Islam: What the West Needs to Know (full documentary)

reply to post by wildtimes

The "fear" YOU are talking about is fear of "Hell" and "God's wrath and rejection" of someone who may not follow the "rules" correctly. It's NOT the same thing, at all.

you think its not "real" for me its "very real" and so its the same thing. I don't have the luxury of a belief in many chances. I hope you get absolutely sure about it in this life. Btw i am not scaring you. I am just trying to let the enormity of it hit you! If there's just one life then things change a lot. I consider you wise enough to understand that.

amassed an
army to go and conquer Mecca

so going back home from where he was wrongfully forced to leave is a crime?
I too don't want to discuss this with you. He is a Prophet, he came with a religion and he did things that were needed to defend the religion he brought as it is to be the last revealation through him as the last Prophet. He did not come in a peaceful place and reasonable people see the circumstances too before judging actions and they also don't believe outright lies from hate sites.
I think we are done for now, until you actually hear your historian hero "Karen" about him.

reply to post by logical7

He did not come in a peaceful place and reasonable people see the circumstances too before judging actions and they also don't believe outright lies from hate sites.

Ah. So, your knickers are in a twist again over this.

You just said I was a reasonable person in your earlier response - and that you gave me the benefit of the doubt. But now? I'm "unreasonable"? And you did NOT tell me whether the website I asked for your opinion about was a "hate site" or a "real site."

Okay fine. Cut me off. Whatever.

reply to post by logical7

I don't have the luxury of a belief in many chances.

Only because you don't want to.
If you did any real research into it, you might be alleviated of your burden. The "chances" are not a luxury - they are a remedial opportunity to get it right. If you get it right this time, no worries. But if you get it wrong, you'll still carry on tryiing.

WE ALL GET THERE.
Fare well, then, logical7. Do your best. That's all we can do.

reply to post by wildtimes

The "chances" are not a luxury - they are a remedial opportunity to get it right. If you get it right this time, no worries. But if you get it wrong, you'll still carry on tryiing.

are you willing to take the full blame of everyone believing you if it does not turn out the way you expect?

reply to post by logical7

are you willing to take the full blame of everyone believing you if it does not turn out the way you expect?

What?

That is a ridiculous question. I never said that anyone has to 'believe' me. What kind of a question is that? No one has said I'm some kind of "prophet", and they never will.
I'm no prophet.
I'm just a single soul, a woman, thinking about these things.

What???? Take it or leave it.
Your guy's "revelation" doesn't add up for my individual soul. Every other person in the world is free to decide what they think.

I think that the Abrahamic religions are counter-productive.
How hard is this to comprehend, log7? Really????

Wow.

reply to post by wildtimes


don't get me wrong, i am not troubling you. I am just asking some harsh questions.

What? That is a ridiculous question. I never
said that anyone has to 'believe' me. What kind of a question is that? No
one has said I'm some kind of
"prophet", and they never will.
I'm no prophet.
I'm just a single soul, a woman,
thinking about these things.

i know you are not a prophet.
I am just questioning the extent of accountibility/responsibility of one's actions. You are promoting your ideas and beliefs and so should you be held responsible if someone believes you and it turns out that it was not true.
according to my religion and me as its very logical, the answer is NO
the other part is how would you feel that you were the reason that people got mislead although you are not objectively accountable?

I do know you and i may ask you harsh questions. I have nothing against you, i do get offended when you criticize the Prophet i revere especially when what you say is false but its my weakness and i am working on removing it. Maybe i get offended more with you because i expect you to be better than that. I don't even mind others posting from anti-islamic sites but when you do that it just crumbles the image of you being "reasonable" and objective. You are not as objective about islam as you think you are.

A question, did you study about islam as much or with equal curiosity as with say buddhism?

reply to post by wildtimes

I think that the Abrahamic religions are counter-productive. How hard is this to comprehend, log7? Really????

how much of that thinking is due to your beliefs?
I have no problem comprehending, i am just challenging your stand and asking questions, nothing personal. If you feel bad or threatened or crticized then i will STOP.

reply to post by logical7

A question, did you study about islam as much or with equal curiosity as with say buddhism?

So far, yes. I've only just begun studying Islam. I spent 4 years studying Buddhism (so far, at least - I still study it). I even practice it in many ways; and that has led me to my current standpoint.

And no, I will not "practice" or "try out" Islam. No way, no how. I am curious about it - in fact the other day I was so pissed off at you I picked up Karen Armstrong AGAIN to start RE-READING it. (It got rained on in a monsoon-like downpour yesterday , so now I have to wait for it to dry out.)

