Islam: What the West Needs to Know (full documentary)

Originally posted by logical7

Originally posted by FromMyColdDeadBrain
The West need to be very weary about the lying moslems' and their 'hudna'. All they need are the numbers and their 1400-year struggle to infect the world with their barbaric cancer will arc up again.

edit on 20-6-2013 by FromMyColdDeadBrain because: (no reason given)

the cancer of the world is mindless consumerism, glorification of greed and lust, the capitalist machine that is spreading and devouring everything in its path with the sole aim of PROFIT.
All this is not being promoted by muslims, muslims are resisting it and its being tried to be imposed on them by brute force. If muslims are doing anything, they are fighting a cancer with has already devoured you and made you braindead, making you a soldier/support of the cancer itself and also so blind that the world seems upside down to you and you call the "right" as "wrong" and the "good" as "bad"

Wake up!!

I am quite fascinated by what you say because Saudi supports and bankrolls capitalism by selling its oil to the West and the rest of the world etc and loaning vast sums of money into the capitalist system. As Islam is not only a religion but also a political system, how do you equate your views with Saudi and some of the more exotic and basically capitalistic places in the Islamic World, which are vying to become the stock exchange of that area and displaying their considerable western extravagance with palm tree islands and all the gaudy baubles imaginable till you reach the poor and worker areas.

I have to admit I don't believe a word of the simplistic view expressed by bespectacled converts in full muslim gear when they spout that Islam is about peace and not violent. I suspect there is an agenda to try to thrust this religion down the throats of the Brits. It won't happen because women have been liberated and many have too much self respect. If men want to follow some religious Imman teaching hatred that's up to them, its a pity they don't have other interests.

Islam is a bit like a new soap powder, some will buy it, try it and stay but many will buy it, try it and move on. From the converts I have seen that manage to get themselves on the tv many of them have either married into it and taken it up to please the husband - till they get divorced or wander into the twilight together happily, but many moreso the men than the women seem obsessive to the point of an illness or seem to think that by raving about Islam they have become someone to be noticed.

I am horrified when I look at the news from Islamic countries such as Syria at the number of young men that can't wait to get a gun in their hands and kill people they don't know, yet apparently worship Islam. I don't find it honourable with the way that women and children are subjected to mujrder and violence committed by insurgents

However I would say that its not only Islam that one should be warned about, when one reads the Talmud in parts its an eye opener and a pretty poor one at that.

reply to post by Shiloh7

how do you equate your views with Saudi and some of the more exotic and basically capitalistic places in the Islamic World, which are vying to become the stock exchange of that area and displaying their considerable western extravagance with palm tree islands and all the gaudy baubles imaginable till you reach the poor and worker areas.

not all muslims are following Islam. Islam is same for everyone, be it a monarch or poor working class but the monarchs won't accept that otherwise they have to become humbled and that they cannot do,

I have to admit I don't believe a word
of the simplistic view expressed by
bespectacled converts in full muslim
gear when they spout that Islam is
about peace and not violent. I suspect
there is an agenda to try to thrust this religion down the throats of the Brits.
It won't happen because women have
been liberated and many have too
much self respect. If men want to
follow some religious Imman teaching
hatred that's up to them, its a pity they don't have other interests.

strange that men are not the ones eager to convert and 75% converts are women.
You are skeptical and suspicious because you hold some prejudice and wish that its just one of that crazy trend that does not last.

You are actually frowning at the people(liberated women) who are excercising their freedoms that your society feels proud in upholding!

I am horrified when I look at the news
from Islamic countries such as Syria at
the number of young men that can't
wait to get a gun in their hands and
kill people they don't know, yet
apparently worship Islam. I don't find it honourable with the way that
women and children are subjected to
mujrder and violence committed by
insurgents

nobody "worships" Islam. Its ridiculous, just like saying someone worships christianity!!

