Islam: What the West Needs to Know (full documentary)

reply to post by logical7

Similarly a man cannot refuse and disregard it if the wife needs emotional support and a listening husband some times.

She needs those things ALL THE TIME. Your libido, your "male needs" come SECOND to the relationship. How self-centered and egotistical. A wife needs emotional support and a listening husband. PERIOD. End sentence.
Not "some times". At ALL TIMES. Always. Is that clear to you now?


Third time now I was about to walk out the door, in shorts, with my head uncovered, to go buy some beer for later, while my husband is at a class. In a car, by myself. But I want to add this:

If a man has "needs" he should work to have a HAPPY wife, a WILLING wife. If he's a jackass to her and only provides emotional support and listening "sometimes", he's not likely to have his "needs" met unless it's by force or coercion.
And THAT, my friend, breeds resentment, hatred, and disobedience.

Treat her every day like it's your FIRST DATE. Be kind, be generous and loving, show appreciation, help her out, be there to contribute to raising the kids and taking care of the home. SHOW HER you LOVE HER. A healthy relationship is not about "need" - it's about intertwined lives between equals. Make sure you are behaving in a way that she WANTS to have you in her bed.

Ask your mom, your sisters, your aunt. ASK THEM if they think this is the way to make a relationship happy, to make it work. And then come and tell me what they said when you presented the two scenarios

A) a submissive wife who only gets to need support "some times", and is obliged to fulfill the "man's needs" and set aside her own wishes and life - and held captive by not being allowed to earn her own way in the world?

or

B) a truly equal, respectful partnership where BOTH PARTIES know the strengths, weaknesses, limitations, personalities, hopes, dreams, and goals of the other. And BOTH work equally to provide as much as they can toward the other 'realizing' those hopes, dreams, goals, and needs.

You know nothing about how to make a relationship work if you don't recognize those things as the truth. And relationships ARE work.

reply to post by wildtimes


Fanatic barbaric people of every religion might abuse their loved ones,but certainly most religions condemn violence and abuse specially towards ones own family members...People usually interpret religions accordingly to suit their own desired agendas,this is been happening all throughout the history....I do not think that Islam is the perfect religion, but I am sure it has got some good advices which could be beneficial to people who are using it without being too sensitive about all the superstitious details..Same could have been said about most other faiths.

reply to post by wildtimes

You don't know what you're talking about. ALL RELATIONSHIPS must be tried and tested before buying. A man loses nothing? So in your view 'women' ARE a commodity to be thrown out if the situation doesn't "work out"? So, he didn't really care about her to begin with, he just wanted to see if she'd do his bidding? You think people don't get hurt by marrying the wrong person - a person with whom they discover they are not compatible after all?

I do know what i am talking about i am talking against a system that favours men more.

I respect women, its not me who is advocating to try them before marrying!!!

Are you saying all men who enter a "live in" relationship are actually ready to commit till marriage if it works out?
Are there any protections for girls/women who get "used" by casual live in relationships?

The best years of a woman's life come
AFTER she has made choices in her
own best interest, raised her children
to adulthood and has the time and
energy to devote to her own personal
growth without having "dependents". AFTER she has toiled to raise those
children, to keep the home in order, to
work with her husband to divide the
business of "family raising". I can't talk to you about women
anymore. Or parenting. You refuse to
hear a woman's voice - a voice of
experience.

thats your life and your opinions. I am not going to learn parenting or what a woman wants from you. I do that by talking to the one i am going to marry and learning everything about her that i can and discussing family life and parenting with her.

In my opinion the whole journey is the best time with a partner that understands and loves.

I don't see having a family and raising kids as a job to be done away with and then get the best times later!
I could be wrong, if we do stay in contact then i will surely either tell you that you were right or i could tell you that i lived my life my way and it worked out great and your experiences were very subjective.

reply to post by logical7

I don't see having a family and raising kids as a job to be done away with and then get the best times later!

I thoroughly enjoyed being a parent - but it is hard work. It's the most important job a person can have.

Yes, people get hurt in "casual" relationships. I would not recommend co-living unless it is an effort to establish compatibility. "Casual" relationships are not the stuff of living together.

