Islam: What the West Needs to Know (full documentary)

reply to post by logical7

I do have to give you some credit, logical7. At least you're sticking around, it seems like the others have left.

I said earlier, and I still believe, that in one sense this thread has harmed me. I have much more knowledge than I did at the start, which is a good thing. But I also am more worried about Islam and Muslims in the world, I'm going to have to watch myself for signs of pre-judging and distrust of entire groups, but it will be harder now.

I went to the website which wildtimes suggested. There are objectionable things there. I've also found discussions of Muslim influence over the education of American school children which frighten me.

This may be a bad mental position to take, but it seems the supporters of Islam have not yet made the case for their innocence and peacefulness. I hope they do and quickly.

I expect that you are not in a position to report ideas to influential Muslims, but on the tiny chance that you are, consider that the American mid-term elections are next year. Obama looks bad right now because of the scandals. It is possible that the Republicans will win the Senate. If they do, and the country elects a Republican president at the next election, I suspect that Muslims will wish they had not scared as many Americans as they have.

Obama has aided Muslims and provided special treatment for them. That time may be coming to an end.

reply to post by charles1952

I do have to give you some credit, logical7. At least you're sticking around, it seems like the others have left.

I said earlier, and I still believe, that in one sense this thread has harmed me. I have much more knowledge than I did at the start, which is a good thing. But I also am more worried about Islam and Muslims in the world, I'm going to have to watch myself for signs of pre-judging and distrust of entire groups, but it will be harder now.

Yes, logical7 deserves credit for hanging in there - I know it hasn't been easy for him - and we have not been easy ON HIM. I think the Boston and London violence and deaths have escalated everyone's mistrust and nervous anxiety.

I, too have much more knowledge than before, provided collectively by those participating in these threads scrutinizing (as opposed to 'bashing') Islam.

We are doing what Westerners do - learn. We were taught in school, first and foremost, HOW TO LEARN. Unfortunately now even the education system is turning away from arts, literature, humanities, and social subjects - without which knowledge many, many a "graduate" is going to venture out into a world they neither understand nor know how to deal with.

It makes me very sad, anxious, worried and perplexed. I don't think there's anything at all wrong with feeling, "Well, I can't really figure out what they're doing or what they believe, but I know some of them are hostile and some of them are peaceful and tolerant, so, I must suspect all of them until I get to know them personally. And if I do that, I may be hurt and betrayed for doing so!"

Again, I, too want the thank all the participants who have dug up websites and resources to help us ALL know more about Islam - including what we DON'T KNOW - and ALL OF US have things we don't know - including the Muslim members.

I believe it has been productive, and proACTIVE, for us to have been given this forum in which to discuss these very touchy subjects, and I'd say, "Beers on me, I've got this round!" but that won't quite work given the audience.

So, to the Westerners who pitched in: and hot bacon!

And to the Muslims and non-drinking Westerners: have a calm and peaceful summer!

Thanks everybody.
Your temperamental and outspoken, direct and pushy, but honestly well-meaning hostess,
~wild

@Charles
@Wildtimes
you will find many answers here, i hope u watch the 1st speaker and respond back, start from 15min mark.
I had asked Wildtimes before too but i don't know if she watched it.

Originally posted by logical7
reply to post by wildtimes

 

Here is an Islamic scholar from the US talking about renovating Islam and the difference of understanding between West and Islam, his name is Sheikh Hamza Yusuf and you may start from 15min mark of the video till his part is done.
Its not directly debunking the documentry but it will give you a better understanding.
I'l post other videos to debunk the video in OP too.

Okay, ladies and gentlemen.

This morning I am digging deeper into this "Khilafah" thing. THIS IS THE INFORMATION we need to know, really. Really. For realz.

Now, I have not been able to establish yet to what degree Muslims already living in the West want the "Khilafah" - but the idea is alarming, and we need to understand it.

This, guys and gals, is what the 'Arab Spring' was all about - not about "freedom" and "democracy" -- NO!! no nonono.
Not Even Close.

This is the result of the push for a United Islam Nation - bringing the Muslim Countries under one "Caliphate" - and insisting that EVERYONE living in those countries WILL FOLLOW SHARIA LAWS, regarding of their religions.

These appear to include dress code, diet, adherence to Muslim rules for women, ' compulsory military service' - and other aspects of daily life. This is very disturbing.

I urge everyone to look at these websites and read through them. ESPECIALLY this one - Khilafah.com - Building a Global Movement for Khilafah
Yes. GLOBAL.

There are tabs on the page that explain everything we need to know about how this particular movement - which was begun in earnest during the Arab Spring - intends to change the world.