As for me using "anti-Islam" sites, you are deliberately forgetting that I have ASKED YOU and the board if the sites are legitimate or not!!!! You STILL haven't answered me whether that last one is "legitimate" or "Islamophobic" -- how many times do I have to REPEAT to you that I DON'T KNOW WHICH ONES ARE TO BE CONSIDERED PROPAGANDA?

I've been on ATS for about 3 years, and I've learned that certain news outlets are pure propaganda - by investigating them and looking at sites that argue/refute/debunk what they say. The answer is somewhere in between; I'm getting better at discerning which news sites are "biased" or "propaganda", and which are LESS SO.

reply to post by logical7

how much of that thinking is due to your beliefs?

Most of it is due to SCIENTIFIC ADVANCES in understanding our world - including what we DON'T KNOW -
I posted this in another thread this morning, but I'm going to share it with you, too, here and now:

Yesterday I was reading Smithsonian Magazine's June issue, and it had a fascinating article about Dark Matter and Dark Energy.

Do you know how much of 'the Universe' we actually "know about"? FOUR PERCENT. That includes molecules, microbes, atoms, and things we can't see, AS WELL AS the things we DO see, feel, touch, smell, taste, and hear. Including the stars. We know next to NOTHING about this grand design. We are to it as an ant is to the planet.

Lisa Randall’s Guide to the Galaxy

The famed cosmologist unveils her latest theories on the invisible universe, extra dimensions and human consciousness

The current estimate is that 70 percent of the universe is dark energy and 26 percent dark matter. Which adds up to 96 percent. Meaning that what we see and know adds up to a measly 4 percent.

Four percent! The invisible 96 percent apparently keeps the universe in gravitational equilibrium, preventing it from collapsing on itself or dissipating into virtual nothingness. But we know almost nothing else about it. The problem has been that the dark stuff doesn’t seem to interact with the 4 percent we know in such a way that gives us a clue to its nature.

And, did you know this?

Microbes: The Trillions of Creatures Governing Your Health


You're not just human. There are countless creatures living inside your body...and they govern your health and happiness

Scientists are just now beginning to recognize the importance of the vast community of microbes that dwells inside us


We tend to think that we are exclusively a product of our own cells, upwards of ten trillion of them. But the microbes we harbor add another 100 trillion cells into the mix. The creature we admire in the mirror every morning is thus about 10 percent human by cell count. By weight, the picture looks prettier (for once):

Altogether an average adult’s commensal microbes weigh about three pounds, roughly as much as the human brain. And while our 21,000 or so human genes help make us who we are, our resident microbes possess another eight million or so genes, many of which collaborate behind the scenes handling food, tinkering with the immune system, turning human genes on and off, and otherwise helping us function.

That one was from the May issue.
Someone wrote a letter to the editor (titled The Perils of Germophobia in the discussion section), and said:
"I see our approach to bacteria in and on our bodies [from the article above] as identical to the way we treat the rest of our environment.

We seek to eliminate that which we do not understand, to replace complex biological systems with simplistic monoculture.... "

There's SO MUCH we don't know - and more we are finding out every day. NONE of it is in your Koran, logical7.
See what you're missing out on, by not "thinking outside of your box"?

reply to post by logical7

i am just challenging your stand and asking questions,

Fine by me! I'm telling you my stand and answering your questions.

nothing personal.

Whatever.

If you feel bad

Bad? Define "bad"? You mean "guilty"? "sad"? "frustrated"? None of those apply. You don't make me feel "bad." I'm not "bad."

or threatened

threatened with WHAT? You have nothing to threaten me with.

or crticized

well, you certainly DO criticize me, but, whatever. I criticize you back!

then i will STOP.

That's entirely up to you. What's NOT up to you is claiming you "made me" feel any way at all. I am the one doing the feeling, logical7 - it's up to me. I own my own mind, and I know it pretty well. I do enough self-inquiry - it's not your job. It USED TO BE my "job" to help people self-inquire, and gain some insight. I'm pretty good at it, too (according to my clients) - but you are not my client, you have not come to me seeking advice. And I have not come to you seeking "guidance" or "counseling" on the state of my soul.

I have only been asking questions (of you and other Muslims) so I could get a better understanding of Islam from people living it. Your contributions sort of, erm, did their thing and then stopped. Why won't you tell me whether the last site I sourced and asked your "expert" opinion on is "real" or "propaganda" Islam?