So you judge islam by the wrongs that are happening in muslim countries?
do you judge the values and teachings of your society/religion/system by the same standard? By the wrongs happening around you?

reply to post by logical7


In essence this is about freedom of thought for me. Islam permeates human life completely. It regiments how many dress, behave what legal rights they have etc. Its all dictated and having watched a number of Sharia courts on divorce I can see the woman's point of view and the inequality of it all. It appears to me to profess ideals it then bends from the ankles upwards to get around.

But its main problem for many is its about keeping women unequal for the glory of men instead of a partnership.
You can argue that there must be a leader, but no one person knows it all.

Islam is the only religion in the world from what I have observed that has a civil war it cheerfully maintains and thinks the deaths incurred are some form of a glorification. Not content with bloodshed between Muslims, its preachers then leak their poisonous hatred into the rest of the world and teach that non-muslims must be converted or killed etc which many simple souls think they must, in order to be good Muslims adhere to and achieve.

I do have experience of Muslims because my cousin has been married to one for 25 years and I have had a lot of Muslim students so I can say that of the Muslims I mix with, they happily live by their religion's principles but they don't regard the blood-thirstness as healthy or necessary. Its a pity that this religion doesn't leave its feudal mentality behind IMHO. Its people seem to robbed of their individuality, especially the women - how do you find your wife in a sea of women all dressed the same?

I would also say to you that I know perfectly well Western culture has its wrongs just the same as Muslim culture - neither is a perfect model.

reply to post by Shiloh7

Excellent post!

Its people seem to robbed of their individuality, especially the women - how do you find your wife in a sea of women all dressed the same?

I would also say to you that I know perfectly well Western culture has its wrongs just the same as Muslim culture - neither is a perfect model.

Could not have stated this better myself. In fact, I was just contemplating the "most converts are women!" thing. And perhaps, just perhaps, it's because it RELIEVES women of the stress of having to juggle household, career, child-rearing, decision-making, and responsibility for things that SHOULD BE taken care of by a "helpmeet" a partner. With EQUALITY of respect, and separation/sharing of the multiple duties required to have a home and family.

Women are exhausted. They are discovering that 'feminism' and the "you CAN have it all" are non-sequitors. Women need to choose - husband and family? Or career and individual success? People can't do BOTH effectively - it has to be one or the other. One can't give 100% to multiple things, and women have discovered that their "dream" of being BOTH a career-woman AND a wife and mother doesn't work. You simply can NOT do both things at the same time and DO THEM BOTH WELL.

I know that I made a series of choices in relationships and my personal trajectory WITH THE GOAL OF BEING ABLE TO DEVOTE MYSELF TO MY CHILDREN. I tried several 'scenarios' - and each of them worked FOR A LITTLE WHILE. I managed to raise my children AND work (out of necessity, NOT by choice) and now they are grown and out on their own. I am blessed to have a husband who provides for me, and I am allowed to pursue my own trajectory inasmuch as I can now spend my days as a scholar-bee and a thinker-bee rather than a WORKER-BEE.

Women are perhaps converting to Islam to give themselves a RELIEF from the maddening tasks of being in charge of households AND business/income pursuits. Sad that Western society has, since the 60s "feminist movement" failed to deliver on its pie-in-the-sky pipe dream of "having it all." Turns out that's not what we really wanted - it only ADDED flaming batons to the juggling, plate spinning, rope-jumping, and partnering acrobatics we already had on our hands.

I'm all for mothers staying at home to raise their kids. Anything else is artificial and goes against the grain of our very make-up.

As for finding their wives among a sea of burkas - well, the women aren't ALLOWED to go out on their own without permission and an escort. Problem "solved." NOT.

reply to post by Shiloh7

In essence this is about freedom of thought for me. Islam permeates human life completely. It regiments how many dress, behave what legal rights they have etc.

how is freedom of thought restricted by any way of dressing etc? A routine, a framework to follow actually liberates the mind to think about other things and get free from the nitty gritty everyday decisions as they have been already defined.