Another is 1 MUSLIM NATION - Muslims For Uniting the Islamic World

Clearly, these sites are run by educated, articulate English-speaking people - not just some obscure Muslim newsletter from some underground and minimal effort.

I read through many of the articles on the first site, and suggest that all ATS members interested in the problems of our world LOOK AT THEM. There are tabs dealing EVERY ASPECT of their agenda - the Khilafah itself (Caliphate), Activism, News watch, Concepts, Analysis, Ramadan (I haven't looked at that one yet), and an ABOUT US page, which I've previously ex-texted (go back a page or 2)....

In this post I am sourcing their subheading "Non-Muslims" under "The Khilafa" tab, What are the rights and responsibilities of Christians within the Islamic State?

The Islamic system obligates in terms of the subjects whose affairs are obligatory to be taken care of, that it provides complete caretaking to everyone who permanently resides in Daar ul-Islaam, submits to the systems of the state and holds the citizenship of the state. The caretaking of the affairs is based upon the following fundamental bases:

Sounds not too bad with "complete caretaking" of permanent residents (ALL residents regardless of their belief system). Right?

Keep reading:

- Everyone who carries the citizenship of the state enjoys the rights and is bound by the Shari'ah obligations.

- It is not allowed for the state to distinguish between the individuals from amongst the subjects in terms of ruling, judiciary and caretaking of general affairs etc.. Indeed it is obligatory for the state to look at all of its subjects from a the same single viewpoint regardless of their race, religion or colour etc..

- The State implements the Islamic Shari'ah upon all of those who carry the Islamic citizenship whether they are Muslims or non-Muslims in the following manner:

a) All of the Islamic rules are applied upon the Muslims without exception.

Shari'ah law upon ALL CITIZENS, Muslim or not.

b) Non-Muslims and what they believe and worship are left as they are within the general system.

They are? Oh. Okay.....

Wait. What do you mean by that, please?

d) Non-Muslims are treated in regards to the matters of foodstuffs and clothing in accordance to the religions within that which the Shari'ah rules have permitted.

Which are........what?
Can't tell yet. Hmmm.....a little vague....
but THIS is very clear:

f) The states implements the rest of the Shari'ah rules and all remaining Islamic Shari'ah matters in regards to the Mu'aamalaat (transactions), punishments, testimonies, ruling and economic systems amongst others upon everyone.

The implementation of these matters is the same in regards to Muslims and non-Muslims alike. Similarly they are implemented upon those who have covenants (Mu'aahid) and those who have been granted security (Musta'min) in addition to all those who are under the authority of Islaam just as they are implemented upon the subjects of the state. This applies to all except for the ambassadors, messengers and those who are similar to them as they hold diplomatic immunity.

Pure theocracy.

continued.......

....continued from above....

- Accounting the rulers by the Muslims is a right from amongst their rights and it is a collective obligation that must be performed by them. Non-Muslims have the right to raise complaints in relation to the oppression of the ruler against them or if he does not implement the Islamic rules correctly upon them.

Non-Muslims can complain if the Islamic Rules are not correctly applied? What if they don't like the rules and want to change them?

- It is obligatory to completely guarantee the satisfaction of the basic needs of all the individuals of the state, individual by individual. And to guarantee the ability of every individual to satisfy his needs above the basic needs to the highest possible level in addition to the state guaranteeing to find work for everyone of its citizens, Muslim or non-Muslim.

It also guarantees spending upon the one who does not possess money, work or those upon whom it is obligatory to spend upon him. It will also take responsibility for the elderly and those who are disabled regardless of their religion or school of thought. The state active works to circulate the wealth amongst the subjects and to prevent it from being circulated amongst a specific group alone.

The state also provides education to every individual in accordance to the level required for the person to engage in the realities of life in two levels of education: Primary and Secondary.

It is obligatory to provide these to everyone without charge. It also opens the area of higher education up to all free of charge in accordance to the best of its capabilities in addition to providing all health and medical services to everyone without exception or charge.

So, socialized education and health care - but UNDER ISLAMIC RULE. Potential for indoctrination in education much?

As for military activity:

It is permitted for non-Muslim subjects of the state to fight the enemy alongside the Muslims but they are not compelled to do so. It is a condition that their fighting takes place under the banner of the Muslims and that they do not have their own specific banner or separate leadership. And if the fighting is against Muslims like the Buhgaat (those rebelling against the authority) then in this case it is not permitted for there to be amongst the ranks of the army any non-Muslims.

No non-Muslims to participate in rebellions. And if they CHOOSE to participate n fighting, they may not do so with their own banner or separate leadership. So, it's voluntary, but the non-Muslims have to fight FOR THE MUSLIM CAUSE (ISLAM and SHARIAH).