Having and raising kids is a life-altering event. It is not "done away with", ever. But having raised children to maturity with them safe, educated, able to function in society, and happy is a day-by-day, moment-by-moment commitment. Lethargy and indifference have no place in it.

So yes, once a woman can sit down and relax (a thing that is RARE when raising small children), knowing that she fulfilled her obligations to see to the survival and nurturing of the precious beings she brought into the world, and reflect on a job well-done, it is very satisfying.

My phone is next to me at all times. My kids are grown and out in the world, and I am STILL HERE, 24/7, at their disposal, for continued 'parenting.' I can breathe easier now than when they were born, or 2, or 3, or 10, or 15, or 19....

but make no mistake, the love of a mother, the concern for her children, DOES NOT GO AWAY, ever.

I recall when I was delighted to be pregnant with my first child; I went to classes to prepare for childbirth and early mothering. The instructor asked if there were questions. I raised my hand and said, "I'm really worried that my baby is okay. Does that ever go away?" and she looked me in the eyes and said, "No."

And she was right. It NEVER goes away. I still count on my OWN mother for advice, support, companionship, and commiseration in the heart-break of worrying for your child who is suffering, or worrying for their safety when they are given "wings" and are no longer under my care day in and day out.

Oh, and by the way -
while I was out I was thinking about the jewelry, colorful clothing, hairstyles, etc. issue. Indian women, in my opinion, are the most beautifully dressed females on the planet. Their costumes are BEAUTIFUL. And yes, I've had exposure to many Indian women. I wish I could get away with dressing as they do - but I would look like a madwoman to do so here.

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by logical7

 

Similarly a man cannot refuse and disregard it if the wife needs emotional support and a listening husband some times.

She needs those things ALL THE TIME. Your libido, your "male needs" come SECOND to the relationship. How self-centered and egotistical. A wife needs emotional support and a listening husband. PERIOD. End sentence.
Not "some times". At ALL TIMES. Always. Is that clear to you now?

edit on 22-6-2013 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)

Third time now I was about to walk out the door, in shorts, with my head uncovered, to go buy some beer for later, while my husband is at a class. In a car, by myself. But I want to add this:

If a man has "needs" he should work to have a HAPPY wife, a WILLING wife. If he's a jackass to her and only provides emotional support and listening "sometimes", he's not likely to have his "needs" met unless it's by force or coercion.
And THAT, my friend, breeds resentment, hatred, and disobedience.

Treat her every day like it's your FIRST DATE. Be kind, be generous and loving, show appreciation, help her out, be there to contribute to raising the kids and taking care of the home. SHOW HER you LOVE HER. A healthy relationship is not about "need" - it's about intertwined lives between equals. Make sure you are behaving in a way that she WANTS to have you in her bed.

Ask your mom, your sisters, your aunt. ASK THEM if they think this is the way to make a relationship happy, to make it work. And then come and tell me what they said when you presented the two scenarios

A) a submissive wife who only gets to need support "some times", and is obliged to fulfill the "man's needs" and set aside her own wishes and life - and held captive by not being allowed to earn her own way in the world?

or

B) a truly equal, respectful partnership where BOTH PARTIES know the strengths, weaknesses, limitations, personalities, hopes, dreams, and goals of the other. And BOTH work equally to provide as much as they can toward the other 'realizing' those hopes, dreams, goals, and needs.

You know nothing about how to make a relationship work if you don't recognize those things as the truth. And relationships ARE work.

the things you said in bold are actually what i believe in and try my best to do.
I will go with "B" and yes i have learned it all from talking to women around me.
Also Qur'an talks about a husband and wife as garments of each other, who protect, beautify and hide and compliment each others' weakness.

Here are some verses

[30:21] Among His proofs is that He
created for you spouses from among
yourselves, in order to have
tranquility and contentment with each
other, and He placed in your hearts
love and care towards your spouses. In this, there are sufficient proofs for
people who think.