But its main problem for many is its
about keeping women unequal for
the glory of men instead of a
partnership.
You can argue that there must be a
leader, but no one person knows it all.

women are not unequal.

Men and Women are different. Not taking into consideration these physical, emotional and psychological differences while interacting with them and behaving "equally" would be actually unjust.

A man sure can be a leader in matters that he has better knowledge/experience, similarly a woman can have more say in her field of expertise.

I would just put it in a joke that i heard, "people think all muslim men are terrorists and all the women are subjugated/oppressed when the truth is the other way round!!!"

what makes you think that muslim women are any different in the house than any other non muslim woman/wife?

Islam is the only religion in the world
from what I have observed that has a
civil war it cheerfully maintains and
thinks the deaths incurred are some
form of a glorification. Not content
with bloodshed between Muslims, its preachers then leak their poisonous
hatred into the rest of the world and
teach that non-muslims must be
converted or killed etc which many
simple souls think they must, in order
to be good Muslims adhere to and achieve.

now you are just repeating what you have been told and shown on tv. Muslims don't want to kill infidels or convert them by death threats!

Yes the muslim infighting is a disgrace but its not due to any teachings of Islam, its actually due to not following Islam as it should be and other powers and political interests are milking the conflict for their own ends. Be it USA or UK, be it KSA or Israel.
The infights are going to lead to divisions in Iraq, Syria and ultimately in Pakistan, the only muslim nuclear power that can challenge the Israeli Dominance of ME.
You being a Brit must know very well the policy of "divide and rule" employed during the colonisations.

the Muslims I mix with, they happily
live by their religion's principles but they don't regard the blood-thirstness
as healthy or necessary. Its a pity that
this religion doesn't leave its feudal
mentality behind IMHO.

how you end up categorising muslims you know as good and the ones you don't as blood-thirsty?
What about me? Will i become good once you know me?
The feudal mentality exists because they are being attacked.

Its people
seem to robbed of their individuality,
especially the women - how do you find your wife in a sea of women all
dressed the same?

do you lose your individuality if you wear a long overcoat when going out?
I don't have a wife yet but its easy and the wife can find me too. I can find my sister, mom, aunt just by looking at their shape and eyes, the way they walk, their voice etc. Also in a hijab the face is visible.

double post

reply to post by logical7


Did you see the new thread on Social Issues "The Rod for the Disobedient" - Wife Beating in Islam

Check it out. The OP has an 8-minute video - please watch it in it's entirety before commenting on it. This was released by an outfit called MEMRI - and I'd like to know what you make of it.

Also - here's a psychotic little home-video showing an abusive man attacking his wife for interrupting his "singing"...
VIEWER WARNING: REAL domestic abuse caught on tape
synopsis - for those who choose not to (or can't) view it: the husband is chanting or singing, and the woman (seated on the floor in the still-shot) starts to chime in. I don't know what she's "saying" - is she insulting him? Calling him a pig? Or is she simply "joining in his song"?
I don't know. He jumps over to her and beats her up while the "cameraman" or whoever else is there is LAUGHING while he stomps on her head and sits on her....

After this outrageous, repettive assault, she jumps up, screams in RAGE at the top of her lungs and runs out of the house - her husband runs after her. What will he do to her when he catches her?


I don't know where this took place, or when, but it's appalling. I would ask if anyone can understand the language they're speaking (with their mouths, NOT with their behaviors)...??

reply to post by logical7

how is freedom of thought restricted by any way of dressing etc?

Are you serious??

In the West, school children are often required to wear a uniform to school - to suppress their 'uniqueness' being visually represented. CLOTHING is a part of self-expression, and it is VERY IMPORTANT to people's sense of integrity and sovereignty over their own minds and ability to project their "personalities" without having to speak.

Jewelry, tattoos, colorful clothing, hairstyles, choice of footwear, style of fashion - ALL SPEAK ABOUT the WEARER'S personality. To force a woman to cover herself (or to convince her that it's "morally reprehensible" that she allow her hair, arms, legs, face show) is oppression. Choice of costume has been part of human behavior since "time began."