In the West, any sort of religion is allowed - and declared on enlistment for purposes of chaplain services, etc.

This is so disturbing and confusing. Anyhow, I'm just learning more....not an expert. It feels scary, though. For me. Thought you all might like to read these sites along with me and comment.

Maybe someone can start a new thread. This one will get buried, and these points are CRUCIAL to us understanding what is actually happening in the world.

reply to post by logical7
Okay, I watched his speech/presentation.

He talked about many things, but in particular I was intrigued by his call for "renovating" the Qu'ran......

and when I have suggested that, you said "No Muslim will ever agree to that!"

So, while I appreciate his very clear description of what is happening, and his awareness of the current problems....
now I'm back to:
"Why are you pushing for hardline traditional Islam, when it's been said by your own scholar/expert that Islam NEEDS to get with the 21st century program?"

In any case, I appreciate your continued conversation. I think we were at the point of shutting each other down and turning each other off entirely. I commend you for hanging in there.

Now. You wanted a comment back - what else would you like to inquire of me as to my reactions to the presentation?

reply to post by logical7


Also, I would like your comments regarding the website that I presented and Charles looked at as well.

It's quite disturbing to me. Can you please address it?

Thanks in advance.
Sorry for losing my cool over the last week. I'm frustrated....and I'm sure you are, too.

reply to post by wildtimes


For the record...
1.I will never accept islam in any way,shape or form!
2.I will never accept sharia law in any way,shape or form!
3.I will never "convert" to islam no matter what they do to me!
4.I will never deny Yeshua/Jesus as the Messiah!
5.I will read my KJV Bible whenever I please.
6.I will talk to people about the Lord only if they want to listen.
For the muslims...
1.I will never burn or desecrate their koran.
2.I will be kind and courteous to their followers.
3.I will pray for their people,especially for their children.

reply to post by mamabeth


Sounds fair to me, mamabeth.
Thanks for hanging in here and following the learning curve of this thread. Did you look at the links, or watch the video?

It's all a big mess. No question about that.

reply to post by wildtimes

He talked about many things, but in particular I was intrigued by his call for "renovating" the Qu'ran...... and when I have suggested that, you said "No Muslim will ever agree to that!"

he did not call for "renovating" the Qur'an.
He agreed that Islam needs renovation of the parts that have been falling apart or got corrupted over time.

You asked for changing Qur'an and remove verses that are bad/violent according to western opinion and i responded to the ridiculousness of the suggestion.

Btw you can watch videos of Hamza Yusuf on other topics.

Here is another tiny(2min) video about what real sharia law is and i would like your thoughts on it.

reply to post by mamabeth

4.I will never deny Yeshua/Jesus as the Messiah!

Neither will I!!

1.I will never burn or desecrate their
koran.
2.I will be kind and courteous to their
followers.

i appreciate that

3.I will pray for their people,especially
for their children.

i would respond to this one depending on what you pray

Now can i get an "Amen" on
"May God guide whoever among us needs guidance towards the Truth"

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by logical7

 

Also, I would like your comments regarding the website that I presented and Charles looked at as well.

It's quite disturbing to me. Can you please address it?

Thanks in advance.
Sorry for losing my cool over the last week. I'm frustrated....and I'm sure you are, too.

I had not been to that website before you posted it although i had heard of it and of Hizbut Tahreer, the organisation behind it.

I do support Khilafah but that does not mean i or any muslim automatically agree with everything on Khilafah.com.
The same can be true about me and other muslims supporting Sharia.
We do not support the Sharia that you are scared of.

Yes Islam has a dess code, dietary restrictions etc and muslims follow it and this could be a point of disagreement and worry for western people but the minorities living in muslim countries are already used to it.

reply to post by logical7

Yes Islam has a dess code, dietary restrictions etc and muslims follow it and this could be a point of disagreement and worry for western people but the minorities living in muslim countries are already used to it.

Being "already used to it" doesn't make it comfortable or right or fair or tolerant.

See the new thread I started here.
I welcome your response.

I'm glad that you are now aware of the Khilafa.com website, and I hope you will look through it and address the many issues that I'm SURE you will have an opinion about..
The site is, in MY OPINION, contributing to the strife.

reply to post by logical7

he did not call for "renovating" the Qur'an.
He agreed that Islam needs renovation of the parts that have been falling apart or got corrupted over time.

He said it needs to be a "living Qu'ran" - that it has to be looked at critically and re-interpreted to suit the times.

You asked for changing Qur'an and remove verses that are bad/violent according to western opinion and i responded to the ridiculousness of the suggestion.