004.019
O ye who believe! Ye are forbidden to inherit women against
their will. Nor should ye treat them
with harshness, that ye may Take
away part of the dower ye have given
them,-except where they have been
guilty of open lewdness; on the contrary live with them on a footing of
kindness and equity. If ye take a
dislike to them it may be that ye dislike
a thing, and Allah brings about
through it a great deal of good.

[al-Noor 24:32] And marry those among you who are single (i.e. a man
who has no wife and the woman who
has no husband) and (also marry) the
Salihoon (pious, fit and capable ones)
of your (male) slaves and maid-
servants (female slaves). If they be poor, Allah will enrich them out of His
Bounty. And Allah is All-Sufficent for
His creatures needs, All-Knowing
(about the state of the people).

reply to post by logical7

the things you said in bold are actually what i believe in and try my best to do.
I will go with "B" and yes i have learned it all from talking to women around me.
Also Qur'an talks about a husband and wife as garments of each other, who protect, beautify and hide and compliment each others' weakness.

Cool
Then we're still on the same page.

reply to post by wildtimes

The instructor asked if there were questions. I raised my hand and said, "I'm really worried that my baby is okay. Does that ever go away?" and she looked me in the eyes and said, "No."

that almost made me cry!

maybe i can share a story that gives the extent of what the status of a mother is,
"a man took his old mother who could not even walk on his back to let her perform Hajj (the islamic pilgrimage) and did all the rituals by carrying her on his back. After he was done, he thought hope he had repaid all that his mother did for him.
He slept and dreamt that he is a baby and he peed at night on bed and his mother changed him and put him on the dry side of bed and herself slept on the wet part and that he did not even repay that one night yet"!!!

Mothers deserve the highest respect.

If there was only more like him.

reply to post by MidnightTide


Wow, yeah!!! Thanks for that. This is what I'd like to see going on all over the planet. I'm glad to see someone who is in authority is 'telling them like it is.'!!

I'd be giving that guy a standing ovation and trying to whistle through my fingers (rarely works, hehe, but I try!) even if I was the only one doing so.
I'll have to learn more about this guy - do you know much about him?
Thanks for this vid, MT!!

reply to post by wildtimes


maybe you will like this too

reply to post by logical7

Parts of it were fine and good. "Stop blaming America [Western Influence]" is a great message.

Other parts, no. I am not under "Satanic" influence. He even talked about how in America people who are Muslims are free to be Muslims without worry or fear. The other guy made a similar point:
How is it that Muslims who are being sheltered in Europe, taken care of, being supported in their freedom of speech, opportunities, and not starving to death or being killed by "rival sect members" are acting so abominally in those very countries that are GIVING them freedom, opportunity, sufficient food/shelter/medical care - are hating and killing those same people who have welcomed them?

"Satanic influence" explains why Muslims are welcomed? Sure, he talks about the pre-existence of vice LONG before America was even a country. That is the truth. But assuming that ALL WESTERNERS are under "Satanic" influence is ridiculous.

That's what I heard. It wasn't his "main point", but that one word "Satanic" I heard loud and clear.
It should be obvious why I'm "jumpy" and mistrustful. I'm tired of being told I'm an "Agent of Satan."

reply to post by wildtimes

But assuming that ALL WESTERNERS are under "Satanic" influence is ridiculous. That's what I heard. It wasn't his "main point", but that one word "Satanic" I heard loud and clear. It should be obvious why I'm "jumpy" and mistrustful. I'm tired of being told I'm an "Agent of Satan."

i expected you to be jumpy on it.
I don't think he meant only "Westerners" are under the satanic influence, he said all people are becoming more materialistic and that is evil.
I'l also like to clear that Islam does not blame satan for any wrongs, the whole responsibility is of the person.
Even Qur'an forbids it.

Do not squander your wealth
wastefully. The squanderers are
indeed Satan's brothers and Satan is
ungrateful to his Lord. (Surah Bani
Isra'il, 17:27)

i know you will agree that living a lavish lifestyle is a dream of almost all people(not just westerners) which in itself does not appear wrong but the road to make it possible may make a person "sell his soul(to the devil)"
A greedy person is never grateful, ungratefulness leads to arrogance and ultimately ruins the person spiritually.

reply to post by logical7


I found a(nother) website this morning that seems to echo at least some of your point of view - and I would be interested in your "opinion" of its quality. You really irritated me yesterday, BIG TIME with trying to throw Karen Armstrong back in my face - that was an underhanded, dirty tactic.