You are not my keeper, nor my dad, nor are you my master, or guru. You have no "power" to "make me" do or feel anything at all.

reply to post by wildtimes

And no, I will not "practice" or "try out" Islam. No way, no how. I am curious about it - in fact the other day I was so pissed off at you I picked up Karen Armstrong AGAIN to start RE- READING it. (It got rained on in a monsoon-like downpour yesterday , so now I have to wait for it to dry out.)

who is asking you to "practice"??

Maybe it got rained on because thats not the right book about Islam. It gives a historical perspective of what people did and thought God is like but Karen wrote other books specifically on Islam, she even has some videos on youtube if you want to watch.
Honestly i find history books tiring, i even read her "History of Islam" by skipping fast just to get a rough idea. I did watch her videos of her talking about her book "History of God"

As for me using "anti-Islam" sites, you
are deliberately forgetting that I have
ASKED YOU and the board if the sites
are legitimate or not!!!! You STILL
haven't answered me whether that
last one is "legitimate" or "Islamophobic" -- how many times do
I have to REPEAT to you that I DON'T
KNOW WHICH ONES ARE TO BE
CONSIDERED PROPAGANDA?

i think my reaction to it is enough hint for you to know what that site is.
Its your responsibility to figure out which sites are "legitimate"
isn't it strange that you tend to take information from any site and want muslims to refute it?
You should know that there are more hate sites about Islam than sites giving legitimate information.
Jihadwatch, answering-Islam, religionofpeace, wikiislam etc are all hate sites.
I expect you to be a better researcher than that, i don't mind when someone like FF or other Christian posters post from these sites, they obviously have a bias and these sites provide them confirmation for it.

Maybe you can try this site
islam.uga.edu...

reply to post by logical7

Dear logical7,

Sorry to intrude into your conversation with wildtimes, but you wrote something that intrigued me.

isn't it strange that you tend to take information from any site and want muslims to refute it?

I don't find it strange, let me explain.

In law or in science, when an issue is to be resolved, all the evidence available is considered. A hypothesis is disproved if there's an instance when it's not true. A person is found not guilty if there isn't evidence beyond a reasonable doubt.

Wildtimes is correct in looking at all the evidence available, pro and con. It would be wrong for her to get all of her information from pro-Islam sites, without considering evidence opposed. It is proper for her to bring up evidence from anywhere on the anti-Islam side to see if it's valid. Where can she find such information? From Anti-Islam sites. Why is it strange that she should ask Muslims to refute it? One, they have a deep knowledge of Islam, and two, they're motivated to defend it.

Sounds reasonable to me.

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by charles1952

Hey Charles!

But then your scenario entails getting ALL the information beforehand, and then if the question is not resolved, asking muslims. What I've seen often here is that someone gets the information from anti-islam sites, then doesn't ask anyone to refute it, but instead says "Look what these people are doing", and then someone refutes it.

Even in the case of wildtimes, who after finding a link or a piece of information now asks "refute this" instead of saying "this is true" (kinda opposite to your scenario still, as it follows the idea of guilty until proven innocent), she's not looking for the "pro-information" first.

Which is odd, because the "pro" information isn't hidden at all. A simple internet search resolves most of the questions in this thread (except, I suppose in the case of where anti-islam sites have drowned out any neutral or pro-islam sites for the searches of specific keywords, although in that case, skipping forward to the second page or third page, or simply adding words like "rebuttal" or "response" to the search works).

Which begs the question, where is everyone finding all these anti-islam site information from? Did someone quote and link them in an email? Did someone message it to them in some instant messenger (who are these people, and how did THEY come across this information?)? Did they actively go searching for it (but how could they, if they didn't even know those specific keywords and whether they had a positive or negative understandings), or they are simply searching a generic "islam evil" (which is kinda skewing their opinions from the start), or they're simply checking up new articles on anti-islam sites they already frequent.
I know that wildtimes got to the video in the OP through the "related videos" of another (superficially anti-islamic) video someone posted here, but what of the rest?

More curiously, then, who are these people on ATS who post these anti-islam and anti-muslim sites and videos? Are they someone who got the information from somewhere else, like above, or are some of them part of a concerted effort to infuse this site with islamophobia and bigotry?

If one is looking for Islamic sites about Islam, sites which present information, rather than simply rebutting anti-muslim sites, some suggestions are:
www.islamawakened.com...
(which I recommended to wildtimes before, I wonder if she perused it..it has many interesting articles on Islam, as well as a multiple translation quranic index, useful for someone wishing to study it indepth without knowing arabic)
www.islamicity.com...
www.islamreligion.com...