I'm sorry, but when I see women covered completely in burkas - some with even their EYES obscured with a woven "grill" to conceal them - I can NOT BELIEVE they are doing so voluntarily - they are doing it out of FEAR OF BEING BEATEN or raped or shunned or cut off from society. Again speaks to the self-control of men being lacking - just I can't believe those women are choosing to wear that disturbing getup out of "morals" ANY MORE THAN I CAN BELIEVE that Muslim men are so out of control that they go berserk if they see some skin. Maybe if they were "used to it" they wouldn't behave like salivating rapists.

Tell me, logical7, do you find my current avatar "offensive" or "immoral"? You know my personality and beliefs well enough now not to "judge me" based on my "representation" of myself in my chosen avatar.

in the West, people are not ALLOWED to conceal their identities when in public. It's too threatening. "Masks" are used by people with evil intentions - "not showing one's face" is a sign of either SHAME, or a desire to NOT BE IDENTIFIED. Disguise is the world used. And it's SUSPICIOUS.

reply to post by wildtimes

Women are exhausted. They are discovering that 'feminism' and the "you CAN have it all" are non- sequitors. Women need to choose - husband and family? Or career and individual success? People can't do BOTH effectively - it has to be one or the other. One can't give 100% to multiple things, and women have discovered that their "dream" of being BOTH a career-woman AND a wife and mother doesn't work. You simply can NOT do both things at the same time and DO THEM BOTH WELL.

EXACTLY
a muslim husband provides all that and has a better chance of being a long term partner(there are ofcourse jerks too but much less)
a woman gets the emotional security just by knowing and watching the dedication of a muslim husband towards his family.

A woman is also naturally more inclined to seek sipiritual meaning in life and what better than Islam which gives that meaning and raises womanhood and family to the highest priority. Respects a mother 3 times more than the father.

As for finding their wives among a sea
of burkas - well, the women aren't
ALLOWED to go out on their own
without permission and an escort.
Problem "solved."

well, apart from the joke you made. You should know that women are allowed to go out on their own, just a man accompanies them during long travels, to care for their comfort and security.

reply to post by logical7

A woman is also naturally more inclined to seek sipiritual meaning in life and what better than Islam which gives that meaning and raises womanhood and family to the highest priority. Respects a mother 3 times more than the father.

What better? How about mutual regard and respect that has NOTHING TO DO with religion?

My husband treats me like a princess. He has a huge amount of respect for me. No Islam required.

And I'm sorry, really, but I just CAN'T equate imposed dress codes with individual respect and reverence. My brain won't do it.
Forcing a child to dress in things they don't like is KNOWN to squelch their development and confidence. I let my kids choose their outfits from the time they were old enough to have a preference (making sure, of course, that they weren't running around nude).

Some families are comfortable with nudity amongst themselves - call me prudish, but no one gets to see me NAKED except my husband. And I haven't seen my kids naked since they were about 8 or 9. Privacy is honored in our household. We DO have modesty norms here. Europeans are much more "relaxed" with nudity than Americans - although pockets of "nudist camps" and "colonies exist" MOST PEOPLE have no interest in attending them.

I personally don't WANT to see people naked. Ick.

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by logical7

 

Did you see the new thread on Social Issues "The Rod for the Disobedient" - Wife Beating in Islam

Check it out. The OP has an 8-minute video - please watch it in it's entirety before commenting on it. This was released by an outfit called MEMRI - and I'd like to know what you make of it.

Also - here's a psychotic little home-video showing an abusive man attacking his wife for interrupting his "singing"...
VIEWER WARNING: REAL domestic abuse caught on tape
synopsis - for those who choose not to (or can't) view it: the husband is chanting or singing, and the woman (seated on the floor in the still-shot) starts to chime in. I don't know what she's "saying" - is she insulting him? Calling him a pig? Or is she simply "joining in his song"?
I don't know. He jumps over to her and beats her up while the "cameraman" or whoever else is there is LAUGHING while he stomps on her head and sits on her....