Well, since your Hadiths are the interpretations that are used to form policy, then get rid of the psychotic. loathsome Hadiths! Condemn the ones that call for blood, slavery, rape, subjugation of women, conquest, and murder.

As for the video, it is an advertisement for a seminar. Have you signed up for it? Or did you attend?
Like in January I attended the seminar about Ethics in atheism, secularism, and religion?

I brought much of what I learned right here - and shared it with ATS. The vast majority of the information was pointing out the NEGATIVE aspects of EVERY RELIGION - mostly Christianity, but also included speakers who were Hindu, Muslim, Jewish and Agnostic/Atheists.

But people forget - or didn't notice - and so when at the time I was contributing those threads I was accused of being a demon, a witch, a "woman" and the cause of the fall of mankind, and an "anti-Christian basher",
now I am considered a heretic, an immoral Westerner, and an "anti-Islam basher."

Oh, and my Progressive views? Yeah, I'm a liar, a smear-campaign starter, a commie/nazi, a fascist, and other lovely and warm things.
None of it is true.

I want my own wiki page, to see how I'm portrayed by my smattering of 'readers' and the army of 'critics' who all want to send me to hell, make me into a villain, and shush me into oblivion. FOR NOW, I still have the right to say what I think.
My skin is getting thicker, but my frustration level is rising also.

reply to [url= by wildtimes[/url]


An island of reason in an ocean of delusion

reply to post by wildtimes

Being "already used to it" doesn't make it comfortable or right or fair or tolerant.

welcome to the world of "how it feels to live as a minority"
i am not comfortable watching idol worship or loud festivals or care about not ordering beef when with hindu friends etc but i have to adjust. Right?

Well, since your Hadiths are the interpretations that are used to form policy, then get rid of the psychotic.
loathsome Hadiths! Condemn the ones
that call for blood, slavery, rape,
subjugation of women, conquest, and
murder.

you are still looking for some simplistic, quick answer to "fix it all". Your belief that some hadiths call for the above itself reveal that you are demanding solutions without understanding the problems.
A simple example would be, prophet Muhammad pbuh said, "i was command to struggle till people accept One God.."(i am paraphrasing)
and if someone says no its, "i was commanded to FIGHT till people accept One God.."
who is at fault? The Hadith or the translator? An anti-islamic site would sure translate it as "Fight/war"
islamic scholars know it and have the eligibility to interpet it.

In a desperate attempt to know Islam western people end up making hate mongers as their source and i feel disgused at what those liars come up with to scare people, i honestly feel sorry for people who believe it but after a point i do feel angry at their blind trust and disregard for common sense!!

As for the video, it is an advertisement
for a seminar. Have you signed up for
it? Or did you attend?

its being organised at some places in USA. I am waiting for them to upload it on youtube.

reply to post by logical7

Your belief that some hadiths call for the above itself reveal that you are demanding solutions without understanding the problems.
A simple example would be, prophet Muhammad pbuh said, "i was command to struggle till people accept One God.."(i am paraphrasing)
and if someone says no its, "i was commanded to FIGHT till people accept One God.."
who is at fault? The Hadith or the translator? An anti-islamic site would sure translate it as "Fight/war"

Just like 'khilafa.com", you mean???
That website looks to me to be pretty pro-violence.

I understand that you are refuting these websites, log.

That does not change the fact that they exist! OR that since they do exist and are in English, and readily available on the 'web', they are igniting, enhancing, inflaming the feelings of fear that the non-Muslims feel.

The West need to be very weary about the lying moslems' and their 'hudna'. All they need are the numbers and their 1400-year struggle to infect the world with their barbaric cancer will arc up again.

Originally posted by FromMyColdDeadBrain
The West need to be very weary about the lying moslems' and their 'hudna'. All they need are the numbers and their 1400-year struggle to infect the world with their barbaric cancer will arc up again.

edit on 20-6-2013 by FromMyColdDeadBrain because: (no reason given)

the cancer of the world is mindless consumerism, glorification of greed and lust, the capitalist machine that is spreading and devouring everything in its path with the sole aim of PROFIT.
All this is not being promoted by muslims, muslims are resisting it and its being tried to be imposed on them by brute force. If muslims are doing anything, they are fighting a cancer with has already devoured you and made you braindead, making you a soldier/support of the cancer itself and also so blind that the world seems upside down to you and you call the "right" as "wrong" and the "good" as "bad"

Wake up!!

reply to post by mamabeth


How nice of you

Sharia is Islam as it's part of it. You can look at it as a way of life. Only your laws are part of your religion instead.
Very simple explanation though.

You would not life by a constitution, but by the rights and rules of your religion.

Allah=God and God = Allah in the Arab language.

I don't think it's really offensive to pray for them. But you might consider not telling them if you do.