Maybe God, truth, or love itself, I don’t know. But it seems we are so locked up in this world of polarity and drama that whatever, if anyhting will save or change us seems yet so distant. We may be as a species addicted to conflict. I hope not, but somthing has to arrive in our enviroment to cause change or we may be in a world of trouble.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


Precisely....

And another thing, all this Hippie "can't we all get along" is becoming very tiresome.

No we can't, We never have! and if statistics tell us anything; we can't get along as couples, families, business partners, bowling teams or rock bands. How do we expect to "get along" when our tribes fear each other, won't or can't communicate and harbor a basic distrust of anything or anyone that's different.

It's not a matter of intellect because we can discuss it with the www. and the anonymity it provides imo we really don't want a cooperative society; we want competition even to the point of killing each other. It's not our fault that even as technologically advanced as we seem to be; deep down, we are a primitive, brutal, savage species barely out of the damn trees.

reply to post by SLAYER69


the difference is that with out the media and the press there would have never been a trial for Zimmerman. his actions wouldn't have even been questioned. Your comparing apples to oranges. yes both kids but completely different circumstances.
The issue is identification me being a Black man i know due to prior situations confrontations with white people never end up in my favor. When it comes to Police I have no Civil rights im looked at as a thug or goon from the get go. its when i speak or they See my name on my license that they attitudes change because i have a foreign name.
And its way worse in florida. Its amazing how that kid was judge because off his Facebook page and the fact that he smoked weed thats %80 off the teenagers i know.
i see post on ats all the time about civil rights and the constitution and people being afraid off what the government is doing. All they are really doing is just Turning everybody black ( terrible schools,terrible food, no legal guns = black people). Laws like stand your ground. which work out for the survivor off the conflict. Trayvon martin had the right to stand his ground if he felt threatened by zimmerman he did not have to run home he had the right to defend him self if he felt his life was in danger. Which also applies to zimmerman after the fight started who ever survived won.

Originally posted by TDawgRex
reply to post by firemonkey

 

As I am sure you are aware, sometimes it is hard to express yourself on a forum. Ya type, ya post and a bit later you look at it again and think...Oh crap! But the damage is done. Charles usually puts together good threads and posts, one of which, I think that this is one.

By talking, we can come up with ideas to solve a problem though in this case it'll be decades I think. But it still has to be done. In a rational coherent manner.

If those who feel comfortable saying racist things around you make you uncomfortable. I say confront them, or maybe make them uncomfortable in some manner similiar. Though it'll probably lead to some sort of conflict.

Talking isn't going to bring about a solution to this and neither is anything anyone comes up with in this thread.

The only thing that will end this is time...old racist have to die, and then the next generation there won't be as many racist (this has already happened in two generations), and soon racists will be very rare and very localized to backwoods rural areas that will take a longer time to convert over.

The problem I brought up in this thread is that some people are going to prolong this process by making the ridiculous claim that white men are now discriminated against. This will cause resentment from those that are and have been truly discriminated against. And then even when the old racist die out, the resent will remain.

If, however, whites would just open their eyes and realize that they have never and will never go through what blacks and other minorities have gone through and instead of trying to claim discrimination against themselves they instead just acknowledged the travesties of the past and ride out the healing process without being douchebags and claiming they are the real victim....our race issue would be over and done with a lot sooner.

Originally posted by firemonkey


Talking isn't going to bring about a solution to this and neither is anything anyone comes up with in this thread.

Why Not???

.......be the change you wish to see.........

Originally posted by sonnny1

Originally posted by firemonkey


Talking isn't going to bring about a solution to this and neither is anything anyone comes up with in this thread.

Why Not???

.......be the change you wish to see.........

Because already in this thread, the theme is starting to be that "whites are the real victims" and "blacks bring it on themselves" or "the black stereotypes are true".

It was very apparent even from the OP, that is why talking isn't going to solve anything...at least not in this thread.

I already laid out the only solution...and that is for whites to stop claiming they are the victims of racism.