After this outrageous, repettive assault, she jumps up, screams in RAGE at the top of her lungs and runs out of the house - her husband runs after her. What will he do to her when he catches her?

I don't know where this took place, or when, but it's appalling. I would ask if anyone can understand the language they're speaking (with their mouths, NOT with their behaviors)...??

edit on 21-6-2013 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)

i watched the video in the thread, did you? And did you read the replies. What wrong do you find in the video?

The video you posted is just disgusting!!

reply to post by logical7

i watched the video in the thread, did you? And did you read the replies.

YES I watched the video! Why would I have pointed you to it without watching it myself first?
I read the entire thread, including dolluka's response that contained the video I just cross-posted here for purposes of THIS THREAD...Islam: What the West Needs To Know

What wrong do you find in the video?

What is WRONG with it? Uhh.....the concept of violence against "women who MIGHT BE disobedient" !
The utterly ridiculous concept that BEATING PEOPLE "teaches" them to BEHAVE. I honestly can't believe you even had to ask. Can NOT believe it. :shk:

Are you serious? VIOLENCE IS NEVER OKAY. It does NOT make people "improve". I didn't beat my kids, either. I would NEVER tolerate being hit by a man, not even ONCE. I'd be gone, and pressing charges.

reply to post by wildtimes

Jewelry, tattoos, colorful clothing, hairstyles, choice of footwear, style of fashion - ALL SPEAK ABOUT the WEARER'S personality.

externalising ideas is a very western thing. Have you seen asian teens getting a tattoo or a piercing to show rebellion?
Why you think muslim women don't have jewelry, colorful clothes, hairstyles etc?
Do you think they always are just covered up?
They are muslim but they are also women, they also behave like giggling teens during their teens, its just that unrelated men don't get to see it. They love wearing beautiful things and showing them off to their girlfriends.
Why does the outside unrelated men need to see it?
If you wana see how muslim women behave, join them and watch them and maybe you will change your views.

reply to post by logical7

Have you seen asian teens getting a tattoo or a piercing to show rebellion?

Yes. We have Asian teens here, you know. We also have every other ethnic group.

Why you think muslim women don't have jewelry, colorful clothes, hairstyles etc?

Because of the media, I guess - videos that show them in burkas. I do realize that some American Muslims choose not to wear the hijab at all, let alone the burka....are they shunned? In the WEST they are not.

Do you think they always are just covered up?

Well, in the west, we KNOW a woman is Muslim if she DOES cover her head with a hijab. I can't say how many I've seen who are NOT wearing that "badge of belief", because they blend in with everyone else. I have seen two women on the media with uncovered heads - one is the journalist who made the CNN Opiniion from an Exhausted Muslim Woman,
and the other was in one of the videos that has been posted around here somewhere with a bunch of Westerners saying "I am a Muslim". One woman had a full scarf on, the other did not.
So, again, I don't know. But I suspect that Muslim women in the WEST don't feel COMPELLED to do so. In other countries however, they apparently ARE compelled, to varying degrees, depending on the location and "sect"? I don't know.

You tell ME!

Do you think that all Western women who have colorful clothes, hairstyles, jewelry, make-up, tattoos, etc are all whores?
Are all trying to SEDUCE someone? Some of them are. MOST OF THEM ARE NOT.

It's only seen as "rebellion" to get a piercing, tattoo, hairstyle or wardrobe if the child has been CONTROLLED beyond their comfort zone. My kid wanted to try "dreadlocks" when he was 9. So we did his hair in dreadlocks. It lasted about a month. He wanted to pierce an ear. I let him. Now he doesn't bother with it. He wanted a tattoo. I did not object.

Sometimes he wore his hair long, other times he had it cut to suit his current "exploration of his own identity."

We are GIVEN BODIES for this life - why not celebrate that? Why not decorate them? Our bodies doesn't belong to anyone else but us.