I may not agree with every opinion on those sites, but they're useful resources, certainly better than unchecked anti-islam sites.

reply to post by charles1952

In law or in science, when an issue is to be resolved, all the evidence available is considered.

yes all the "evidence" available is considered not a biased/bigoted interpretation of evidence by an obvious hater. Right?
The hate sites take an incidence and deliberately twist the interpretation to show the good as bad and vice versa.
Like when wildtimes posted from that site as to how peaceful and tolerant pre-islamic arabia was and how Muhammad pbuh came and started touble!!
It is so off reality that its ridiculous and a reliable history source will clear it.

If wildtimes wants to visit these anti islamic sites then she is free to do so but then she also has to visit pro islamic sites to find a balance and filter the truth out.
You are doubling her work. I am suggesting that she reads authentic sources and not anti or pro interpretations.

Why is it strange that
she should ask Muslims to refute it?

if i find a site about USA that says things like, "they eat their babies" should i come to you to find out or should i use my own brain too?

How would you feel if i constantly bring up things like that to you and demand clarification? And then claim that i don't know which site is "legitimate"!!
I would welcome any genuine querries but i expect the use of common sense too before putting the work of refuting every non sense that those sites want to propogate on muslims.

reply to post by babloyi

Which begs the question, where is everyone finding all these anti-islam site information from? Did someone quote and link them in an email? Did someone message it to them in some instant messenger (who are these people, and how did THEY come across this information?)? Did they actively go searching for it (but how could they, if they didn't even know those specific keywords and whether they had a positive or negative understandings), or they are simply searching a generic "islam evil" (which is kinda skewing their opinions from the start), or they're simply checking up new articles on anti-islam sites they already frequent.

This response is to You and Logical7 both.
Frankly, I'm sick of you all telling me that my research skills are lacking. For crying out loud, I have a Master's Degree in the behavioral science field, and I KNOW HOW TO RESEARCH. I've been researching, both in libraries and online, for DECADES, people, and it is NOT my responsibility to determine which sites are bona fide when I have MUSLIMS here to tell me what THEY think is a legitimate site.

Where am I "getting" the sites? By doing research online. Starting with search strings like 'Muhammed in Medina"... "Mecca before Muhammed"... "History of Islam"...."Ottoman Empire"..... Crusades,.....
sects of Islam............Islam in India......Sharia law.......Da'wah.....ETC ETC &&&

I can't think of anything else to type in that I haven't already done.
I generally consider .edu sites to be better than typical sites - and I use Google Scholar. I know how to find scholarly journals and peer-reviewed articles.

STOP with accusing me of being lazy, inept, poorly educated, bad at research, or simply "clicking" on links from other sites to "read what I want to hear."

I'm TIRED OF IT.
NEITHER of you know me, and obviously you've decided to bash me rather than HELP me. I'm sorry I ever asked. I thought members of this site would be more forthcoming, genuine, intelligent, educated, and enthusiastic to HELP SOMEONE learn something.

God knows I've tried to give you ALL the benefit of the doubt. Forget it, then. I'll learn on my own.

As for Karen Armstrong, yes, her history books are TIRING, because they are REAL RESEARCH. They are NOT books like Islam for Dummies or "a short introduction to Islam for Westerners."

I WAS THE ONE who found the khalifah.com website and logical hadn't even SEEN IT! IT LOOKS LEGITIMATE TO ME, and is promoting world-wide conversion!!!!

Screw it. You all are unhelpful, and in light of the fact that MANY sites and videos and lectures and authors have pointed out that "sleeper cells" or smaller immigrant populations are allowed to LIE to non-believers UNTIL SUCH TIME AS THEY HAVE STRENGTH IN NUMBERS TO TAKE OVER - I don't believe ANY of you even know what you're talking about.

Kgnow is the ONLY one who has credibility. You others are simply like typical "church-going" Christians who don't know about their OWN religion's history.

Log: I KNEW you were going to blame the book being rained on with some superstitious crap. I even thought it myself when I found that and THE OTHER BOOK I'M READING, called 'Dirty Wars', BOTH soaked through.

Screw it. I'm done here.
Here is the answer, then, to this interminable, redundant thread titled:

What the west needs to know about Islam:
WE NEED TO KNOW WE WILL NEVER KNOW WHAT WE NEED TO KNOW ABOUT ISLAM.