Originally posted by firemonkey
The only thing that will end this is time...old racist have to die, and then the next generation there won't be as many racist (this has already happened in two generations), and soon racists will be very rare and very localized to backwoods rural areas that will take a longer time to convert over.

By painting rural people as racists is racist itself. I see more racisim in the city than I do out here in the sticks. And the urban centers out number us rural folk. Hence, it will take longer to rid the cities of racism according to your own theory. But what does this dumb hick know, right? I live near Cleveland, not in it...and never will.

And slavery is not what this is about. I'm pretty sure that in the USA's history, pretty much everyone got [Snipped] on at some point in history. Most have moved on.

Originally posted by firemonkey

Because already in this thread, the theme is starting to be that "whites are the real victims" and "blacks bring it on themselves" or "the black stereotypes are true".

I believe that only you, TKRDL and myself have ID'ed our race, though I may have missed a few. Most of us also know history, but we live in the present. Can't really do a thing about the past now can we? Except learn from it. Which I believe is the reason for this thread.

Sometimes changes can come from one little old conversation.

Originally posted by TDawgRex

Originally posted by firemonkey
The only thing that will end this is time...old racist have to die, and then the next generation there won't be as many racist (this has already happened in two generations), and soon racists will be very rare and very localized to backwoods rural areas that will take a longer time to convert over.

By painting rural people as racists is racist itself. I see more racisim in the city than I do out here in the sticks. And the urban centers out number us rural folk. Hence, it will take longer to rid the cities of racism according to your own theory. But what does this dumb hick know, right?

I live near Cleveland, not in it...and never will.

And slavery is not what this is about. I'm pretty sure that in the USA's history, pretty much everyone got [Snipped] on at some point in history. Most have moved on.

We must live in opposite worlds...I am just speechless. You are honestly claiming that rural areas aren't racist...just wow. And again...who am I racist against...the race of "rural" people? Rural black communities are just as backwards as rural white communities.

And yes, sometime in history every group has been crapped on...but not as recently as 50 years ago...and in Hispanics case, currently.

Do you think whites are currently oppressed and/or discriminated against?

reply to post by firemonkey

Dear firemonkey,

I admire your passion and persistence, if not necessarily your conclusions. Oh well, that doesn't matter, I'm here to learn and to give others a chance to help teach me.

May I say first, that you have asked an excellent question. I should have considered it before I wrote my OP but didn't.

Depends on what you want the discussion to be about. If you want the discussion to be how to heal race relations in this country, then yes, I stand by my statement. I really don't know what other discussion you would want about race, so you would have to tell me that.

I don't see how any discussion could heal race relations. The problem is in too many peoples' minds. Perhaps it could eliminate some things that are seen as racist, but aren't.

And Affirmative Action was never meant to be "fair" to individuals, it was about being fair to groups, it was about forcing companies owned by white males to actually give minorities a chance at working and rising out of poverty.

If we no longer care about individuals, but only about groups, then should we treat Blacks as a group? Ignore the Black stars that make it in tough fields, like Dr. Ben Carson? I don't think this would be a useful path.

If a white male can prove that he didn't get a job because of affirmative action, it isn't because the company discriminated against him due to his race, it is because they are following the law by giving someone of an oppressed race a chance.

It looks like discrimination to me, the people who wrote that law thought it was discrimination for a good purpose, but hiring on the basis of skin color is discrimination if anything is.

So let's start the discussion here. Do you believe any race or ethnicity is still oppressed in this country? Do you think white males have ever been oppressed in this country?

If by "oppressed" you mean treated differently because of skin color, sure. There are some parts of the country where Whites, especially White women, are advised not to go after dark. Under the "treated differently" definition, we could include Catholics, the Irish and Italians, women, Chinese, just about everybody. Some get past it, some don't.

Again, you are only looking at the present and not the history. Do blacks and other minority groups score lower than whites on some tests? I'm sure they do...now are you going to say they score lower just because they are black or some other race/ethnicity....or are you going to look into WHY they score lower?