I don't have any way of knowing which "sites" or "imams" or "experts" or "videos" are propaganda or real. I have learned some things, but I feel nowhere NEAR ready to place my faith in ANY of them except for Karen. And I have not heard her speak to the ongoing unrest and conflict among Muslims themselves. Yes, she respects and acknowledges Islam's "real" meaning, but that doesn't change the fact that she's ONE PERSON trying to make a difference in a spinning morass of hatred, blame, vilification and continued "infighting".

This is one of the reasons I would like religion to go away altogether. It's just too divisive - Jews hating Jews, Christians hating Christians, Muslims hating Muslims, EVERYBODY accusing others of being "wrong" or "satanic" or "evil."

Anyway - here is the website. I just stumbled upon it - so don't attack me for asking if it's something you find 'genuine' or 'propaganda.' Please.
www.islamawareness.net...

reply to post by wildtimes

He even talked about how in America people who are Muslims are free to be Muslims without worry or fear. The other guy made a similar point: How is it that Muslims who are being sheltered in Europe, taken care of, being supported in their freedom of speech, opportunities, and not starving to death or being killed by "rival sect members" are acting so abominally in those very countries that are GIVING them freedom, opportunity, sufficient food/shelter/ medical care - are hating and killing those same people who have welcomed them?

maybe i have failed to tell you that i appreciate the West for many things. I did tell you that i wanted to come to USA to study. I loved you education system especially higher education and still do. I acknowledge the justice system to be much better.
The majority muslims in West do appreciate it. Its a small minority who is displaying their anger in a criminal way, the anger is due to the Foreign policy that is leading to deaths and sufferings of muslims at many places.
The general anti-islamic sentiments are just adding fuel to the fire by giving those angry youths more justification that they are hated for just "being" muslims giving them the push to do acts they wouldn't have normally done which in turn causes more fear about islam/jihad etc.
Its a self-perpetuating divide and sadly its widening.

Just an interesting observation wildtimes, you say that fear is not a good motivator but do you realise that its actually fear that shapes your understanding(misunderstanding) about Islam and not just you but majority of westerners. I understand the reason for that fear but did muslims really do anything to "start" this viscious circle?

reply to post by logical7

i know you will agree that living a lavish lifestyle is a dream of almost all people(not just westerners) which in itself does not appear wrong but the road to make it possible may make a person "sell his soul(to the devil)"
A greedy person is never grateful, ungratefulness leads to arrogance and ultimately ruins the person spiritually.

Yes, I agree to that. No one wants to have to struggle to survive, however. My goal is that no one is struggling.
Then we can all - all focus on the "higher thinking" that is philosophy, the meaning of life, etc.

But the fact that I'm sitting here drinking a beer and smoking a cigarette and STILL talking to you (which I honestly have come VERY close to stopping) should indicate that I am not under "Satanic influence" - just because I like bacon and beer and enjoy smoking and don't "submit" to what YOU think is "right living."

I'm not hurting anyone or hoarding things that others need. What bothers me is the idea that LEGISLATING the "removal" of "temptations" is considered okay by Islamic extremists.

Also, I wonder if your continuing to talk to me is somehow a "rehearsal" or an "exercise" in dealing with a non-Muslim woman, which you have every reason to learn to get better at. If your plans are to come to fruition.

I AM NO ONE's TOOL. I have been made a fool by trusting others from time to time, but I will NOT be used.

reply to post by logical7

Just an interesting observation wildtimes, you say that fear is not a good motivator but do you realise that its actually fear that shapes your understanding(misunderstanding) about Islam and not just you but majority of westerners.

The difference is that I have REAL REASONS - my OWN SURVIVAL - to fear Islam's increasing influence of the world. Every day more reasons and examples are in my radar.
Sure, I could ignore it and just sit in my peaceful neighborhood and not give a damn - but that would be irresponsible as a citizen of Earth.