Excuse the hell out of me for thinking Muslims could help out.

reply to post by logical7

I would welcome any genuine querries but i expect the use of common sense too before putting the work of refuting every non sense that those sites want to propogate on muslims.

Labeling me as as "hater" or looking for "haters" and "anti-Islam sites ONLY" is what is ridiculous.

READ MY RESPONSE to babloyi. At least she provided a few suggestions. All you do is tell me the sites I find are "hate sites."

Whatever.
I am done even trying. I have to conclude, then, that Islam - just like fundamental Christianity - is ILLogical, its "real" history and meanings buried in the dust of history, its sects fractured, its followers controlling, many of its tenets barbaric, and in general unfit for 21st century life. I can't even figure out how to "gauge" the sincerity and intentions of a Muslim.

Thanks for playing.

reply to post by wildtimes

Oh dear...

I didn't accuse you of any such thing at all. As I continuously repeat, every time I post a reply to you (although I missed it last time), I don't know you at all. My only exposure to you is through what you post here. I can only make any "judgements" off that. If I misunderstand something from one of your posts, it is because of what is written. Perhaps I implied in my previous post that you hadn't read the islamicawareness link I had provided earlier, again, that was simply based off my observations of what you wrote in this thread: After you had repeatedly complained about not having any islamic sites suggested to you, I provided it, yet there was no response to that site mentioned, and no follow up questions or comments at all. It is possible I misjudged that, but again, I derived that only from what you wrote.

I made no critique or judgement on your educational background. I have only a layman's understanding of the behavioural sciences (my post-graduate education was in a completely different field, and I'd say fairly irrelevant to the discussion at hand- I certainly don't believe it gave me super-research powers), and thus don't even talk about them in the context of this discussion.
It is a bit tiresome to have to walk on eggshells to talk to you, but still I persist. I don't know how much clearer I can make it: I am not out to "get you", it serves me no purpose to call you names (hater or whatever). I do exactly what it appears that I am doing in this thread- responding to statements and questions, and supplying my own perspective.

You seem to think it significant that you found this khalifa.com website as opposed to one of us, but I'm not sure you completely comprehend the significance- I've never heard of it, I don't follow it, nor do I ascribe any authority to it, and I believe the same is for logical. Are you implying that it is somehow MORE representative of "the truth of Islam" than what we have been portraying? I assure you, that website is just as obscure as it seems to be.
You say there are "MANY" sites and videos and lectures talking about sleeper-cells and immigrant populations and lying and taking over, but there are many more (actual islamic sites, not ones with obvious islamic biases like what you mentioned) that say the opposite.

I'm not suggesting, nor did I ever suggest that websites like khalifah.com don't exist, and again, I don't believe logical did either. But you seem to conflate their importance, and the importance of their content to more than it is.

You say you started this thread in the spirit of tolerance and understanding and to counter the fear, but the exact intention of these sites and videos and lectures you speak of is to SPREAD the fear. Many of these lecturers and videos and such are by people who have been PROVEN to be frauds, or have been designated as hate speakers (Robert Spencer and Pamela Gellar, for example two more "lecturers" from your initial video, have recently been banned from entering the UK because of their promulgation of hate speech). There is an obvious and in-the-face comparison of these bigots and haters to the pre-war media attitude to the jews, with the same sort of lies (they are permitted to lie, they don't follow our laws, they're a law unto themselves, they seek to take us over from the inside, etc.).
Now again, in case you take this the wrong way, I'm not saying YOU are a hater, or a bigot or any of those things, but the people you are talking about, these "lecturers" and "videos", THEY are.

For a more statistical and solid piece of evidence, I suggest an experiment for you. Perhaps you know of the Alexa website? It ranks websites on the internet in terms of traffic and importance and visits, etc. If you go to their website, and check up the rankings for your khalifah.com and compare them to the three I provided, you'll see that:
Khalifah.com is ranked 340,992 worldwide
While islamicity.com is ranked 48,791
and islamreligion.com is 102,021
Islamawakened is 881,579, but that is more of a scholarly website (their Quran page is formatted to have something like 30 translations, including those that are deprecated and untrustworthy, shown for each verse of the quran, verse by verse, as well as word by word translations, not one for easy reading or anything).

For comparison, Stormfront.org, a bigoted, white-supremacist, neo-nazi site, has a ranking of 19,481.
(Ranking is such that number 1 is the most popular website on the internet).