There are pockets of Somalian and Sudanese refugees here - the young women ALWAYS were their hijabs at work or school. Is someone MAKING THEM DO IT? I don't know. But family pressure is profound. How many muslim kids - like the girl in England who was changing into Western clothes and make-up when she was 15 or 16, and her parent's MURDERED HER?

REBELLION is NORMAL for teenagers. It's an important part of growing up. It passes - and usually the youth becomes an adult who is more confident and self-assured for having been given that latitude to "experiment" with their identity.

Trying to prevent it is what leads to PROBLEMS with relationships. Being relaxed and accepting of a youth's efforts to "find themselves" - being SUPPORTIVE of that exploration - is good parenting. The child knows they are safe and loved, whatever they decide to wear or whatever music they want to listen to. They outgrow MOST of those "phases". It's the people who are abused and controlled that turn into sociopathic, violent, hateful adults.

Originally posted by logical7
the cancer of the world is mindless consumerism, glorification of greed and lust, the capitalist machine that is spreading and devouring everything in its path with the sole aim of PROFIT.

Sure. This, too, is a societal sickness. But it hardly approaches the same level of 'incurable' virulence Islam does.

For example, there can be 'healthy' degrees of consumerism- there can be moderation. There cannot, however, be 'moderate Islam' - a Western coined term for those moslems who peacefully coexist with non moslems - as it flies in the face of the edicts of the Qûr'an. In fact, moselms who commune with 'the enemy' are either doing it in perdue until they have the numbers to start enforcing their demands (i.e., the Islamisation of the society in which they reside) or are themselves contravening Islamic teaching, making them no better than the "infidel", in the eyes of Islam's god, and thus subject to the same punishments.

You cannot compare a desire of human beings to partake in an economic system, be this system wholesome or otherwise, to a dogma that preaches the expunction of all that does not genuflect to its intolerant whims. Apples and oranges.

reply to post by wildtimes

What is WRONG with it? Uhh.....the concept of violence against "women who MIGHT BE disobedient" ! The utterly ridiculous concept that BEATING PEOPLE "teaches" them to BEHAVE. I honestly can't believe you even had to ask. Can NOT believe it. Are you serious? VIOLENCE IS NEVER OKAY. It does NOT make people "improve". I didn't beat my kids, either. I would NEVER tolerate being hit by a man, not even ONCE. I'd be gone, and pressing charges.

i have to conclude that you did not understand the video!
It was advising not to BEAT!
It was not advocating beating every wife! It was rather promoting communication and peaceful resolution and if not the showing displeasure by sleeping seperate and then a very symbolic beating and not a beating to hurt or take revenge etc.
And it was for something that is threatening the harmony of the family, when the wife is wrong and refusing to see her error even after talks and explanations and that too with a piece of cloth or a tooth brush!!

Nobody needs to beat you as you are understanding and smart but say a wife who runs to mall for shopping and spends all the money when they have a baby and need all the things like baby food etc and when the husband tries to explain and talk to her about her spending habits she refuses to change and when all other attempts fail, i guess even u would be fine to let her be smacked with a tooth brush if it would make her see the seriousness of her mistake. Right?

reply to post by logical7


Wrong. The way to get her to see the seriousness would be to take away her credit cards and give her an allowance and a list. And she has no business being a mother at all if she is that reckless and selfish anyway!

This is one of the reasons I believe in living together BEFORE marriage. That way you get to know the person's patterns, behaviors, tendencies, habits, and thoughts - by watching, talking, asking questions, and working TOGETHER to make a life both can enjoy as partners.

The video describes varying levels of CONTROL, logical7. I know lots of women who PRAY that their husbands will leave their beds. Sex isn't supposed to be used as a "tool." Neither by women withholding it for "punishment", nor by men.