WONDERFUL! That's just what I want to do. Why do they score lower? Do they study as hard? Miss more school? Create more discipline problems? Why is it? Let's fix it. But if you say they score lower mainly because of discrimination, then I'm going to need some particular examples and causes.

I think I see the difference between me and you...it seems like you think blacks and other minority groups are just inherently inferior to whites...and I think they score lower on tests because of a history of oppression and discrimination.

This is the first insulting thing you have said. That's not bad for a thread dealing with a sensitive issue, but I still wish you hadn't said it. You are wrong and insulting in ascribing those thoughts to me, but honesty is a part of a discussion.

But only 50-60 years later, and you expect them as a whole to have moved past that and perform at the exact same level as whites...it is an unrealistic expectation.

So how long then,100 years? 200? I'm not affected by anything done to my grandfather. How long will that reason last? Why not forever?

So when you point to low scores, or crime rates, or "disruptive behavior"...

I am attributing them not to race but to individuals. A person who cannot read or write, or speak clearly, or believes crime is an honorable career, is going to have a very hard time in society. That is the problem, not that their grandparents had to use a different water fountain.

You've told me that I seem to be a racist, and that many things I say are very racist. As I've said, I want to learn. Please provide me with the list of some of the many racist things I've said.

About my hypothetical daughter. I think I would ask the most important questions first. Is she getting married out of some poor reason (rebellion, pregnancy, whatever)? Is the guy roughly up to her mental level? Does he have a way to cover bills if needed? Is he polite and respectful to her and to me? Do I see any of the subtle "signs of love" like hand holding, etc. Does he have some relatively main stream religion? Years ago I would have wondered if a bi-racial child would be a stressor, but I don't anymore. I'm pretty sure I'd have my mind made up before we got to skin color.

Originally posted by beezzer
This can apply to skin pigment, nationality, sports team support, school membership, club membership (ATS?) and any other type of group.

Fear drives irrational hatred.
Fear sparks the riots.
Fear creates the oppourtunity to enact vengeance.

Fear.

Quoted for truth....

This has been a very interesting and spirited debate/discussion. This thread [Not necessarily this topic ] is a great example of the type of membership participation that brought me to ATS in the first place.


Carry on

Originally posted by firemonkey
Do you think whites are currently oppressed and/or discriminated against?

As a whole, no I do not. In some neighborhoods yes. Discrimaination is everywhere and it won't go away. But I've been called all sorts of names, by people of all colors because I come from the country. Meh, it doesn't bother me. I know I'm better than they are.

See! There ya go! Ya got me! I'm discrininating agin' them thar city slickers!

firemonkey

alrighty then, if blacks are superior to whites (cause apparently nothing else will do), their community leaders can start by leading by example. by showing us dumb evil white crackers, how not to be racist.

any time now would be good.

reply to post by charles1952

Perhaps it could eliminate some things that are seen as racist, but aren't.

Ok, let's talk about that.

Apparently some white people, even some in this thread, think affirmative action is racist...I don't believe it is. It is a necessary and forceful method in order to give minorities a chance. If you don't think it is still necessary, then you must think that race relations are already healed and we don't have a problem with racism...which you actually just said isn't true.

So, you tell me...what do you think is something that is seen as racist but isn't???

If by "oppressed" you mean treated differently because of skin color, sure. There are some parts of the country where Whites, especially White women, are advised not to go after dark. Under the "treated differently" definition, we could include Catholics, the Irish and Italians, women, Chinese, just about everybody. Some get past it, some don't.

And there it is.

In your view, the only ones oppressed today are whites...and blacks need to just get over it.

/End of Thread

Originally posted by undo
firemonkey

alrighty then, if blacks are superior to whites (cause apparently nothing else will do), their community leaders can start by leading by example. by showing us dumb evil white crackers, how not to be racist.

any time now would be good.

Where did I say blacks are superior to whites?

How about equality?