Just as you claim that I do not know you, likewise, you do not know me. I have no idea what you mean by calling me 'like typical "Church-going" Christians who don't know about their OWN religion's history". Thank you very much, I have investigated Islam fairly deeply (although I generally confine myself to the scripture when it comes to faith- while history is interesting to learn from, my religion isn't history), and I am curious as to how you came about to the conclusion that Kgnow knows better, considering I debunked most of his "points against" islam through the scripture or islamic scholarly tradition itself. Kgnow may perhaps have been knowledgeable about the specific extremist (Wahabi/Salafi from the looks of his references) sect he learnt from, but he certainly isn't indicative of Islam as a whole, nor is his sect "truer" or "closer" to the Quran than any other.

reply to post by wildtimes

There's SO MUCH we don't know - and more we are finding out every day. NONE of it is in your Koran, logical7. See what you're missing out on, by not "thinking outside of your box"?

whatever you posted in your post about dark matter,dark energy, commensals etc was known to me. Very nice of you to assume. This is the problem and babloyi has pointed it out, you know me only by what i post and i know you by what you post.
Your assumption that i am missing out something is false. In Islam God is not against Science, you may think that way because you impose a framework of christianity of past on Islam.
Qur'an is a Book of spiritual lessons and it does use some scientific facts to make the reader start thinking/reflecting. It however is not a Book of Science and i don't use it to learn science. It however makes me think, like a verse saying that "God makes fire out of green trees" it may have many meanings like simply firewood and if i think more then fossil fuel. Also wood is a creation that is impossible to duplicate in labs, so that verse is making me admit by science that there must be a Creator.

Have you thought about the fire that you light? Is it you who make the trees that fuel it grow or are We the Grower? We have made it to be a reminder and a comfort for travellers in the wild. So glorify the name of your Lord, the Magnificent! (Surat al-Waqi ‘a, 71-74)

reply to post by wildtimes

Labeling me as as "hater" or looking for "haters" and "anti-Islam sites ONLY" is what is ridiculous.

i never labeled you as hater. I said that about people who made those sites.
You had done what you did and i commented on it. If you want to be taken as genuinely unbiased then put a bit more effort and find better sources to post.

At least
she provided a few suggestions. All
you do is tell me the sites I find are
"hate sites."

i did suggest you a site and it is ".edu"
i read your reply to babloyi and there i read that you even question our integrity and in simple words doubt that we are liars!!
How can you be so sensitive when you percieve some criticism and yet accuse others so harshly and then cry that you are being wronged?

I am done even trying. I have to
conclude, then, that Islam - just like
fundamental Christianity - is ILLogical,

you never tried, you just made it appear that way! Sorry for being harsh but i see it that way. I had expected genuine openess and i only saw a polite narrow mindedness and an already made up mind.
Islam is what it is, you have a right to conclude any opinion but thats just your opinion and its a very ill-informed one.

reply to post by babloyi


All right, then, babloyi.
I apologize for misinterpreting your words (again.)

You have always been fair to me, and I have always been sincere with you (and everyone else on this forum).

I have been pretty "beat up" for the last couple weeks or so for my "beliefs" and stance - not by you, but certainly by logical7. When that happens, I do indeed get defensive. I realize that you don't read ALL of my posts in all of the threads I participate in (obviously, unless you were a stalker or spy, which never entered my mind, EVER.)

I look at lots of threads and do NOT contribute, I just read. Just the other day, dolluka posted a British video here (it was in Sk0rp's new thread

Islamization of the West = God's payback for the creation of Modern Israel.

I have NOT posted in that thread - but I watched dolluka's video, and it says the same thing that Kgnow was saying. .... so, whether it's "real" Islam or not - it is what MANY PEOPLE SAY and I'm sure many MORE believe.

I started looking into Islam when it was election season some years back, and some politician sent out a mass-mail hate-filled piece of crap propaganda that said the SAME THING and it was blowing around in my yard.

I thought to myself, "WHAT?!!!" So, I looked it up. I started looking it up. And you know what my immediate decision was? THIS IS PROPAGANDA CRAP.

That was when I started my FIRST thread regarding Islam, Propaganda using Shariah Law vs US Constitution. WHAT?!!

It got very little attention, and was less than one page.
I would appreciate it VERY MUCH if you would look at it to see how I entered into this entire 'quest' to find out more.

I am NOT saying "refute THIS, you crummy Muslims...Ha!"
no. not at all.
I AM saying, "can you all please help me understand, because I think this is bull-poop, but I want to be sure. Sorry for all the negative stuff we've been told, I want to know more."

THAT IS MY MESSAGE.