I understand the reason for that fear

Good. The "fear" YOU are talking about is fear of "Hell" and "God's wrath and rejection" of someone who may not follow the "rules" correctly. It's NOT the same thing, at all.

but did muslims really do anything to "start" this viscious circle?

That is up for debate. I don't want to argue about it anymore, either. We will never see eye to eye on the "history" of Islam being "peaceful" since its inception.

If Muhammed had died like any other normal person who feels they have discovered some "truths" or "answers" - and not thought to have 'ascended to heaven on a flying horse', it might be different. BUT he BECAME A WARLORD and amassed an army to go and conquer Mecca and from there neighboring countries who were minding their own business. NOTHING sacred or divine about that, and no denying that he did those things. So, no, I don't consider him to have lived and died a "peace spreader." And I never will.

He changed his OWN TUNE before he died - in words and actions - and MUCH suffering resulted from it.
Sorry, but I won't accept any arguments refuting that. The Hadiths are just too many - like the sects of Christanity are too many - in their interpretations of things. As long as ONE PERSON can latch onto something in those texts and use it as an excuse to "oppress, control, subjugate, conquer and kill" other people - there is a problem.

reply to post by wildtimes

But the fact that I'm sitting here drinking a beer and smoking a cigarette and STILL talking to you (which I honestly have come VERY close to stopping) should indicate that I am not under "Satanic influence" - just because I like bacon and beer and enjoy smoking and don't "submit" to what YOU think is "right living."

well i have also come very close to stopping when you used an obvious hate mongering sites as your sources then i gave you benefit of doubt.
Well you having bacon and beer does not mean satan influenced you, its just how your society is and you didnt chose the place of your birth, if our places were exchanged maybe you would be following halal and i would be eating bacon and telling you that i don't think it harms anyone so its fine.

about legislature forbidding haram things, you must know that slaughtering cows is illegal in India, so you may desire to have beef if you ever visit but may not find it, so its the majority who make the rules.
Islam not just forbids having alcohol, it forbids serving and trading too.

Also, I wonder if your continuing to
talk to me is somehow a "rehearsal" or
an "exercise" in dealing with a non-
Muslim woman, which you have every
reason to learn to get better at. If your
plans are to come to fruition.

its not a "rehearsal"
i just like to talk with reasonable people. I wonder why you wonder so much? Habit?
Do you have a hidden motive to keep talking to me?? Maybe you want to convert me into a reincarnationist deist!! I AM NEVER GOING TO BE "THAT"!!

reply to post by logical7

i just like to talk with reasonable people. I wonder why you wonder so much? Habit?

Yes. Whenever I have dialogue with people, or relationships with them, ever since I was a young girl - I have always wondered "what makes them tick" (why they think like they do, and what their experience/intentions/motivations are.

It's not just a habit - it's my personality. I can no more cut it off than I could pluck out my eyes or cut out my tongue or pretend to be a dimwit.

reply to post by logical7

Do you have a hidden motive to keep talking to me?? Maybe you want to convert me into a reincarnationist deist!! I AM NEVER GOING TO BE "THAT"!!

Fine with me.

I don't care what you want to believe regarding faith - but I DO care if you are condemning me or other people, or tainting children's minds or wanting to "control" other people. You will not convert me to Islam, and I think you know that.
I don't want to "convert" anyone - I just want to dispel ignorance.

reply to post by logical7

Islam not just forbids having alcohol, it forbids serving and trading too.

Bummer for muslims, in my opinion. We have MINIMUM AGE LAWS for that. Adults are allowed to choose what they want. By the time they are adults, they have morals in place - or they don't. But prohibition does not work.

Are you saying that NO MUSLIMS ANYWHERE enjoy a glass of wine, or a beer? I know beer is not outlawed in India. I don't care that much for meat anyway. I prefer fish and shellfish, beans and cheese for my protein. But bacon? Who can not like bacon!!???? (And not that "weird" Canadian stuff - nono....American BACON! nomnomnom) I have bacon about 4 times a year. It's addictive, unhealthy, and DELICIOUS.