Are Muslim women allowed to use contraceptives? Are they allowed to say, "No, husband, I will NOT have sex with you whenever you want it!"??? Shaming, ridiculing, 'symbolically' beating someone, whether with words or objects, is WRONG. It does NOT build strong families. It builds resentment and hatred.

Yeah, the handkerchief thing is cute. Like someone else said, it would be more of a game, like towel-snapping or tickling or pillow fights. But that is NOT what either of those men said. Neither of them suggested being kind, compassionate, fun, or willingness to sit down and actively listen to the woman's concerns.

Control has no place in marriage. Period.

reply to post by wildtimes

This is one of the reasons I believe in living together BEFORE marriage. That way you get to know the person's patterns, behaviors, tendencies, habits, and thoughts - by watching, talking, asking questions, and working TOGETHER to make a life both can enjoy as partners.

are women a commodity to be tried and tested before buying and they should come with a "one year return policy"??
A man loses nothing when a "live in" does not work out but a woman loses a lot physically and emotionally with each failed attempt and the best years of her life get spent in these failed attempts.

I do not agree with a "live in" arrangement because its too much in favour of a man's wishes and against what a woman wants unless the woman is so brainwashed as to believe that she is getting a great deal in a "live in" relationship.

I do agree in a couple meeting and communicating to understand each other before they marry.

Shaming, ridiculing, 'symbolically'
beating someone, whether with words or objects, is WRONG. It does
NOT build strong families. It builds
resentment and hatred. Yeah, the handkerchief thing is cute.
Like someone else said, it would be
more of a game, like towel-snapping
or tickling or pillow fights. But that is
NOT what either of those men said.
Neither of them suggested being kind, compassionate, fun, or willingness to
sit down and actively listen to the woman's concerns.

maybe you missed the initial part of the video.
Why would anyone go to the last means of a symbolic beating when talking and listening will solve the problem?

The video is addressing a very small part of a family life that may never even happen to majority muslims families. You cannot paint all the muslim husbands as doing that. Muslim men are also loving and caring human beings. Don't buy into the propoganda of dehumanising muslims.

reply to post by wildtimes

Are Muslim women allowed to use contraceptives? Are they allowed to say, "No, husband, I will NOT have sex with you whenever you want it!"???

using contraceptives is debatable in Islam, some forms of it are ok and some not.

A wife can sure refuse and its between the husband and wife but a muslim wife knows that her husband has needs and she cannot just disregard them. A marriage is supposed to be based on understanding. Similarly a man cannot refuse and disregard it if the wife needs emotional support and a listening husband some times.

reply to post by logical7

are women a commodity to be tried and tested before buying and they should come with a "one year return policy"??
A man loses nothing when a "live in" does not work out but a woman loses a lot physically and emotionally with each failed attempt and the best years of her life get spent in these failed attempts.

You don't know what you're talking about. ALL RELATIONSHIPS must be tried and tested before buying.

A man loses nothing? So in your view 'women' ARE a commodity to be thrown out if the situation doesn't "work out"?
So, he didn't really care about her to begin with, he just wanted to see if she'd do his bidding? You think people don't get hurt by marrying the wrong person - a person with whom they discover they are not compatible after all?

The best years of a woman's life come AFTER she has made choices in her own best interest, raised her children to adulthood and has the time and energy to devote to her own personal growth without having "dependents". AFTER she has toiled to raise those children, to keep the home in order, to work with her husband to divide the business of "family raising".

I can't talk to you about women anymore. Or parenting. You refuse to hear a woman's voice - a voice of experience. I'm telling you that RESPECT never includes "punishment". It brooks no "suspicion of intended disobedience". A woman is NOT A MAN'S SLAVE. She is entitled to her own mind and to live up to her potential. If a man drags her down into a cesspit of shame, control, ridicule, 'discipline', and "forced obedience" ESPECIALLY if she is forbidden to work outside the home or get an education suited to her intellect and interests - that is no life at all.

Any man who thinks his wife "might be thinking of being disobedient" is an insecure bastard, a control freak, and a deficient partner to begin with.